Athiesm, Punishment and Killing

Is killing justified under some circumstances?

  • I am a theist and I say NO

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  • I am a theist and I I have some other opinion

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  • Total voters
Ah so when they were shooting monks/priests/nuns/Jews/gypsies/untermenschen etc, when they were distributing pamphlets about the evils of religion and the scientific superiority of godlessness, they were not doing it because they were eugenicist atheists

You're describing a lot of beliefs there. As an example you mention "distributing pamphlets about the evils of religion" which clearly hints at a belief that religion is evil. That is not atheism - and while sure, many atheists might believe religion is evil, (as do many theists), believing that religion is evil is not atheism.

There are millions of atheists that do not think religion is evil, and sure, there are some that do. Their belief is not atheism.

But communism is not a religion

It is very much like it - worship, but not for gods.

You ought to realise that the tyrant Stalin, for example, did not promote atheism per se. What he promoted, essentially, was the idea of himself as a God-king.

From what I have read of the Soviet propaganda it appears to focus on atheism as a scientific belief, rather than any god-king promotion.
One of the primary methods for disseminating antireligious propaganda was through printed periodicals. The first antireligious monthly magazine, Revolutsiaa I tserkov (Revolution and the Church) was published in 1919, followed in 1922 by the short-lived Nauka I religiia (Science and Religion), which was replaced that same year by Bezbozhnik (The Godless). Bezbozhnik was published as a weekly newspaper between 1922 and 1934 and from 1938 to 1941, and as an illustrated journal from 1925 to 1941. Bezbozhnik was produced and distributed by the Society of the Friends of the Godless, founded in 1923, which became the Godless League in 1925 and the League of the Militant Godless in 1929. The League had three major goals: to demonstrate that religion in all its forms had always been an enemy of the workers; to prove that natural science explains everything, leaving no room for religion; and to convince people that socialism and religion are ethically incompatible, so religious observance was disloyal to the state.

A competing publication, Bezbozhnik u Stanka (Godless at the Workbench) was produced by the Moscow branch of the Communist party between 1923 and 1931. This publication was blunt in its tactics, and featured crude illustrations. (Many of the posters in this exhibition were originally published in Bezbozhnik u Stanka). The goal of Bezbozhnik u Stanka was to “expose the clergy as corrupted, religious ritual as unwarrantedly costly, and sacred arts as propagandistic.” Accordingly, it featured heavy use of caricature and stereotypes to create negative views of religion and religious figures.

There were many other antireligious publications, including Antireligioznik (The Antireligious, 1926-41), Derevenskii Bezbozhnik (The Godless Peasant, 1928-1932), and Yunye Bezbozhniki (The Young Godless, 1931-1933).

What promotion are you referring to?
Unless of course, the lack of belief itself is a belief. The term lack of belief assumes a void where nothing exists. What is the status of atheists in this regard?

What do you suppose those atheists who were shooting 1000 people a day were thinking of?


Nazi's were not atheists, nor was Hitler. On the contrary, he attempted to stamp out atheism by banning 'freethought' organisations.
That's the anti-religious movement, something more than atheism. These people had concerns about the effects of religion on the Socialist Revolution. Since I'm a Democrat, and religion doesn't conflict with my preferred method of government, why should I care what you believe? I might make some posters like that too, they do no harm. The point is, the Socialist Revolution was the ideology responsible for the deaths of so many political prisoners. The semantic issue is, you don't call the revolution a religion. It was very much like a religion in China.
That's the anti-religious movement.

Yes, which when directed at all theists and engaged in the promotion of a godless society, requires an atheist at the helm.

And it was repeated in China, Vietnam, Cambodia, North Korea, etc.

India too is a Socialist country, except that we're religious. Nehru was a great admirer of Marxism, did you know? :)

We even have a couple of Marxist states except the people following the socialist systems are religious.
Technically yes, the head of a Godless society should be an atheist, but atheism by itself doesn't cause persecution of religious people. It's only in relation to the ideology, one could say, the religion, of Socialism, that it could be any threat to the well-being of theistic people.
Technically yes, the head of a Godless society should be an atheist, but atheism by itself doesn't cause persecution of religious people. It's only in relation to the ideology, one could say, the religion, of Socialism, that it could be any threat to the well-being of theistic people.

Thats just semantics.

Socialism minus atheism, or communism minus atheism does not appear to have the same effects.
Alas this is one of the downsides but is not a problem with the justice system. The issue is that upon release most convicts find themselves unable to get a job and thus have little choice but to once again resort to crime.

Every job application you'll find makes people fill in conviction details. With hundreds of people going for the same job, any application with that section filled in goes straight in the bin. Be honest, as an employer which would you choose: The kid that went to university or the one that went to jail?

