Are we purely material beings or do we have souls?

[James R]

I have seen claims on this forum that human beings have souls, and that souls are separate from bodies and can live on after the death of the body, either by being reincarnated or by going to a different plane of existence, a heaven or a hell perhaps. Some people equate the "mind" with a soul.

On the other hand, the best available science suggests that the "mind" is purely a product of the brain, and there appears to be no good evidence for the existence of any "soul" that survives the death of the brain.

If you believe in souls, here's your opportunity to explain why you believe in them, and to present your best evidence for their existence.

Note: you don't get to have your soul by default. It is not enough to say "You can't disprove the existence of souls, therefore they must be real." We can't disprove the existence of unicorns either.

 

[geordief]

Can it be maintained that we are both material beings and that we are stakeholders in a communal "soul"?

Firstly the use of the word "material" needs to be defined and I am very unclear as to how that can be done.

As the the second part of this I would suggest that the individual may be defined by its place within its social and material ( ) environment and so its sense of who it is is not a distinct thing but works in some kind of am osmotic way.

The idea of separate individual souls packaged up for some kind of holiday destination seems suited to an earlier understanding which it is very hard to fathom in retrospect .

My attempt at replacing that understanding does however fall down in the face of the clear realization that we will never know what actually happens subjectively to the sentient individual when that individual's life functions cease.

So everything is just an attempt to rationalize something that can't ever be understood.

 

[Michael 345]

Can it be maintained that we are both material beings and that we are stakeholders in a communal "soul"?

NO

Firstly the use of the word "material" needs to be defined and I am very unclear as to how that can be done.

Anything which can be detected and has properties

As the the second part of this I would suggest that the individual may be defined by its place within its social and material ( ) environment and so its sense of who it is is not a distinct thing but works in some kind of am osmotic way.

Not sure what this is BUT at a stab some sort of nature feel good feeling which seeps into the body

The idea of separate individual souls packaged up for some kind of holiday destination seems suited to an earlier understanding which it is very hard to fathom in retrospect .

Soul is a made up concept so religion can claim that while the body rots in the grave the soul has gathered up the essence of you to cart off to heaven

My attempt at replacing that understanding does however fall down in the face of the clear realization that we will never know what actually happens subjectively to the sentient individual when that individual's life functions cease.

As per above they rot in the grave sans any subjectivity

So everything is just an attempt to rationalize something that can't ever be understood

What's to rationalise?

Born

Live

Die


Not complicated




Then had to copy paste backup copy

 

[Tiassa]

Note: you don't get to have your soul by default. It is not enough to say "You can't disprove the existence of souls, therefore they must be real." We can't disprove the existence of unicorns either.

Well, at least you're not insulted by the idea of being soulless.

 

[Michael 345]

Well, at least you're not insulted by the idea of being soulless.

Or unicornless

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

So everything is just an attempt to rationalize something that can't ever be understood.

Before we attempt to understand or rationalise perhaps you could demonstrate the soul, do you have one in a jar? Have you seen one? All I suggest is before you let fantasy overtake you let us start to work with what you know rather than waffle and waste our time.

Cards on the table please what real information do you have on a soul that is more than unsupported fairey tale?

I have found that when you try and nail down the soul it is just a word that describes nothing that exists in reality so if you can take us past that I would be grateful to read something from you that indicates a soul is more than pixie dust..or perhaps bull dust.
Alex

 

[geordief]

Before we attempt to understand or rationalise perhaps you could demonstrate the soul, do you have one in a jar? Have you seen one? All I suggest is before you let fantasy overtake you let us start to work with what you know rather than waffle and waste our time.

Cards on the table please what real information do you have on a soul that is more than unsupported fairey tale?

I have found that when you try and nail down the soul it is just a word that describes nothing that exists in reality so if you can take us past that I would be grateful to read something from you that indicates a soul is more than pixie dust..or perhaps bull dust.
Alex

I think I was trying to find a meaning for the word "soul" that corresponded to something useful and was not distinct (not one for everyone in the audience)

My premise was that "soul" as currently and historically used was like a broken sign pointing to a town that did not exist


Can the idea of "soul" have any real application?I don't know ,but I am fairly sure people will continue to debate this down the years and probably with no real success

It is a good debating point though.

I don't ,as you ask intend to start with what I know because ,here I assess the sum of what I know to be zero or less.

I won't waffle though,I don't have the energy

Rereading your post though I must admit that ,as a Catholic child I did make physical space in my bed for my "guardian angel" so I did try to convince myself of pixie dust then.

 

[sculptor]

Transmigration of the soul
hmm.......................
would have the body as a host for the soul
much like a body as a host for a symbiote(in a science fiction series)?

one wonders if the body soul relationship is symbiotic, is it equally beneficial for both?

 

[Tiassa]

Or unicornless

It's a great line, in that it communicates both your faculty and priority.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

I think I was trying to find a meaning for the word "soul" that corresponded to something useful and was not distinct (not one for everyone in the audience)

Why the need to indulge unsupported fantasy?

My premise was that "soul" as currently and historically used was like a broken sign pointing to a town that did not exist

Why not call it for what it is..bullshit...no need for more than that.

Can the idea of "soul" have any real application?

No not at all.

