Are Police Above The Law?

goofyfish

Analog By Birth, Digital By Design
Valued Senior Member
Should the police be allowed to ignore the law with impunity, suffering minor administrative penalties for committing what would be felonies for other people? I'm not talking here about special laws that directly govern police powers (such as exemptions to 'duty to retreat' laws or expanded arrest powers), but rather the idea that the police can engage in grossly negligent or outright criminal conduct and suffer no significant consequence for it. Despite what some people think, there are those who do believe that the police should be immune to the laws that mere “civilians” must follow, as is apparently demonstrated by the conduct of the police themselves, the difficulty of obtaining a conviction when an officer commits a crime, and the opinions I've seen expressed by people in the past.


Needs A Gun Safety Course
Were I to take a pistol into school, show it off to a bunch of kids, then pass it around loaded, and end with one of the kids shot, I would be arrested and slapped with several felonies. But somehow, if a cop does the same thing, she should only be subject to a few weeks without pay and a minor bad mark on her record.

Agent Shoots Eagle Scout In The Face
Clearly, the FBI needs to detain bank robbers. But, when attempting to arrest someone who kind-of matches the description of a bank robber, they certainly don't need to shoot him in the face for reaching for the door handle when he's ordered to get out of the car.

NYPD Rectal Interrogation Techniques
The police in some areas seem to be secure enough in their immunity to the laws that govern the rest of us that they can, in the middle of a police station, feel safe shoving a toilet plunger into the anus of a guy who looked like[/I] someone who insulted them. I hardly think that all of the other officers in such a police station are upholding their duties as law enforcement officers, and I am disgusted that they refused to come forward and testify about what went on.


A police officer has the power to change a person's life, or even take it. He can manufacture evidence, lie in court, or just beat the hell out of you. The fact that these rogue cops sometimes get caught is a mixed blessing to those that are trying to do a good job. On one hand, it tarnishes their image, but on the other hand, it demonstrates that the police are not a law onto themselves. The “thin blue line” has an increasingly difficult job to do, and a police officer should not be held to the same standards of behavior as the man in the street.

His standards must be higher.

Peace.
 
Yep. Greater authority should bring with it greater responsibility. There is a reason our officers (talking about our military officers) are supposed to maintain a spotless presentation and calm rational demeanour at all times. They must be seen as paragons of order and virtue. It's not going to happen, but it is their duty to try.

One reason I don't plan on going back to the USA is this nasty habit the police there have of pointing there guns at people all the friggin time. Like in traffic stops, or just questioning people in the street. Now, I know they have to do it simply because there are so many damn guns floating around that country. But look at it from my point of view. The military taught me that if someone points a gun at you, he intends to kill you, and you must do whatever is required to neutralise that threat. And whether that cop intends to kill me or they might just accidentally squeeze the trigger, the fact remains that a gun pointed at me is a threat to my life. And above any nation's law I maintain the right to protect my own life. So that would put me in a difficult position. Most likely I would never be carrying a gun, so the issue of my own response is mostly irrelevent. But the philosophy of the matter remains. If they point guns at people, they should keep in mind that those people do have the right to protect their own lives.
 
ADAM

An excellent point.

Here in the U.K. police with guns are only now becomng more publicly constant. It's an object of power in the hand of a person of some power. It must therefore require a person of great dicipline to wield it responsibly.

Just occasionally you're gonna find an asshole in the group who gets all hot with it. The law of averages surely says so.
What intrigues me now is the chicken and egg syndrome that's happening here with the steady escalation of gun crime.
More police guns more gun crime. Or is it the other way round.

It's all very worrying.

Remember to duck you guys:)
 
Oooh, Im wondering if I should even post my opinion... I might get lynched.
Oh wait, you guys dont believe in lynching:D
 
Originally posted by *stRgrL*
Im wondering if I should even post my opinion... I might get lynched.
Oh wait, you guys dont believe in lynching
Are you sure we don't believe? You have been working awfully hard to change our way of thinking -- shouldn't you be a wee bit scared that you may have succeeded?? :D

Peace.
 