Once you have served the time for the crime it should be forgotten, giving the ex-con a fighting chance.

I guess it depends on what country your in and what disclosure/privacy laws are active. I have never been called upon in a job application to reveal past convictions details.

If the Authorities in your nation where smart they would see to it that such demands where illegal. The last thing an authority should want is a released prisoner who cannot find a job. Maintaining prisoners in the Prison system is a cost burden to the nation and anything that could be done to avoid former criminals re-offending is well worth putting into effect.

There are employers like child-minding providers that could have access to a data base held by the authorities of released sex offenders. No point taking a risk in such a sensitive area.

I think Authorities should even provide a job to released prisoners for a year as a way to help get them into a working habit and also help them achieve a state of normalcy and confidence in the outside community.

But i guess maybe their is a profit motive when a penal system is run by private profit making co-operations. I guess the more offenders the more people in prison and the greater the return to shareholders of business that run jails... maybe they might wish to actively discourage such positive policies by giving a few well places donations and whispering into the right persons ears. LOL Or maybe i am a bit to cynical about how this world is actually run. :)

All Praise The Ancient Of Days
No that was to polytheistic.

Most Japanese are not real believers in the mountain and sky and sea gods anymore. But they like their heritage and do support it. Also, there are a lot of good luck things associated with Shinto and so they tend to figure - hey, can't hurt.

Yeah, the Americans suppressed their Shinto Buddhism, pretty much like the Chinese are doing in Tibet today (minus the two nukes).

So are they polythiests? Or areligious?

You cannot blame the atrocities commited by Stalin on his atheism.
This is like saying Stalin was evil because he had a moustache, so did Hitler and so did Saddam Hussein, moustaches are the truth root of all evil!


You cannot blame the atrocities commited by Stalin on his atheism.
This is like saying Stalin was evil because he had a moustache, so did Hitler and so did Saddam Hussein, moustaches are the truth root of all evil!


No I blame it on his desire to promote atheism at the expense of theists' lives and freedoms.:)

Besides everyone knows that moustaches are a sign of pure evil.
Yeah, the Americans suppressed their Shinto Buddhism,
Where did you read that? I'd like to know the history.

Pre-WWII the Japanese themselves promoted Shintoism and tried to suppress Buddhism as part of a Japanese-Nationalist initiative (Buddhism was foreign and was aggressively attacked). However, the Shinto don't perform many services for the community - namely funerals. They do perform weddings. So there was no one to perform the funinral rites. It must havd pissed off enough Shinto monks and priests that they themselves complained that performing funerals was not part of their traditions anymore and that the co-religious arrangement between Shinto and Buddhist was what was best for Japanese people. On advice of Shinto, Buddhism was soon reinstated.

Note: If Americans in any way tried to legally or militarily suppress or even coerce the conversion of Japanese out of their indigenous beliefs I find that morally repugnant. They should have respected the Japanese native superstitions and supported them - not tried to manipulate or coerce the Japanese to give up their beliefs. Religious beleif is an important part of identity and culture.

ANY form of legal discrimination based on personal beleif is f*cking evil -
Wouldn't you agree SAM?
So are they polythiests? Or areligious?
I do not think that too many Japanese are polytheists. But actually some may be. The thing is, as the world opens up and people become more educated things like beleif in sea-daddies (Poseidon) and forest-daddies (Tapio) and sky-daddies (Allah) and mountain-daddies (Tmolus) slowly fade-away naturally.

That said, most Japanese that I know of are superstitious. They tend to have some sort of beleif in oni - local demons or ghosts. Also, if they are genetically inclined to be religious they usually become Buddhists. Or so I have noticed anyway.

Even in "Atheist" China when I meet Chinese they'll laugh out loud at the prospect of beleif in God (they're taught starting in grade 0 there are no Gods) but still believe in "lucky numbers" or even "luck" and not see that this is kind of the same type of irrationality.

Meh, I've come to accept it's partly genetic.

They had to devalue the Japanese Emperor for the occupation to succeed. So they abolished Shinto as a state religion and disarmed the Japanese armed forces.

Following Japan's surrender in 1945, the American occupation forces, realizing that Shinto had become such an intrinsic part of Japanese militarism, abolished state support for Shinto (The Shinto Directive of December 1945), and subsequently directed the Emperor to issue an official statement declaring that he was not of divine origin (The Imperial Rescript of January 1946). This conscious separation of religion and state has continued to serve as a foundation of Japan's constitutional monarchy so as not to allow such a union to occur again.

Basically they destroyed the basis of Japanese religion. They also attempted to dimantle Japanese zaibatsu or the economic conglomerate which define Japanese economy and were associated with the Japanese Empire. However they were less successful in that.

I guess it would be equivalent to the Lama declaring he was not a reincarnation of the Buddha under Chinese military force.