ALMA sees old galaxies before they merged. two ways to look back into the past?

Write4U said:
I would have a single horizon at the equator plus an event horizon at the BH entrance. At the WH exit there would not yet be life to make any observations.
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such a panorama would show the BH, Big Bang in one corner and the present expanded spacetime in the other, would it not?
 
river said:
Mathematics " guides " no thing nor things . In and of its self Mathematics has No Physical Properties at all . Hence has no possibility to guide any thing .
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Mathematics is not a force, it is a property of the spacetime fabric. Things happen via logical mathematical guiding equations which physical things and actions must obey, naturally, inevitably.

How physical things respond to the mathematics of the universe is implied by their inherent values even before they are explicated from the most subtle to gross expression in realty.
 
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Write4U said:
Mathematics is not a force, it is a property of the spacetime fabric. Things happen in a logical mathematical guiding equations which physical things and actions must obey, naturally, inevitably.

How physical things respond to the mathematics of the universe is implied by their inherent values even before they are explicated from the most subtle to gross expression in realty.
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How does the mathematics exist before the physical ?
 
nebel said:
such a panorama would show the BH, Big Bang in one corner and the present expanded spacetime in the other, would it not?
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Actually, the BH and the WH are at the center singularity of the toroid See the colour illustration on page 1039 where everything falls into the BH phenomenon until it is converted into pure energy, reaches a threshold, and gets spewed out the other side as a WH phenomenon, which is basically a repeat of an ancient original BB but each repeat evolving slightly different from previous versions in an endless recycling of matter and energy.

Such a model might also yield a multiverse with many toroidal universes locked in their own endless cycle of creating matter from energy and back to energy from matter.

I have absolutely no numbers or science on which I base this speculative proposal. Don't ask me to prove it...:rolleye:
 
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river said:
How does the mathematics exist before the physical ?
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We've covered that before, but my take is that mathematics is inherent in 3D spacetime geometry.

Example: Circles are all similar, and "the circumference divided by the diameter" produces the same value regardless of their radius. This value is the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter and is called π (Pi).

IOW, all circles have a mathematical circumferential value in common, Pi. This suggests that Pi has an independent existence as a necessary and sufficient part of a circular pattern, regardless of the physical materials involved.
 
Write4U said:
We've covered that before, but my take is that mathematics is inherent in 3D spacetime geometry.

Example: Circles are all similar, and "the circumference divided by the diameter" produces the same value regardless of their radius. This value is the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter and is called π (Pi).

IOW, all circles have a mathematical circumferential value in common, Pi. This suggests that Pi has an independent existence as a necessary and sufficient part of a circular pattern, regardless of the physical materials involved.
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Highlighted

And Pi calculation goes on for infinity . 3.14 is not a perfect mathematical thing .
 
river said:
Highlighted

And Pi calculation goes on for infinity . 3.14 is not a perfect mathematical thing .
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No matter, Pi (an abstract mathematical entity) exists in every circle, regardless of size or physics.

All Platonic solids have similar unalienable abstract mathematical properties regardless of size.
 
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river said:
Go on

First though define chaos theory to you . So we don't misunderstand each other .
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The probabilistic spontaneous formation of regular patterns by quanta with specific values, within the initial chaotic condition,
 
Write4U said:
everything falls into the BH phenomenon until it is converted into pure energy, reaches a threshold, and gets spewed out the other side as a WH phenomenon, which is basically a repeat of an ancient original BB but each repeat evolving slightly different from previous versions in an endless recycling of matter and energy.
Click to expand...

of course that is a reasonable concept, Roger Penrose, advanced something like this decades ago, what I am pointing out is:
if we consider our horizon, from which we can only detect 1/4 of the total universe, with the Background Radiation at the outer time limit, 13 billion years away ---, with the ones
in the recirculating torus, none of the 4 "umbrellas" (The coloured curved surface with the handle reaching to the center or beginning post #1057) required to see all the universe, would give you identical 2D panoramas.
If you are unlucky, you could face imminent spaghettification, if you are not in the one that corresponds to our vision, near the equator.
The sphere expanding into time model has only local, not certain, fatal, universal hazards. It is the simplest too. a

Sphere Expanding Into Time: S.e.i.t. almost like Zeit as in Zeitgeist. thank you for the prompting.
sorry for the line, unintended glitch.
 