Okay, in my opinion, there are good cops and bad cops. I highly doubt any cop wants to be a cop so he can be corrupt. That is the single most occupation where you are CONSTANTLY being exposed to crime. And they are only human, and the tempation is ALWAYS there. Now, I dont think its alright they get away with things that the normal joeblow would not get away with. I think, if you commit a crime, cop or not, you should be punished according to the law.
Now about the gun thing. Everybody hates cops. Well most people do, and they are in constant fear for their lives. That probably explains them pulling guns all the time. I admit, I havent read the text above thorougly and I will try to do so later on today. But... I have spoken with cops on their side of views, and I grew up with criminals, so I also know their side of views. If you dont want to deal with cops, dont break the law.


Ooooh, Im gonna get it now:D


Groove on
 
*stRgrL*

Actually I think the points you make are quite valid. We all have an idea of how it should be. Sometimes the reallity of the situation doesn't conform to that belief.

Crime is rife in the area where I live. Thing is if any member of the public witneses a crime they very rarely come forward to say so. Not out of fear of reprisal, although I think that is an element of it. More out of the common belief that you just don't tell !

The point I'm trying to make is that I firmly believe that the population locally, expects cops to be corrupt and in a wierd way wouldn't trust them if they weren't.

Every body I know does something they shouldn't. Why should the police be different?

Go figure:eek:
 
Guess you find cops who just live for being violent and putting themselves above the law everywhere.

In the Netherlands I have met them. :) A few minutes after such a cop a 'nicer' one comes in and you just tell her/him about the former one. Then the situation gets solved, for they don't like this kind of behaviour at all in the Netherlands. I used to live in an appartment where a lot of crime was going on. Cops all over the place sometimes. Not with their guns out though. Only if necessarry and that was rare.

The U$ has a patent for this I must say. In the Netherlands the people act when they see something happening. If the situation looks too ugly, they inform the cops yes. Nothing wrong with that. There is a high price to pay for cops who put themselves above the law. And believe me, a cop who ends up in prison doesn't have a good time...

It is one of the most ridiculous items there is, cops and other government related people who think they have an awesome position to abuse it...
 
Oh, I my goodness, are people really agreeing with me??:D
I knew it would happen someday:D


Groove on
 
Hi, all ...

I've often wondered why so few Police Officers are 'bad apples'.

Considering how poorly compensated and trained many of them are,
yet how high a standard we hold them to, it amazes me that except
for 9/11 when they, and the Firemen, where considered to be heros,
the general attitude of the public is quite negative and, in many cases,
disrespectful.

I think that were you to check the statistics, your chances of being
seriously injured, or killed, by an incompetent doctor are far higher than
your chances of being killed or maimed by a Police Officer. And, the
chance of your being 'ripped off' by an incompetent lawyer is far, far
higher.

Take care :(
 
I think that were you to check the statistics, your chances of being
seriously injured, or killed, by an incompetent doctor are far higher than
your chances of being killed or maimed by a Police Officer. And, the
chance of your being 'ripped off' by an incompetent lawyer is far, far
higher.

posted by Chagur

This is probably very sound fact. T
he beginning of your last post says it all tho'.
I think people expect doctors and lawyers to be somwhat fallable.
Doctors work mainly on the principal of the educated guess.

Lawyers work on the principal that any case they work on could change the current law by setting a new precedent.

Many people, I suppose would presume that police work on a strict set of rules (Laws) and therfore have less need to err. Does that make sense?

Oh and *stRgrL*... two points..

1) I have witnessed you making a lot of sense over the past few months. Stop being such a shit to yourself there are others here to do this!

2) Oh Fuffing wow you finally got an avatar and it kicks ass Power girl... You go!

Love N stuff to y'all:D
 
I have witnessed you making a lot of sense over the past few months.

So what your really trying to say is that I was a complete moron in the beginning:D

Oh, and I couldnt have gotten the kick-ass avatar with out your help, ma darlin'. So thanks!

Groove on
 
No you dumb, dipshit, asshole, moron ....

Sorry:( carried away there.

Thing is I've only been a member for the past few months.

See?:D

Love N ugs N plentiful stiffness cummin at ya!
 
"I am the law, you don't f--k around no more ..."

Respect the badge - he earned it with his blood
Fear the gun - your sentence may be death because...

