Black holes do not exist

Wrong the Retina is a three dimensional object .

Yes, all objects are 3D objects, soon they have two sides...
But this is not what we talk about.
The projection of light on the retina produce an information giving only the 2D aspect of the 3D object.

2D object can never exist . It is missing a key dimension . Hence can not manifest .

Not sure, some think that all informations in an black hole could be stored on his 2D surface.
WIkipedia said:
The holographic principle is a tenet of string theories and a supposed property of quantum gravity that states that the description of a volume of space can be thought of as encoded on a lower-dimensional boundary to the region—such as a light-like boundary like a gravitational horizon. First proposed by Gerard 't Hooft, it was given a precise string-theory interpretation by Leonard Susskind,[1] who combined his ideas with previous ones of 't Hooft and Charles Thorn.[1][2] As pointed out by Raphael Bousso,[3] Thorn observed in 1978 that string theory admits a lower-dimensional description in which gravity emerges from it in what would now be called a holographic way. The prime example of holography is the AdS/CFT correspondence.

The holographic principle was inspired by black hole thermodynamics, which conjectures that the maximal entropy in any region scales with the radius squared, and not cubed as might be expected. In the case of a black hole, the insight was that the informational content of all the objects that have fallen into the hole might be entirely contained in surface fluctuations of the event horizon. The holographic principle resolves the black hole information paradox within the framework of string theory.[4] However, there exist classical solutions to the Einstein equations that allow values of the entropy larger than those allowed by an area law, hence in principle larger than those of a black hole. These are the so-called "Wheeler's bags of gold". The existence of such solutions conflicts with the holographic interpretation, and their effects in a quantum theory of gravity including the holographic principle are not fully understood yet.[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle

No , the mind interprets the image in the 3D because the brain its self is made of three dimensional molecules . 2D can not become 3D .

The mind interpret the image in 3D because there is a special dedicated neuronal network doing the work in the visual system of the brain. The brain can not see in 3D, it uses 2D informations to recreate 3D information.

And he can be tricked...
Look :
Thats what you do with a sketch on a sheet of paper per example showing a cube "in 3D".
The sketch is in 2D (thats for sure), but the brain invent perspective and let you think the figure represent something in 3D.
But it is not, it is a sheet of paper...
 
Yes, all objects are 3D objects, soon they have two sides...
But this is not what we talk about.
The projection of light on the retina produce an information giving only the 2D aspect of the 3D object.



Not sure, some think that all informations in an black hole could be stored on his 2D surface.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle



The mind interpret the image in 3D because there is a special dedicated neuronal network doing the work in the visual system of the brain. The brain can not see in 3D, it uses 2D informations to recreate 3D information.

And he can be tricked...
Look :
Thats what you do with a sketch on a sheet of paper per example showing a cube "in 3D".
The sketch is in 2D (thats for sure), but the brain invent perspective and let you think the figure represent something in 3D.
But it is not, it is a sheet of paper...

Two Dimensions can never exist . Physically . Can you not understand this ?

What you see has depth . Distance .

The molecules that make up the brain are Not a piece of paper . They have depth . Three Dimensional dimensions .
 
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The piece of paper is a very thin piece of three dimensions . Seen .

Hence it has a very shallow depth . Just illustration depth . But three dimensional nevertheless .
 
Expand this piece of paper by 1000 sheets , piled on top of another .

The Three Dimensions become deeper than the original drawing on one sheet of paper . Naturally .

And extends beyond the pile . A piece of paper is not 2D .

2D can never be represented physically . Because it is always missing a dimension fundamental to the existence of All Things , Including Life .

Hence in reality 2D will never ever really exist .
 
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Hence in reality 2D will never ever really exist .
Two Dimensions can never exist . Physically . Can you not understand this ?
What you see has depth
But three dimensional nevertheless
2D can never be represented physically .

...
your comments suggest you have done no reading on this subject

here is a starter for you
Depth perception, which is the ability to judge if objects are nearer or farther away than other objects, is not present at birth. It is not until around the fifth month that the eyes are capable of working together to form a three-dimensional view of the world and begin to see in-depth.

https://www.aoa.org/healthy-eyes/eye-health-for-life/infant-vision?sso=y


https://www.aao.org/eye-health/tips-prevention/baby-vision-development-first-year

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/exploring-the-depths-of-vision/
All vertebrate animals (including humans) have two eyes these days. Humans have developed an amazingly complex visual processing system that allows us to collect and process a tremendous amount of information—in the blink of an eye! Our visual system is so good at processing information for us that we usually don’t even notice what it’s doing. In this activity we’re going to explore some of the amazing abilities of that system. So get ready to say, “thanks, eyes!”.