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Write4U said:
I would have a single horizon at the equator plus an event horizon at the BH entrance. At the WH exit there would not yet be life to make any observations.
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to rephrase my reply:
only the radius of 13 billion years centered on the donut's equator would give the even panorama we have in all 4 viewing areas in our S.E.I.T. model***.
(There is only place for one right on the equator btw) The other 3 that are required, to cover the universe as a toroid, would give really terrifying views, if you value stability.
*** Sphere expanding into time
 
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Quoted from New Scientist magazine, bold added:
"Earlier this year, astronomers led by Tessa Vernstrom at the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation in Perth, Australia, confirmed the detection of magnetic field lines stretching some 50 million light years between galaxy clusters."

Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/articl...-would-revolutionise-cosmology/#ixzz79I2fWOrc

This would be a feature that reaches almost double beyond our horizon , if we consider that we can see only ~ 13 billion years in all directions along the expanding sphere SEIT. which itself has only a circumference of ~90 billion years in timespace.
,
 
On the theme of the OP seeing the same event twice, again from the others side of the universe, here a partial event: Image coming a convoluted way along membrane #3 through deep time warps.

University of Copenhagen - Faculty of Science. "Astronomers spot the same supernova three times -- and predict a fourth sighting in 16 years." ScienceDaily. ScienceDaily, 13 September 2021. <www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/09/210913135608.htm>.
nebel said:
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I copied this image from the thread on gravity in and out form Janus58 post # 96 page 5. Here is depicted Sirius' mass gravity well in red as a star or neutron star in black. This would correspond to what the ES membrane could look like if the expansion of the universe were subject to relativistic effects, that is, movement through time reduced by increased gravity.
A spherical expanding membrane with laggards like this and black holes sticking into the empty past. dimples in the curvature.
credit to Janus58
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Mirror images are part of the Platonic dodecahedron universe, no?

Is the universe a dodecahedron?
08 Oct 2003 Isabelle Dumé
The standard model of cosmology predicts that the universe is infinite and flat. However, cosmologists in France and the US are now suggesting that space could be finite and shaped like a dodecahedron instead. They claim that a universe with the same shape as the twelve-sided polygon can explain measurements of the cosmic microwave background – the radiation left over from the big bang – that spaces with more mundane shapes cannot (J-P Luminet et al. 2003 Nature 425 593).
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polygon.jpg

Figure 2
Jean-Pierre Luminet of the Observatoire de Paris and colleagues believe that the finite size of the universe itself is responsible for this behaviour. Moreover, they show that the predictions of a model in which space consists of 12 curved pentagons joined together in a sphere agrees with the WMAP observations (figure 2). Their ‘small’, closed universe should be about 30 billion light years across.
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“Our work really addresses this ancient question of whether the universe is finite or infinite,” team member Jeff Weeks, a freelance mathematician based in New York, told PhysicsWeb. “The exciting point is that this is no longer pure speculation – we now have real data.”
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https://physicsworld.com/a/is-the-universe-a-dodecahedron/#
 
Write4U said:
dodecahedron
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The present model of the universe moving into time as an expanding sphere, or "Sphere Model Expanding Into Time,"
SMEIT, with membrane #3 being subject to only to relativistic deformations, has no mechanism that would account for the existence of the edges and planar areas of a 12 sided geometric abstract. Light, any object moving in area #3 is not observed to suddenly change directions as would be required.

There would be 3 of these of these kinky pentagon areas within the horizon we see of the universe, see post # 1057 above.
 
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