I AM THE LAW!
And you won't fuck around no more - I AM THE LAW
I judge the rich, I judge the poor - I AM THE LAW
Commit a crime I'll lock the door - I AM THE LAW
Because in Mega-City... I AM THE LAW


(Anthrax, I Am the Law)
I live in Seattle, Washington, where our police are so far above the law it's not even funny. For instance, the Roberts shooting. It's a sticky local case, because the dead black man was, in fact in the wrong. But as the article notes:
King County Prosecutor Norm Maleng yesterday announced that he won't pursue further legal action against the Seattle police officers involved in the fatal shooting of Aaron Roberts, agreeing with an internal police review, also released yesterday, that found the shooting entirely justified.

Neither decision came as any surprise to the officers or the family of Aaron Roberts, especially since an inquest jury this month unanimously agreed with the police version of the shooting.

"This kind of completes the circle of public inquiry and answers any questions the public might still have about whether this shooting was justified or not," said Lisa Marchese, a lawyer for Officers Greg Neubert and Craig Price. "Now everyone can really heal from this and put it past them and move on."

Roberts died May 31 after Price shot him once as Roberts drove away from a traffic stop in the Central Area. The officers said Price fired to protect Neubert, who was being dragged down the street by Roberts' car.
I just want to point out a couple of things:

• As the attorney for the officers notes, this ends the public inquiry; to be specific, we'll note that the public crimefighting body of the King County Prosecutor's Office and the public crimefighting body of the Seattle Police Department have both justified the shooting. This is no surprise.

• And, as the article notes, Officer Price fired because he felt his partner was being dragged down the street by the fleeing car.

• My question: Why did the other officer not simply let go of the car?

Now, just hold onto that one for just a second .... Okay, now check this story about a stolen police car.

I mean, it reads like a Mack Sennett script:
The officers chased the stolen police car north to the Eastlake area. But they lost sight of the fleeing cruiser, which had its lights and siren engaged, before they reached a hillcrest at East Roanoke Street and Harvard Avenue East on Capitol Hill.

When they topped the hill, the officers saw another patrol car, which turned out to be a lone officer from the East Precinct. But they thought it was the suspect. They rammed him with their car.

The East Precinct officer, in turn, thought he was being rammed by the police imposter. He fired at the other patrol car. The officers in that car fired back. Luckily, police said, every shot missed.

Kerlikowske defended the officers saying they had a right to defend themselves. The department will hold a firearms review. Meantime, the officers have been taken off patrol and given administrative duties.

Even as the police were shooting at each other, the man in the stolen police car was driving north on Interstate 5, back to the North Precinct to return the car. Davis was arrested while walking away from it, police said.
As Goofyfish's tales point out: shooting lessons. Three officers with no clue what's happening, not knowing who the hell they're shooting at, missing 20+ rounds. To protect and serve? Well, it would appear that the last resort of deadly force comes well ahead of common sense. Seriously: two cop cars stopped and staring each other down in the street might look ridiculous, but the presumption was that the thief was armed and dangerous, despite no reports of violence or bad driving. So instead of figuring out who is in the other car, it seems the SOP is to simply ram the vehicle.

In other words, shouldn't the cops at least confirm the hostility of the suspected target?

Or, perhaps, the danger of the target? It seems that any lawbreaking warrants death. Police in Seattle took heat for the shooting; the article notes that the suspect "lunged". Unfortunately, a cursory attempt has failed to produce the video mentioned in the article. Is my word good enough to assure you that 25 feet between the gun and the suspect when he suddenly turns around does not constitute so immediate a danger that you have to kill someone. Death is the great equalizer in this town: break the law, and we'll shoot you. Toward the notion of the police being above the law: Marchers seek accountability in police shooting:
March organizers said police could have used nonlethal means to subdue David John Walker, an African-American man with a history of mental illness, who skipped and meandered down the street wielding a knife and gun after robbing a store.

They said police could have shot Walker with rubber bullets, or tear-gassed or tranquilized him rather than killing him.

Some in the group said the protest was about racism; others said it was about police brutality. The Rev. Robert Jeffrey, who spoke to the crowd, called it more a protest of the way police routinely deny society's most vulnerable citizens their legal due process. He said the time has come to demand the formation of an independent citizen-review board.

"This about how police treat the powerless in society who have no redress," he said.

