Anti-religion government

[Rhaedas]

I heard a spot on the BBC this morning discussing the growth of the Catholic Church in Cuba, more specifically the observance of Good Friday for the first time as a national holiday. Apparently the Pope in his visit had asked if this could be done since religion is more accepted now since the days of oppression under Fidel.

And to my point...in bringing up this stifling of religious freedom, the reporter said that this occurred under the old atheistic government. This hit a nerve with me, because, just like the old line about Stalin, communism, and how atheists were behind all that too, this is completely wrong given the definition of atheism itself. An atheistic government is a secular one, it allows religion, in fact it avoids discussion of what religion is all about. It's only when a government dictates what religion can and can't be practiced that it becomes a non-atheist government (how about that for a double negative).

So, while I was hearing this report, and happy for the freedom of religion that is now becoming the norm for Cubans, when the reporter said once more the term "the previous atheist government" I just had to rant somewhere. Wouldn't it be more correct to call the Fidel regime where religion was forbidden as an anti-theist government? It's a less common term than atheist, but a lot more accurate. I was just surprised that this came from the BBC, since the UK is a lot more open about non-believers than over here in the US.

 

[Jeeves]

Anti-theist is far more correct when referring to a government policy - rather than an individual's belief or non-belief. But that kind of nuance depends on informed and conscious use of words, which is not something we normally associate with American media these days, and i've been noticing that both Canadian and British broadcasters are falling in behind CNN. Got to reinforce that atheist=communist=bad association wherever possible!

 

[Adstar]

The communist doctrine was anti Theist and it was atheist. So the BBC got it right. Communism is not an agnostic system of don't support God don't oppress God. Atheist communism was anti religion from it's very birth.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Balerion]

Contrary to Adstar's nonsense, Rhaedas and Jeeves got it right. And Cuba's anti-theism was political anyway. It had nothing to do with disbelief in god, and therefore was not atheistic in nature.

Also, Adstar apparently needs to do his homework, because Communism is not inherently anti-theistic.

 

[Yazata]

"Atheism is ostensibly the doctrine that there is no God. Some atheists support this claim by arguments. But these arguments are usually directed against the Christian concept of God, and are largely irrelevant to other possible gods. Thus much Western atheism may be better understood as the doctrine that the Christian God does not exist."

Oxford Guide to Philosophy p.64

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"Atheism. Disbelief in the existence of any GODS or of God. This may take the form of (a) dogmatic rejection of specific beliefs, e.g. of THEISM, (b) skepticism about all religious claims, or (c) agnosticism, the view that humans can never be certain in matters of so-called religious knowledge (e.g. whether God exists or not). An atheist may hold belief in God to be false, or irrational, or meaningless."

The Penguin Dictionary of Religions pp. 53-4

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"Atheism. Denial of the existence of god. Broadly conceived, it indicates the denial of any principle or being as worthy of divinity. Specific meanings vary widely in accordance with the conception of god that is denied."

The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions p.76

___________________________

"According to the most usual definition, an "atheist" is a person who maintains that there is no God, that is, that the sentence "God exists" expresses a false proposition. In contrast, an agnostic maintains that it is not known or cannot be known whether there is a God, that is, whether the sentence "God exists" expresses a true proposition. On our definition, an "atheist" is a person who rejects belief in God, regardless of whether or not his reason for the rejection is the claim that "God exists" expresses a false proposition. People frequently adopt an attitude of rejection toward a position for reasons other than it is a false proposition. It is common among contemporary philosophers, and indeed it was not uncommon in earlier centuries, to reject positions on the ground that they are meaningless. Sometimes too, a theory is rejected on such grounds as that it is sterile or redundant or capricious..."

Encyclopedia of Philosophy Paul Edwards ed., 1st ed. vol.I , p. 175

 

[Yazata]

And to my point...in bringing up this stifling of religious freedom, the reporter said that this occurred under the old atheistic government.

I think that's accurate. The only thing that I might disagree with is the suggestion that the old government and the new government aren't the same government. It would be more accurate to talk about old and new policies.

This hit a nerve with me, because, just like the old line about Stalin, communism, and how atheists were behind all that too, this is completely wrong given the definition of atheism itself.

"The definition of atheism itself"?

An atheistic government is a secular one, it allows religion, in fact it avoids discussion of what religion is all about.

Except that in real-life, secular government simply upholds the principle of separation between religion and government, recognizing that religious choice is a matter of personal conscience. It isn't necessarily (and typically isn't) government by people without religion, it's government by people (religious or not) who accept the individualistic ('liberal' in the European sense) ideal of religious liberty.

That can be compared with governments ruled by people who not only reject religion in their own personal lives (though they often have abounding faith in their Marxist quasi-religion) but who have also declared religion to be a false atavism and put in place policies designed to suppress it and ideally, to stamp it out entirely in the population as a whole.

Wouldn't it be more correct to call the Fidel regime where religion was forbidden as an anti-theist government?

Some atheists are anti-theist. Not all of them certainly, but it's just a fact that some are and sometimes they have committed terrible crimes. Just as religious people vary tremendously among themselves, from strong believers in religious freedom and individual choice on one hand, to hard-line fundies, state churches and blood-stained inquisitors on the other.

We're all human beings here on this planet. We're all bozos on the same bus.

 

[wynn]

We're all bozos on the same bus.

I don't think so.

 

[Repo Man]

As has been stated many times, communist dogma did not tolerate religious dogma in much the same way Catholics did not tolerate protestant faiths, which at one time were persecuted by the Catholics with much more intensity than the communists were ever able to muster.

Bolshevism is not merely a political doctrine; it is also a religion, with elaborate dogmas and inspired scriptures. When Lenin wishes to prove some proposition, he does so, if possible, by quoting texts from Marx and Engels. A full-fledged Communist is not merely a man who believes that land and capital should be held in common, and their produce distributed as nearly equally as possible. He is a man who entertains a number of elaborate and dogmatic beliefs--such as philosophic materialism, for example--which may be true, but are not, to a scientific temper, capable of being known to be true with any certainty. This habit, of militant certainty about objectively doubtful matters, is one from which, since the
Renaissance, the world has been gradually emerging, into that temper of constructive and fruitful scepticism which constitutes the scientific outlook. "

- Bertrand Russell from The Practice and Theory of Bolshevism

 

[aaqucnaona]

The one thing we can say for sure was that the old government was unjust and irrational. While it was atheistic, it was also anti-theistic, and that was the attribute relevant to that sentence - but then, news media is a bussiness - and like all bussinesses, it makes money, not products or services.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

Some countries like to make the state into a false God, so that people are willing to die for it.

 

[Jeeves]

Some countries like to make the state into a false God, so that people are willing to die for it.

Some countries? Nationalism - tribalism - is at least as old as religion; people have been dying for "king and country" whether they were willing to or not, just as they've been persuaded and forced to die for their various gods. Usually under the same flag. How, then, is one god falser or realer than another?

 

[Captain Kremmen]

Well, the God I was taught to worship is obviously the best.


More seriously, I hold that people benefit from cultural traditions and other human interactions with nature, ideas, and themselves.
In my case consisting of Music, Art, Science, Politics, Sport, and Religion.
(add your own uniquely human interest)

To be against religion is to be anti-human.
Do they want us to be scientific Robots?