I don't know

You have the facts and you still don't know..you are not trying then..

I am fairly sure people will continue to debate this down the years and probably with no real success

Like who ..a rat bag minority of a country who's population is only four and one half percent of the world's population...the declining number of cultists world wide..face it the concept is on the way out and with good reason...people are leaving the churches and rejecting the fairey tales and it's speeding up.

It is a good debating point though.

Sure next debate can be are unicorn horns made of gold or silver.

I assess the sum of what I know to be zero or less.

Is that your excuse to just make shit up?

I won't waffle though

But yet you do.

a Catholic child I did make physical space in my bed for my "guardian angel" so I did try to convince myself of pixie dust then.

OK damaged goods. Any chance of a recovery?

Anyways you don't have to worry about your non existent soul burning in a non existent hell...just worry if they are still hitting you up for cash.

Alex

 

[Michael 345]

Can the idea of "soul" have any real application?I don't know ,but I am fairly sure people will continue to debate this down the years and probably with no real success

From post 5

Soul is a made up concept so religion can claim thatwhile the body rots in the grave the soul has gathered up the essence of you to cart off to heaven

It is a good debating point though.

Might be if you have religious person and start quizzing them about souls

 

[geordief]

Is that your excuse to just make shit up?

Sure I make shit up but I will reassess my actions if I feel there are any adverse consequences to my imaginings.

You have the facts and you still don't know..you are not trying then..

I don't have much of a trying ethic. I have always waited for things to fall into place. (as I suggest above, I try to see this as a mind game than anything that consequential )

Why not call it for what it is..bullshit...no need for more than that.

Naturally averse to confrontation

Like who ..a rat bag minority of a country who's population is only four and one half percent of the world's population...the declining number of cultists world wide..face it the concept is on the way out and with good reason people are leaving the churches and rejecting the fairey tales and it's speeding up.

That would please me ,but then again what does my opinion matter,..not sure why you want to characterize whole segments of the population as belonging to a "rat-bag minority"..seems offensive






)

 

[(Q)]

Well, at least you're not insulted by the idea of being soulless.

Nah, but certainly insulted by those who would say I don't have one.

 

[(Q)]

Where is the soul located in the body?

 

[geordief]

Where is the soul located in the body?

It might be anywhere in the body that maintained a connection to its environment (so everywhere,including phantom limbs)

If I am still allowed to make shit up

 

[(Q)]

It might be anywhere in the body that maintained a connection to its environment (so everywhere,including phantom limbs)

If I am still allowed to make shit up

That's fair, but it begs the question of how the soul ( if considered an invisible, undetectable supernatural entity) can connect to the physical environment in that if it can should then be considered something physical or if it isn't physical, how it manages to connect to it's environment and still remain invisible and undetectable.

 

[geordief]

That's fair, but it begs the question of how the soul ( if considered an invisible, undetectable supernatural entity) can connect to the physical environment in that if it can should then be considered something physical or if it isn't physical, how it manages to connect to it's environment and still remain invisible and undetectable.

I am leaning to it being purely physical (which is why ,when we die and weigh the remains noone can find any extraneous weight-the "soul" dies along with the body)**.

In the same way that a word is physical (can be derived from its "first" gutteral expression and movement of molecules in caveman times ) but its meaning is metaphysical .

So the physical and the metaphysical are like conjoined twins.

The connection between the physical body and what is might consider its wider expression is what might be erroneously called a "soul"

**actually in relativity ,our "weight" also includes our relative movement ,so perhaps we do weigh less when dead? (we would curve spacetime less if we didn't move)

 

[(Q)]

I am leaning to it being purely physical (which is why ,when we die and weigh the remains noone can find any extraneous weight-the "soul" dies along with the body)**.

What you're saying then is that something that is physical cannot be detected? I don't think that would fly with most of science.

 

[geordief]

What you're saying then is that something that is physical cannot be detected? I don't think that would fly with most of science.

Well yes it can be detected because it is the whole physical body which has metaphysical properties.(I feel like a fish on a line,I realize that this is probably nonsense but I have to try and follow the "logic" of my half assertions)

The physical body can be detected ,and so can its thoughts but I wonder whether the connection of all that with the environment has some kind of related(metaphysical?) existence.

I know the Gaia theory has no takers ,but it is along those lines,perhaps with the world extending everywhere.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Sure I make shit up but I will reassess my actions if I feel there are any adverse consequences to my imaginings.

It's nice that you make the acknowledgement that you may make shit up and very nice that you will reassess your actions if you feel there are any adverse consequences to your imaginings for it is my witnessing of imaginings that finds me somewhat wound up over the last couple of days and I point to the Easter religious gatherings wherein participants arrogantly thumb their noses at calls for avoiding groups to help prevent spread of the virus.

I don't have much of a trying ethic

Me neither...I commit to doing also...so good for you.

Naturally averse to confrontation

Refreshing to find we hold such in common.

not sure why you want to characterize whole segments of the population as belonging to a "rat-bag minority"..seems offensive

Well I certainly did not intend to be offensive I think you are being over sensitive. Offensive would have me saying they were in the majority.

Enjoy your Easter holidays and let me say it has been an absolute pleasure chatting we must do it again sometime soon.
Alex