As a side note, while seeking th 48-second video of Walker's shooting by police, I came across this particular article. When this happened, a friend of mine was arrested in the manhunt after being caught with over a pound of dope. At the time, the police department told the public they were seeking an African-American male suspect. My friend is white, and what's stranger is that another friend of mine who looks quite like Cruz in the picture was not harassed by the manhunt at all despite being in the same area at the time. I just thought it worth pointing out that a friend of mine, whose only crime was possessing dope, had his Constitutional rights violated up and down while the police department lied to the public and the courts endorse this kind of behavior by our law enforcement. What was the point of telling the people the shooter was black? Just to stir up the evening? And why such a wide crackdown? Somebody, please, show me a picture of this convicted shooter looking like a white rastafarian. A tragedy occurred, and the police used it to sweep the streets.. Effing ridiculous.

Our police have been ordered by the courts to cease certain investigative procedures, including 2-hour "routine traffic stops"; our officers have been noted in the growing, nationwide scandal implicating racism among police in traffic and other enforcement duties. Our police department has been busted as a theft ring.

One of the ones that hurts badly is the King County Sheriff's department; the sheriff is a friend of a friend. "Dancin' Dave" Reichert has, in fact, made several wise decisions in his term that lead me to have greater faith in local law enforcement. Including the firing of a deputy who was videotaped at WTO attacking a woman who was already down on the street, and also attacking two women with pepper spray at the edge of the combat zone. My friend told me to rejoice when Reichert was elected sheriff, and with his rescaling of the local drug war, I'm impressed. And this: he tried to do the right thing. Another WTO story describes video footage contributing to some of the prosecutions of WTO-related crimes. As a Seattle Times editorial points out:
The reinstatement of King County Sheriff's Deputy John Vanderwalker by a labor arbitrator raises the question: What does a police officer have to do in this town in order to be fired?

During the WTO protests of 1999, when hundreds of police acted professionally under the law, Vanderwalker was videotaped doing two outrageous acts.

In one incident, he asked two women in a parked car to roll down the window, then sprayed them in the face with pepper spray, temporarily blinding them. The women sued, and the county agreed to pay them $100,000.

Yet, the arbitrator decided that spraying them was "neither excessive nor unnecessary," because the women had been asked to leave and hadn't gone.

In the second incident, which the arbitrator allowed was "excessive" but not "unnecessary," Vanderwalker was videotaped coming up to a woman who had a first-aid kit and kicking her from behind. Vanderwalker said he had no memory of doing this. His boss, Sheriff Dave Reichert, dismissed that statement as incredible.

Reichert admitted to Vandewalker's attorney that if there hadn't have been a lie, Vanderwalker wouldn't have been fired. After that, the only real issue was the lie, and because Reichert couldn't prove it - maybe the whole incident had fallen out of the unfortunate deputy's brain - Vanderwalker was reinstated with back pay.
And you know what else, our police are not so much above the law as they are directly protected by it. Consider the story of officers who filed a lawsuit against a bank robber:
The lawsuit, filed by six members of the Puget Sound Violent Crime Task Force in Thurston County Superior Court last week, alleges "extreme and outrageous" behavior by the robbers - a reference to the shootout.

"In the course of attempting to evade capture, defendants attempted to murder, maim and-or seriously wound plaintiffs," says the lawsuit, which seeks unspecified damages.

Seattle attorney Lincoln Sieler, who is representing the plaintiffs, would not name his clients and said they were not ready to comment.

State law says law officers can file claims for injuries resulting from "a willful criminal assault occurring after the officer arrived at the scene of a disturbance," Sieler said.

The lawsuit names Scurlock's parents, William and Mary Jane Scurlock of Olympia, the executors of his estate, and Biggins and Meyers.
The end result of the lawlessness and absolutely shameful sniveling by our police department (we won't go into the Mardi Gras disaster, where the cops willfully allowed a bad situation to get violent, resulting in the murder of a young man). Note two points form the Scurlock article that are macabre enough to make me laugh:

A shot was heard as police closed in, and Scurlock was dead when officers reached him.
Scurlock fled before Meyers and Biggins were wounded and captured. Scurlock hid overnight in a small camper but was spotted the next day by two sons of the camper's owner. Police surrounded the camper and riddled it with bullets. An autopsy, however, revealed Scurlock had taken his own life.

It's worse than a Sennett comedy up here. Cops shooting at each other, shooting at dead people, sweeping the streets, allowing and, in some cases, provoking riots. Stealing from corpses.