Background
Having two eyes gives humans (and other animals) many advantages in our daily lives. For example, having two eyes allows us to see a larger field of view. (To test this, cover your left eye and try to see something on that side of your head. Without moving—you can’t!) In addition, the eyes of humans and some other predators are special because they are positioned on the front of our heads. This gives us what is known as binocular vision, where our two eyes work together to see the world around us. Some animals, particularly prey like rabbits and mice, have eyes positioned on either side of their heads. These animals have what is known as monocular vision, where the information coming from each eye is different, and there is little to no overlap between the visual fields of the two eyes.

Depth Perception
~@~!~*~~@~!~*~~@~!~*~~@~!~*~~@~!~*~
3D is a cognitive process function like language
thus the innate perception is 2D
which then the brain compares the two 2D objects/perceptions & processes them with a language to render a resultant conceptual mental perception of the 3D physical world/item

~@~!~*~~@~!~*~~@~!~*~~@~!~*~~@~!~*~
 
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...
your comments suggest you have done no reading on this subject

here is a starter for you


https://www.aoa.org/healthy-eyes/eye-health-for-life/infant-vision?sso=y


https://www.aao.org/eye-health/tips-prevention/baby-vision-development-first-year

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/exploring-the-depths-of-vision/


Depth Perception
~@~!~*~~@~!~*~~@~!~*~~@~!~*~~@~!~*~
3D is a cognitive process function like language
thus the innate perception is 2D
which then the brain compares the two 2D objects/perceptions & processes them with a language to render a resultant conceptual mental perception of the 3D physical world/item

~@~!~*~~@~!~*~~@~!~*~~@~!~*~~@~!~*~

2D objects never , ever exist , physically . Ever .
 
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Two Dimensions can never exist . Physically . Can you not understand this ?

You dont understand that i am not saying 2D physical objects exists.

I dont know any physic proposition that would fully met the claim.
So i propose, perhaps some quantum definition, and perhaps we could use the string theory to claim that 2D "objects" can be observed in our world.

I think that your confusion about that comes from that you dont take in account that "exist" has nothing to do with our good sens of what reality is.
If someone (a scientist i suppose) can propose a physic definition of a 2D physical object, this mean that "it exists".
Nothing more, nothing less.
If you cant admit this point, you cant understand scientific results and you will always be confused about what reality is (so you would do philosophy (i like philosophy, but it is not what we talk about here), not science).

What you see has depth . Distance .

Thats the point.
What you see... has no depth because it has no distance !

If you were like the owl, you would have the ability to hear in 3D (using his brain) !
We, on other side, can only hear in 3D restricted to left/right (so we can not distinguish very clearly up from down signals).

With one ear, we and the owl, can partialy hear in 3D, but why are we not able to see in 3D ?
Because when we hear, the signal (the sound) coming from distant source do not travel very fast.
So we can distinguish little difference in the time of arriving of "some sound" coming from some object doing sound and have some partial 3D direct sens.
But with light, the time of arrival are blured because all photons come at almost the same time when they come from a standard common source.

Now, to gain better representation of how the sound is in 3D, we use our brain (like for the visual system).
With 2 ears, we can so distinguish the left or right origin of "the sound" (that is composed of many sound waves...).
Owl has "an ear" placed higher that the other on his face (its a hole like for every birds) and so het can also distinguish the up and low origin of the sound.
We can not use the differential in the time of arriving of the sound wave like the owl, to distinguish the up and down origin of the sound.
We use an other not so efficient system (related to the shape of the ear and the absorbsion of the sound wave by the flesh).

Saying that, you see that the differential system that can permit to recognize directly the origin of the wave is not
possible with light waves.
Light is too fast and we dont see any difference in time arrival even if the objet would be 1 km tall.
(We use the optical blur/clear system to do some distinction of course, but... it is not on the retina, but in the visual system so into the brain that these operations occur)

The system used to see 3D for light, is to use the projection on the flat retine : And here we loose the information of the 3D origin of light.
So no, we dont see in 3D, because we loose at first glance the 3D information because of the projection of the light on a flat support.

The molecules that make up the brain are Not a piece of paper . They have depth . Three Dimensional dimensions .

