A question for atheists

C

Confutatis

Guest
Is it obvious that the individual ceases to exist when the body dies?

Three rules:
1. Be sure you clearly define what "individual" and "exist" means.
2. Only obvious reasons, please. Personal beliefs are irrelevant.
3. No stupid answers, such as "because Christians are idiots".

Any takers?
 
No; in fact, there is documented evidence that suggests the contrary might be true. Without a functioning brain, however, I doubt that whatever part of an individual that might live on past clinical death would be capable of pondering his situation.

Oh - by "individual," I mean here the subject of experience, and by
"exist," I mean to be capable of observation.
 
NDEs are my evidence for there being a part of us living on after death and after personaly experincng one im almost certian we live on in one form or another.
 
NDE's are readily explained by the psychoactive substance DMT, which is produced by the pineal gland during extreme circumstances and trauma.

The individual can cease to exist way before the body dies, such as with the brain dead.

Yes, it is obvious in most circumstances, if obvious implies observation of the indications of personhood.

However, if the the body (more precisely, the brain), could be somehow resurrected in it's original form, I think the personality would be resurrected with it. In the future we may be able to scan a brain and build a working replica, thus attaining immortality.
 
My case for life after death weather your resurected or take on another form is that in some peoples lifes there is extreme suffering for long periods of time maybe all their lifes so there should theroretically be some recourse against this by way of being brought back to life to immortaly. I think that humans will end up bringing humans back to life rather than moving to a different form of existence. Life is truly evil if some of the suffering people have been through is the last word.
 
spidergoat said:
NDE's are readily explained by the psychoactive substance DMT, which is produced by the pineal gland during extreme circumstances and trauma.

The individual can cease to exist way before the body dies, such as with the brain dead.

Yes, it is obvious in most circumstances, if obvious implies observation of the indications of personhood.

However, if the the body (more precisely, the brain), could be somehow resurrected in it's original form, I think the personality would be resurrected with it. In the future we may be able to scan a brain and build a working replica, thus attaining immortality.
can i get a link? on most places ive read theyve said that there is no satisfactory explenation for NDEs
 
DMT: The Spirit Molecule: A Doctor's Revolutionary Research into the Biology of Near-Death and Mystical Experiences -- by Rick Strassman MD
 
Confutatis said:
Is it obvious that the individual ceases to exist when the body dies?

Three rules:
1. Be sure you clearly define what "individual" and "exist" means.
2. Only obvious reasons, please. Personal beliefs are irrelevant.
3. No stupid answers, such as "because Christians are idiots".

Any takers?

1. You should provide those definitions yourself since you are the one asking the question.
2. Are you asking if death is obvious?
3. Why is that answer stupid?
 
It seems to me most people have similar thoughts on identity and death, regardless of what they believe. Would it be fair to say even atheists believe the Christian notion of ressurrection is possible? (although, of course, not in Christian terms)
 
Obvious to me.

1. Individual being body and brain. Exist meaning to effectively influence/manipulate the world and it's components.

2. When someone has an NDE, it is an observation made with the brain since it can be recalled through the brain. I see it as magic to believe that without a mechanism to observe a circumstance, a brain, that we can still observe a circumstance. A computer, in a basic function, can do calculations like the brain does. Does that mean it has a soul? No, it's just a machine used to transfer energy to do calculations, and output using a device such as a monitor. While our output is through physical action usually. What's left behind of a computers work is just like that of a used number in an equation. It's done it's work, it's no more. It only lives on in the presence of my work, if I used the computer to do my work. Just as a number in an equation isn't used anymore but it still lives on in how it played it's part to arrive to the final equation. But other than that, the computer ceases to exist when destroyed, no more, gone for good other than if the maker wanted to make an exact replica, which at this time, is humanly impossible for an exact replica down to the quantum level. Only God can do that since He is the ultimate mathematician. He has time/space/energy recorded and if He so wanted, could make an exact mathematical replica of anyone. And then, if we could make an exact quantum replica, we would have to go back in time because the particles used to make the old pc have long scattered and only at that original time/space could the same particles be used in the same exact space. And to go back in time, we would have to know how the equation of time/space/energy got to where it is now, ie, recording all time/energy/space in the past so we can reverse engineer it. Like equating to a math problem again. Right now, in the present, we can only see the sum of the past influences, just as we would just see the sum of a number. We would see all the exact numbers involved to come to the final equation, and that is what would have to be recorded, down to the smallest particle level.