What really pisses me off, though, is that even if one is completely warranted in defending themselves against a truly errant police officer, they will most likely go to prison anyway. The benefit of truth is given to whatever recycled hack job the police cough up.

And, yes, the whole of this is melodramatic, but that's pretty much the point. We hear about our brave officers defending our lives every day. Well, in many cases, they simply screw up and have the benefit of racketeers to cover their asses. Police are, indeed, a higher degree of citizenship, invested with greater rights and more protections than other people. Were officers conscripted, I might accept this notion, but the simple fact is that people choose to join police forces. I might remind anyone who is familiar with "The Gas" and other syndicated sports call-in shows (e.g the postgame show for your local baseball team, for instance) that Seattle City, King County, and Port of Seattle law enforcement all recruit during these shows. Seriously, the most widespread recruiting adverts I've ever come across for law enforcement have some strange connection in this town to sports events. Bear that in mind; it does, in fact, speak much of the situation in its own right.

But for the counterpoint, I submit to you our local newsweekly The Stranger and its Police Beat column. One of my favorites:
Fondling Self/Ballard/Wed Dec 12/5:10 pm: Detective Dale Williams writes: "The subject approached me. She said her name was Venus. I noted that she was Asian. She had long dark hair that was loose. She had earrings on. She had a small mark or mole on the right side of her nose. She wore a piece that was shiny and had some red-white-and-blue strips. Between her belly-button and the top of her bottoms, she had a dimple about the size of a silver dollar. She said she did not like it. She pointed out two dimples on her backside; she said she wished the dimples were on her facial cheeks. She also had white stockings on that came up to the tops of her knees. She also had high heels on. She told me she had just bought the outfit and it was bringing her luck because she had just started work and already had a customer. She offered a lap dance. I said, 'Yes.' The lap dance did not comply with the city codes (she revealed her vaginal area, rubbed my genital area, fondled herself). When done, I gave her $40 and left the club.

"I request that charges be brought against Venus."
And on that note, I'll bring this ramble to an end.

thanx all,
Tiassa :cool:
 
:( Oh, I am getting sicker and sicker of the U$. Creepy police, creepy government. Jesus, where will it finally stop...:(
 
tiassa said:
• My question: Why did the other officer not simply let go of the car?

Did you ever think maybe the cop COULDN'T let go of the car? Maybe the suspect was holding him in (it happens) or maybe a piece of his equipment got snagged when the individual suddenly floored it.


tiassa said:
I mean, it reads like a Mack Sennett script:As Goofyfish's tales point out: shooting lessons. Three officers with no clue what's happening, not knowing who the hell they're shooting at, missing 20+ rounds. To protect and serve? Well, it would appear that the last resort of deadly force comes well ahead of common sense. Seriously: two cop cars stopped and staring each other down in the street might look ridiculous, but the presumption was that the thief was armed and dangerous, despite no reports of violence or bad driving. So instead of figuring out who is in the other car, it seems the SOP is to simply ram the vehicle.

In other words, shouldn't the cops at least confirm the hostility of the suspected target?

Ok, this is where I got real fired up! They are chasing a stolen cop car. They lose sight of the cop car and then suddenly one appears from the direction the squad was last seen. Not unreasonable to believe it to be the stolen squad. The officer saw an oppourtunity to end the pursuit and he took it by disabling the other squad car by ramming it. Justified.

The officer that was just rammed, he thinks he has just been rammed by the suspect. Whether you know it or not, a car is considered to be a deadly weapon. And when a car rams you or attempts to, that's considered to be deadly force. At this point the officer is in fear for his own safety and he fires and the other squad, believing it to be the suspect who is trying to harm him. Justified.

Back to the first officer now. He thinks he has just immobilized the suspects vehicle, and then all of a sudden, he's being shot at by the suspect. That officer returns fire, as he is afraid for his safety. Justified.

And lets see how well you can shoot a pistol when your under a high stress situation where someone is shooting at you. Your adrenaline is pumping and you lose control of your fine motor skills. Which includes the trigger finger.

tiassa said:
Is my word good enough to assure you that 25 feet between the gun and the suspect when he suddenly turns around does not constitute so immediate a danger that you have to kill someone.