Yes, probably, but it has nothing (or is very far related) to do with the problem.

This discussion is interresting i think, because it help to understand what we talk about reality.
Per example, here, we talk about waves (sound waves, light waves), but a wave has nothing in it (it is not a local self property like we could say about mass) that say where it comes from...

Furthermore, wave is generaly composed by a tremedous amount of "particles" (so yes phonons and phtons are not the same but let say that), and if we want to talk more fundamentaly about the 3D ness or 3D ness of objects, we should, in my opinion, restrict our toughts to the particles.
 
You dont understand that i am not saying 2D physical objects exists.

I dont know any physic proposition that would fully met the claim.
So i propose, perhaps some quantum definition, and perhaps we could use the string theory to claim that 2D "objects" can be observed in our world.

I think that your confusion about that comes from that you dont take in account that "exist" has nothing to do with our good sens of what reality is.
If someone (a scientist i suppose) can propose a physic definition of a 2D physical object, this mean that "it exists".
Nothing more, nothing less.
If you cant admit this point, you cant understand scientific results and you will always be confused about what reality is (so you would do philosophy (i like philosophy, but it is not what we talk about here), not science).



Thats the point.
What you see... has no depth because it has no distance !

If you were like the owl, you would have the ability to hear in 3D (using his brain) !
We, on other side, can only hear in 3D restricted to left/right (so we can not distinguish very clearly up from down signals).

With one ear, we and the owl, can partialy hear in 3D, but why are we not able to see in 3D ?
Because when we hear, the signal (the sound) coming from distant source do not travel very fast.
So we can distinguish little difference in the time of arriving of "some sound" coming from some object doing sound and have some partial 3D direct sens.
But with light, the time of arrival are blured because all photons come at almost the same time when they come from a standard common source.

Now, to gain better representation of how the sound is in 3D, we use our brain (like for the visual system).
With 2 ears, we can so distinguish the left or right origin of "the sound" (that is composed of many sound waves...).
Owl has "an ear" placed higher that the other on his face (its a hole like for every birds) and so het can also distinguish the up and low origin of the sound.
We can not use the differential in the time of arriving of the sound wave like the owl, to distinguish the up and down origin of the sound.
We use an other not so efficient system (related to the shape of the ear and the absorbsion of the sound wave by the flesh).

Saying that, you see that the differential system that can permit to recognize directly the origin of the wave is not
possible with light waves.
Light is too fast and we dont see any difference in time arrival even if the objet would be 1 km tall.
(We use the optical blur/clear system to do some distinction of course, but... it is not on the retina, but in the visual system so into the brain that these operations occur)

The system used to see 3D for light, is to use the projection on the flat retine : And here we loose the information of the 3D origin of light.
So no, we dont see in 3D, because we loose at first glance the 3D information because of the projection of the light on a flat support.



Yes, probably, but it has nothing (or is very far related) to do with the problem.

This discussion is interresting i think, because it help to understand what we talk about reality.
Per example, here, we talk about waves (sound waves, light waves), but a wave has nothing in it (it is not a local self property like we could say about mass) that say where it comes from...

Furthermore, wave is generaly composed by a tremedous amount of "particles" (so yes phonons and phtons are not the same but let say that), and if we want to talk more fundamentaly about the 3D ness or 3D ness of objects, we should, in my opinion, restrict our toughts to the particles.
Be warned. River is a, how should I put this, special case. You will get nowhere trying to explain anything to river. Many of us have tried and most gave up long ago.
 
it uses 2D informations to recreate 3D information

= "Language" ?

and if we want to talk more fundamentally about the 3D ness or 3D ness of objects, we should, in my opinion, restrict our thoughts to the particles.

river appears to be stuck with these 2 concepts glued together for some reason
almost like a religious belief might be
but religious theological logic is closely aligned to scientific logic in its human interactive thought conceptualization
all be them very different aspects of humanity

they stick together awkwardly like odd pieces of leggo you dropped on the floor, & now can not pull apart and they don't match but are stuck by some small commonality.


when the "desire to believe" has been so heavily invested into something to illicit emotional reward\it becomes highly difficult to unravel it inside a logic model that is not already lent up against a false wall for convenience

be that ego, function or survivalism
 
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Be warned. River is a, how should I put this, special case. You will get nowhere trying to explain anything to river. Many of us have tried and most gave up long ago.

