Apocalypse Soon?

[Futilitist]

As the Declaration of Independence says, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. I think this applies not just to government rule, as was the topic, but in things generally. We are a procrastinating species, and if we can rationalize not changing our own little world around us, we tend not to act.

So I guess the point to your question is, how well we fare collectively will depend on how obvious the problems rear their head and how much time it gives us to react. If it's quick and unrecoverable, then you may be right. But with some time and a threat in our own back yard, people could change. We can complain about the governments and the corporations all we want, but they won't change if individuals don't. Why should they? They don't think long term.

The problems are already obvious, but people still aren't paying attention. There is provably not enough time to react to avoid disaster. The people, the governments, and the corporations aren't going to change. In other words, we are doomed, but we just aren't ready to admit it yet.

I guess my point is that the coming Apocalypse is the inevitable conclusion to the story that started 10,000 years ago when humans first began to become "civilized". We have been given plenty of warnings, we have largely ignored them, and now it is far too late to avoid a complete social collapse. The only interesting part now is watching the denial continue to the bitter end.

---Futilitist

 

[billvon]

The problems are already obvious, but people still aren't paying attention. There is provably not enough time to react to avoid disaster.

Been said dozens of times before.

The people, the governments, and the corporations aren't going to change. In other words, we are doomed, but we just aren't ready to admit it yet.

I guess my point is that the coming Apocalypse is the inevitable conclusion to the story that started 10,000 years ago when humans first began to become "civilized". We have been given plenty of warnings, we have largely ignored them, and now it is far too late to avoid a complete social collapse. The only interesting part now is watching the denial continue to the bitter end.

Given that the denialists have been mostly right for the past 9900 years (with the possible exception of the Dark Ages) the smart money is on them.

 

[Futilitist]

Smart money?

Been said dozens of times before.

Maybe I will be the last.

Given that the denialists have been mostly right for the past 9900 years (with the possible exception of the Dark Ages) the smart money is on them.

All bets are off in an Apocalypse.

---Futilitist

 

[Carcano]

This thread is to talk rationally about the upcoming collapse of industrial civilization.

There are three issues here...relative to this phrase 'industrial civilization'.

1. Is industry possible without liquid fuel?

2. Is civilization possible without industry?

3. To what extent is food and textile production possible without liquid fuel?

This also raises questions about population density relative to all habitable land available.

 

[billvon]

Maybe I will be the last.

Could be! But I have a feeling there will be a new Mayan Apocalypse or Fiscal Cliff or Carmageddon or some such in a month or so.

All bets are off in an Apocalypse.

Not if it's a zombie apocalypse. Then the fastest guy wins.

 

[Futilitist]

Zombie Apocalypse/Eventually

Could be! But I have a feeling there will be a new Mayan Apocalypse or Fiscal Cliff or Carmageddon or some such in a month or so.

Perhaps. But eventually it will be a real Apocalypse. And soon. And there is real science to back that up.

Not if it's a zombie apocalypse. Then the fastest guy wins.

Only for a while. Eventually he loses.

---Futilitist

 

[billvon]

Perhaps. But eventually it will be a real Apocalypse. And soon. And there is real science to back that up.

There has been "real science" to back up many of the end-of-the-world predictions. Comet Elenin was supposed to cause earthquakes when it passed between the Sun and the Earth in September. A few reputable scientists predicted that the LHC might create a mini black hole and suck the whole earth into the resulting singularity. (Needless to say they are slightly less reputable nowadays.)

 

[billvon]

Could be! But I have a feeling there will be a new Mayan Apocalypse or Fiscal Cliff or Carmageddon or some such in a month or so.

And here it is! Just found it:

The world will end on (drumroll) . . . May 19, 2013.

================
In 2008, Ronald Weinland wrote that "the final countdown has begun, as the 1,335 days before the actual day Jesus Christ returns began on Tuesday, September 30, 2008." Weinland later changed his prophesied date for the return of Christ to Pentecost of 2012, which fell on May 27. Prior to this date, Weinland declared that 7,000 ministers and leading members of the Sabbatarian Churches of God would die in the Great Tribulation.

May 27, 2012, passed without Weinland's predicted apocalypse. In a blog posting dated May 26, 2012, Weinland acknowledged that "nothing has begun in the world that would signal the need or purpose for...Christ’s return". He urged his followers to "move forward", and suggested that God had been, and continued to be, merciful to his people. He later stated that the end of the world had indeed begun on May 27, 2012, but would take "one year to become fulfilled". Weinland asserts that Christ will now return on Pentecost of 2013, which will fall on May 19, 2013.
================

 

[Futilitist]

There are three issues here...relative to this phrase 'industrial civilization'.

1. Is industry possible without liquid fuel?

2. Is civilization possible without industry?

3. To what extent is food and textile production possible without liquid fuel?

This also raises questions about population density relative to all habitable land available.

I think these are all good questions. But they assume an adequate time to make some sort of transition. If you read the Korowicz paper you will see how fast things will likely unravel. The paper is a systems dynamics and risk analysis view. It seems very logical.

We are all very connected to, and dependent upon, this current industrial civilization. We are already out of time.