No it's not. The average person can cover 21 feet in less time then it takes for the officer to draw his sidearm, acquire a target, and pull the trigger. You wonder why he got shot when they are drawn down on someone because they are near a weapon (Justified), and they are giving him orders (Justified and required), and then he suddenly runs toward the weapon? It's a justified shoot!

tiassa said:
a friend of mine was arrested in the manhunt after being caught with over a pound of dope. At the time, the police department told the public they were seeking an African-American male suspect. My friend is white, and what's stranger is that another friend of mine who looks quite like Cruz in the picture was not harassed by the manhunt at all despite being in the same area at the time. I just thought it worth pointing out that a friend of mine, whose only crime was possessing dope, had his Constitutional rights violated up and down while the police department lied to the public and the courts endorse this kind of behavior by our law enforcement. What was the point of telling the people the shooter was black? Just to stir up the evening?

Just because there is a manhunt going on, does not mean that the police ignore all other crimes. Your friend was caught with over a pound of dope, so he was arrested. The man hunt was for a different person, but they found over a pound of narcotics on your friend. They were suppose to let him go?

You say his Constitutional rights were violated up and down. How? How were his rights violated? He was found with a sizeable amount of narcotics, and he was subsequently arrested for said violation. I fail to see where he was violated.

The point of telling the race of the person they are looking for is so that the public can help in identifying this person. Believe it or not, the police rely on the community a lot for information.

tiassa said:
Our police department has been busted as a theft ring.

Your Police Department was not busted as a "theft ring". Certain OFFICERS of the department may have been busted as part of the "theft ring", but it wasn't the whole department.

tiassa said:
(we won't go into the Mardi Gras disaster, where the cops willfully allowed a bad situation to get violent, resulting in the murder of a young man).

If your going to make such bold accusations as this, then you need to back it up.

tiassa said:
Scurlock fled before Meyers and Biggins were wounded and captured. Scurlock hid overnight in a small camper but was spotted the next day by two sons of the camper's owner. Police surrounded the camper and riddled it with bullets. An autopsy, however, revealed Scurlock had taken his own life.

What made the police start shooting? I guarntee you the police did not surround the camper, count to three amongst themselves, and then open fire. What provoked the police to start shooting? Your leaving out essential pieces of your arguments.

tiassa said:
One of my favorites[/url]:

What does this have to do with anything? What are you arguing? It looks like a legitimate report of what happend to me. Towns have laws. Laws need to be enforced or else no one will obey them.

You make some pretty bold accusations in here, and you don't back them up. You think you know everything, but there is a lot that you don't know.

You need to look at all the facts, and see if from different peoples points of view. And when you argue a point or make accusations, you need to back them up and provide all the material so others can cross check it.

Cops invoking riots. Right. Cuz thats what every cop lives for. Your a piece of work.

How many times have you been arrested or harrassed when you were "minding your own business"?


-Kooter
 
Last edited:
To Kooter vs Tiassa

Kooter, while I do agree with you in the case of the mistaken identity that resulted in weapons discharge between officers, You yourself need to realize that there are things that you in fact do not know. You have clearly not witnessed remarkable instances of police brutality. I can assure you that these situations do take place on a regular basis. Not only instances in which police commit crimes, but also where police are excessively aggressive to law-breakers. In my opinion breaking a law does not in any way warrant violence and aggression towards an individual. It is in fact counter-productive as it could instigate a backlash of violence. Also when One is violently aggressive they are thinking predominately with their Emotions, which is the last thing you want a Gun-wielder to do in a tense situation.

The problem here is the psychological roles that are filled when a person steps into their uniform.
Ever hear of the Standford Prison Experiment in which two dozen University students were introduced into a Mock-Prison simulation, in which half were to play the roles of inmates and the other half C.O's. This is a fundamental experiment because it taps into the Nature of Human Kind and our lack of compassion when filling out specific roles.
The scientists actually had to stop the simulation as the results were startling. I don't want to get into great detail ( I know I'm a lazy ass ) but check it out , Google Stanford Prison experiment.

Anywho the solution to this problem is reprimanding the relationship between the police and the public (Good luck) And ultimately until we as a people realize that the majority of all crime stems from Money or lack thereof we're just going to be spinning in circles. Everybody always says "yeah yeah" money's the problem and the solution but "what are ya gonna do". Answer: Retake control of the Monetary system as the current one is a Legal private monopoly, according to British Economist Anthony Sutton.

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