This is not a problem for me, i know that science is not the final and full comprehension of our world.
So, in such, if he dont agree with someone who say that science can explain the world, he is right.
But if he dont agree with someone who say that science is only a usefull way to act in this world, and deny some rational reasoning justified by facts, he is wrong.

Most of scientists and many non sientists who only repeat what they have heard from scientists, dont know what science is capable of.
They overestimate the capability of science.
This is because, today, most scientist never had interest in philosophy (and are not interrested in epistemology) and did directly science for all pratical purpose (they are some sort of engineers).
This is a new way to practice science (never seen 100 years ago).

This is why paradoxically, science is actually in competition with religion and this is why people find religious peoples praticing science, self contradicting or "originals"..
Science is now some new religion.
You are asked to believe in science, as if all would be a question of belief (not of faith but who know what could come next :rolleyes:)... and to choose between science and religion.
 
Dicart said:
it uses 2D informations to recreate 3D information
="language"?

Language.
You mean there could be some misundestanding of what we mean when we speak about 2D ou 3D information ?
Yes, probably.
Science is all about information expressed in term of concepts.
We create the concepts within our toughts and for some we name and use theses concepts in logical affirmations, mostly in natural language.
If i think about "a cat", without any langage, i can.
It happen for this visual primary information in some lateral brain area (there is some "activation").
What is interresting, is that the area activated as we think about (the visual part of) the cat object is the same when we actualy see a real cat (with our eyes).
So there are primary concepts, like here the cat, that come from the experience of our sens.

For most advanced being, like us, human, we can also use the cortex to associate a word to these concepts.
This, by further logical association of words, so the language, permit to say anything without the need to have ever experienced the assumption before.
So, 2D, 3D, those are concepts associated to words and their meaning depend of the experience of the individual and how he associate it to other words.
I dont think we have, internaly, all the same conception of the 2D and 3D concepts, but we can use the mathematical definitions to talk about the same.
Here, i was talking about the 2D and 3D information, so a chimarea permit by the language composed of the dimension (2,3,4... and so forth) and the information.
This is not real, it is a chimaera, but usefull to understand why if we loose the infomations contained by 3D object during the projection onto the 2D retina, we can not access to this 3D information again in a reliable matter.
We need to see the 2D objet from different point of view, so moving around, or we can use what we already believe we know about the 3D objet (like some real object we already know in real 3D world).
But this is a non reliable reconstruction.
 
This is not a problem for me, i know that science is not the final and full comprehension of our world.
So, in such, if he dont agree with someone who say that science can explain the world, he is right.
That's not the issue. The problem is that it is near impossible to even have a rational debate with River.
This is how a typical "conversation" goes:
River: "A"
You: An explanation as to why "A" is not a valid argument.
River: "Then B."
You: An explanation why "B" is also an invalid argument.
River: " How about C?"
You: Further explanation as to why "C" isn't correct either.
River: Aha! But what about A?!
Rinse and repeat...
 
Dicart said:
This is not a problem for me, i know that science is not the final and full comprehension of our world.
So, in such, if he dont agree with someone who say that science can explain the world, he is right.

Not right but not bad either .


That's not the issue. The problem is that it is near impossible to even have a rational debate with River.
This is how a typical "conversation" goes:
River: "A"
You: An explanation as to why "A" is not a valid argument.
River: "Then B."
You: An explanation why "B" is also an invalid argument.
River: " How about C?"
You: Further explanation as to why "C" isn't correct either.
River: Aha! But what about A?!
Rinse and repeat...

So then , lets start this rational discussion as of now .
 
Language.
You mean there could be some misundestanding of what we mean when we speak about 2D ou 3D information ?
Yes, probably.
Science is all about information expressed in term of concepts.
We create the concepts within our toughts and for some we name and use theses concepts in logical affirmations, mostly in natural language.
If i think about "a cat", without any langage, i can.
It happen for this visual primary information in some lateral brain area (there is some "activation").
What is interresting, is that the area activated as we think about (the visual part of) the cat object is the same when we actualy see a real cat (with our eyes).
So there are primary concepts, like here the cat, that come from the experience of our sens.