---Futilitist

 

[Rhaedas]

What's worse, assuming we can't do anything because of time/politics/scale/etc, or at least trying to narrow down what we can change, and following through with that change? It's okay to be pessimistic, but to do so without a goal to make anything different is just self fulfilling prophesy, something I think some enjoy. They want to be right, rather than try and avoid the dilemma.

 

[Futilitist]

There has been "real science" to back up many of the end-of-the-world predictions. Comet Elenin was supposed to cause earthquakes when it passed between the Sun and the Earth in September. A few reputable scientists predicted that the LHC might create a mini black hole and suck the whole earth into the resulting singularity. (Needless to say they are slightly less reputable nowadays.)

And here it is! Just found it:

The world will end on (drumroll) . . . May 19, 2013.

================
In 2008, Ronald Weinland wrote that "the final countdown has begun, as the 1,335 days before the actual day Jesus Christ returns began on Tuesday, September 30, 2008." Weinland later changed his prophesied date for the return of Christ to Pentecost of 2012, which fell on May 27. Prior to this date, Weinland declared that 7,000 ministers and leading members of the Sabbatarian Churches of God would die in the Great Tribulation.

May 27, 2012, passed without Weinland's predicted apocalypse. In a blog posting dated May 26, 2012, Weinland acknowledged that "nothing has begun in the world that would signal the need or purpose for...Christ’s return". He urged his followers to "move forward", and suggested that God had been, and continued to be, merciful to his people. He later stated that the end of the world had indeed begun on May 27, 2012, but would take "one year to become fulfilled". Weinland asserts that Christ will now return on Pentecost of 2013, which will fall on May 19, 2013.
================

And what's your point? These are nut job predictions. They are totally irrelevant.:bugeye:

I am talking about science. Why not read the links I posted in the original post. Then come back and tell me why I'm wrong.

---Futilitist

 

[Futilitist]

What's worse?

What's worse, assuming we can't do anything because of time/politics/scale/etc, or at least trying to narrow down what we can change, and following through with that change? It's okay to be pessimistic, but to do so without a goal to make anything different is just self fulfilling prophesy, something I think some enjoy. They want to be right, rather than try and avoid the dilemma.

I'm not pessimistic. I am realistic. And I never suggested we couldn't do anything. I think facing the hard, cold truth, as near as it can be determined, is the right way to go. Otherwise, things might be made even worse by bad decision making. Precious resources could be squandered. In a resource crisis, it makes more sense to plan realistically, than to plan hopefully.

And you can't avoid a dilemma. You just have to do the best you can to get through it.

---Futilitist

 

[origin]

People always think the time they are living in is somehow special. We are way better off now than some times in the past and we are way worse off than some times in the past. The truth is this time is no more special than any other time it just seems so to us because we are experiencing these times.

Long after you are dead and forgotten there will be some kid talking about the imminent apocalypse, just like always....

 

[Carcano]

I never suggested we couldn't do anything.

Something to consider is WHO this word WE refers to?

Does it mean just yourself, or all people who share your views, or the government, all governments, the majority of voting citizens?

Really, there is no meaningful WE at hand. Markets are global but there is no global organizing force with a unified objective.

 

[Carcano]

I think these are all good questions. But they assume an adequate time to make some sort of transition.

Again, WHO will make this transition if it even happens.

Will economic market forces force everyone to change their own lifestyle?

Will prophetic governments force everyone to change?

 

[Carcano]

We are all very connected to, and dependent upon, this current industrial civilization. We are already out of time.

Yes, time is running out on WASTE, but not on WEALTH.

Much of what our society considers to be its wealth is just simply waste.

Did you read my recent thread btw...A Fuel Depleted Economy?

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?130792-A-Fuel-Depleted-Economy

 

[Futilitist]

Something to consider is WHO this word WE refers to?

Does it mean just yourself, or all people who share your views, or the government, all governments, the majority of voting citizens?

Really, there is no meaningful WE at hand. Markets are global but there is no global organizing force with a unified objective.

Again, WHO will make this transition if it even happens.

Will economic market forces force everyone to change their own lifestyle?

Will prophetic governments force everyone to change?

That's the trouble. No one can agree on what to do.

But we can still talk about it.

---Futilitist

 

[wynn]

If the worst case scenario happens to be the actual reality, we will have no choice but to face it. Facing it realistically may be a better option than deceiving ourselves. It may seem counterintuitive at first, but embracing the worse case scenario as inevitable may actually be helpful in this case.

There is no solution, we are all part of the "problem". That is why what we face is a dilemma, not a problem.

If it's considered a dilemma, and not a mere dichotomy, then this is already indicative that people have no real incentive to do anything about the situation.

 

[wynn]

We can complain about the governments and the corporations all we want, but they won't change if individuals don't. Why should they? They don't think long term.

How come people don't think long-term?

 

[Read-Only]

How come people don't think long-term?

People used to. I believe it got lost when the concept of "instant gratification" took hold. Today, things like paying a considerable amount for over-night shipping is reflected in most aspects of many people's lives. They're simply not willing to wait for the 'payoff.' Few people nowadays even make an attempt to save for a future purchase. Easy credit has destroyed many individuals. (I'll just put it on plastic and pay for it later...)