Ok, back on topic, but to me, the soul, if you want to call it that, only exists as a dent in the framework of time and space, as I mentioned in another thread. A number in the final equation. It is not immortal, as in ever living, only immortal in the dent it has made in the framework of time/space in which it existed. NDE's, as spidergoat pointed out, can be explained through science. Which doesn't mean it's to fool us. After all, God did give us the ability to reason which has lead many people to God such as myself. Most people who read holy texts think that it makes sense because most sound reasonable in how we should treat our fellow humans. We are given certain functions, like messages, that lead us back to God. God didn't or wouldn't put us here all alone with no way of finding Him again just as a mother wouldn't let her son go off by himself for the first time in the world without making sure he knows his way back. The more I know, the more I find out I don't know, it never ends. We won't know all and got to face it, only God and only through God, can we. I believe it is possible to overcome the obstacles of time/space by using our mind to convey to God. We are not much alone, just as a single computer in a network. But when we call upon God who is in charge of all, like a DOS attack on a computer network, we can call that one, which can rally the power of all, and make it happen. We are all connected in that sense. The power of the mind is through the power of knowing where to get more power. That is what has made humans so successful. And I believe only through God can miracles be done.

Ok, sorry, I will stop there, my mind has a bad habit of getting off topic sometimes and drabbling on.
 
confusedtis: simply answer no.
you die, goodbye.
everyone dies alone.
you are no longer existing as a distinctive or individualistic entity.
cease to be, end, finito, conclusion, termination, expiration, closure.
 
To elaborate on and somewhat contradict the above comments, I think that our brain is exactly a calculator. The only difference between a brain and a computer is the level of complexity, but this difference is rapidly closing.

It is not necessary to replicate a brain to the quantum level for it to function the same, since it is constantly dealing with much greater levels of chaos. There are brain cells dying, chemicals passing through the blood-brain barrier, errors in DNA replication, ect.
 
spidergoat said:
The only difference between a brain and a computer is the level of complexity, but this difference is rapidly closing.

Yes. Humans are getting dumber by the hour!

(sorry, couldn't resist)
 
Confutatis said:
Is it obvious that the individual ceases to exist when the body dies?

Three rules:
1. Be sure you clearly define what "individual" and "exist" means.
2. Only obvious reasons, please. Personal beliefs are irrelevant.
3. No stupid answers, such as "because Christians are idiots".

Any takers?

1. I'll define it as a point of consciousness and perception. Normally I would include the 'body', but that possibility was eliminated by the wording of the question.
2. I'll provide an 'obvious' reason.
3. I wont insult any idiots.

Q: Is it obvious that the individual ceases to exist when the body dies?
A: Yes. Altering & terminating the operation of the brain can eliminate one or more components of the "individual". This is commonly observed in people who suffer brain damage or brain development defects while alive. The process of death and decomposition terminate the operation of the brain.

edit: oops forgot to define 'exist'. I'll define it as 'the presence of information'.
 
Last edited:
individual = singular consciousness
exist = measurable activity

Countless people have died. Never has evidence of their existence been produced that they someone live on. Yes it is obvious. You can still wishfully think otherwise if that makes you happy I guess. There are other more honest ways to be happy though.
 
fadingCaptain said:
Countless people have died. Never has evidence of their existence been produced that they someone live on.

What about the countless reports of people making contact with the deceased? Wouldn't that qualify as evidence?
 
Confutatis said:
What about the countless reports of people making contact with the deceased? Wouldn't that qualify as evidence?

Yes, just the other day I was talking with Elvis and Hendrix, who were playing tiddly-winks with Newton and Einstein, who all agreed that talking with the dead is pure nonsense.
 
Back
Top