For most advanced being, like us, human, we can also use the cortex to associate a word to these concepts.
This, by further logical association of words, so the language, permit to say anything without the need to have ever experienced the assumption before.
So, 2D, 3D, those are concepts associated to words and their meaning depend of the experience of the individual and how he associate it to other words.
I dont think we have, internaly, all the same conception of the 2D and 3D concepts, but we can use the mathematical definitions to talk about the same.
Here, i was talking about the 2D and 3D information, so a chimarea permit by the language composed of the dimension (2,3,4... and so forth) and the information.
This is not real, it is a chimaera, but usefull to understand why if we loose the infomations contained by 3D object during the projection onto the 2D retina, we can not access to this 3D information again in a reliable matter.
We need to see the 2D objet from different point of view, so moving around, or we can use what we already believe we know about the 3D objet (like some real object we already know in real 3D world).
But this is a non reliable reconstruction.

Last statement

Are you saying that three dimension is the non-reliable reconstruction ? To to clear here .
 
Dicart

We need to see the 2D objet from different point of view, so moving around, or we can use what we already believe we know about the 3D objet (like some real object we already know in real 3D world).

You will never physically see 2D object from any point of view , nor " moving around " . 2D can never physically exist , ever .
 
Dicart



You will never physically see 2D object from any point of view , nor " moving around " . 2D can never physically exist , ever .

Until we understand this as a truth , we will continue to be missing a part of the Universe that we could understand .
 
That's not the issue. The problem is that it is near impossible to even have a rational debate with River.
This is how a typical "conversation" goes:
River: "A"
You: An explanation as to why "A" is not a valid argument.
River: "Then B."
You: An explanation why "B" is also an invalid argument.
River: " How about C?"
You: Further explanation as to why "C" isn't correct either.
River: Aha! But what about A?!
Rinse and repeat...

River's brain is like a Pythagorean cup. Partly full it is OK

Put to much in and it all drains out

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_cup

:)
 
Janus58 said:
That's not the issue. The problem is that it is near impossible to even have a rational debate with River.
This is how a typical "conversation" goes:
River: "A"
You: An explanation as to why "A" is not a valid argument.
River: "Then B."
You: An explanation why "B" is also an invalid argument.
River: " How about C?"
You: Further explanation as to why "C" isn't correct either.
River: Aha! But what about A?!
Rinse and repeat...


River's brain is like a Pythagorean cup. Partly full it is OK

Put to much in and it all drains out

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_cup

:)

Then challenge my rational .

On what is A based ?
 
Last statement

Are you saying that three dimension is the non-reliable reconstruction ? To be clear here .

Because a part of the information included in 3D is lost while we process the projection on a 2D media (here, specificaly while the projection on the retinae, but it is a general issue with all projections toward lower dimension). We are not sure at 100% that what we know (using this 2D information) is what is "in reality" at distant place.
We could be abused by some illusion (and believing there is a 3D object paint on a paper of sheet is already some sort of illusion, but we dont pay attention of it).
By chance, our experience with comon objects permit us to understand (reconstruct) right in most cases.

But think about that : If you were chained all your lifetime and could only see the shadows of objects at distance, could you understand the 3D dimension of the 3D objects, so reconstruct the missing information using the informations from the 2D shapes ?
No, you can not gain information by moving around (or see the object rotate, same with other point of view).
So, the 2D information is not reliable (this is a mathematical certain fact) and you would have to use guess (but by gessing, using theory then... you could some time understand right , but nothing is certain).

Plato who was philosopher and mathematician knowed this already many centuries ago :

Wikipedia said:
The Allegory of the cave, or Plato's Cave, is an allegory presented by the Greek philosopher Plato in his work Republic (514a–520a) to compare "the effect of education (παιδεία) and the lack of it on our nature". It is written as a dialogue between Plato's brother Glaucon and his mentor Socrates, narrated by the latter. The allegory is presented after the analogy of the sun (508b–509c) and the analogy of the divided line (509d–511e).

In the allegory, Socrates describes a group of people who have lived chained to the wall of a cave all their lives, facing a blank wall. The people watch shadows projected on the wall from objects passing in front of a fire behind them and give names to these shadows.

The shadows are the prisoners' reality, but are not accurate representations of the real world.
Three higher levels exist: the natural sciences; mathematics, geometry, and deductive logic; and the theory of forms.

Socrates explains how the philosopher is like a prisoner who is freed from the cave and comes to understand that the shadows on the wall are actually not reality at all. A philosopher aims to understand and perceive the higher levels of reality. However, the other inmates of the cave do not even desire to leave their prison, for they know no better life.[1]

Socrates remarks that this allegory can be paired with previous writings, namely the analogy of the sun and the analogy of the divided line.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave
 
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