Can Jews, Christians and Muslims cooperate more? Can Atheists assist them?

[Dennis Tate]

Generally... my world view is vastly more optimistic than it was back in 1988!

Back then..... frankly I doubted that I would still even be alive in the year 2021.

Everything that I write is somewhat flawed..... because my understanding of the truly big and important questions is also flawed..... I am somewhat ignorant...... even on the topics that I am most well informed on..... but I now have hope that Atheists are in an amazing position to broker a vastly increased level of cooperation between Jews, Christians and Muslims....... based on the way that Atheists respond to the across the board unusual experience of "near death experiences."

I have heard Mr. Dannion Brinkley refer to himself as an "Atheist" but....
he has done a pretty amazing job of assisting religious people, especially in the USA military, to find some common ground as they listen to his fascinating lectures on what he feels happened to him during his several brushes with death.

 

[Dennis Tate]

One of the webpages that has me convinced that Atheists are in a special position to act as ambassadors between Jews, Christians and Muslims is:


https://www.near-death.com/philosophy/atheism-and-ndes.html

Near-Death Experiences of Atheists
By Kevin R. Williams, B.Sc.
1.Atheist's NDE Analysis
2.Joel
3.Ned Dougherty
4.Louis Famoso
5.Howard Storm
6.Carl Jung
7.George Rodonaia
8.Karl Jensen's Research
9.Thomas Sawyer
10.Arthur Yensen
11.Joni Maggi
12.Don Brubaker
13.Dannion Brinkley
14.Beverly Brodsky
15.Kerry Kirk

 

[Jeeves]

The conflicts are not based on religion. If we had a few competent atheists in charge of fixing the allocation of lands and resources, the religious nonsense would fade out - just as it has during previous periods of peace and prosperity.

 

[Dennis Tate]

The conflicts are not based on religion. If we had a few competent atheists in charge of fixing the allocation of lands and resources, the religious nonsense would fade out - just as it has during previous periods of peace and prosperity.

Would you say that I am probably being terribly naive to believe that Isaiah chapter thirty five combined with an ancient Islamic prediction has the potential to
significantly decrease tensions between Israel and her neighbouring Islamic nations?

Book 005, Number 2208:
"Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (way peace be upon him) as saying: The Last Hour will not come before wealth becomes abundant and overflowing, so much so that a man takes Zakat out of his property and cannot find anyone to accept it from him and till the land of Arabia becomes meadows and rivers."
SAHIH MUSLIM, BOOK 25: The Book on General Behaviour (Kitab Al-Adab)

Isaiah 35: 1, 6,7
¶
The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.

Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
Isa 35:7

And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.

 

[Jeeves]

Would you say that I am probably being terribly naive to believe that Isaiah chapter thirty five combined with an ancient Islamic prediction has the potential to
significantly decrease tensions between Israel and her neighbouring Islamic nations?

If it got the US to stop selling them weapons, it would work. Israel is not the biggest obstacle anymore.
No, I don't think you're naive; I think you're about bring this forum to its knees.

 

[Dennis Tate]

If it got the US to stop selling them weapons, it would work. Israel is not the biggest obstacle anymore.
No, I don't think you're naive; I think you're about bring this forum to its knees.

Truly well said!!!!

The very fact that so many Israelis visited an Islamic nation once they were allowed to do so......
impresses me as being a sign of good things to come in the not too distant future!?



Jumping Jehoshaphat! Have You Seen How Many Israelis Just Visited the U.A.E.?

I was Googling around the other day for a factoid: how many Israelis had visited the United Arab Emirates since the signing of their normalization agreement, known as the Abraham Accords. Answer: more than 130,000.

Jumping Jehoshaphat, Batman! In the middle of a global pandemic, at least 130,000 Israeli tourists and investors have flown to Dubai and Abu Dhabi since commercial air travel was established in mid-October!

 

[Jeeves]

That doesn't solve any of the large problems. It's about money moving around, looking to mate and multiply.
That is one of the large problems.

 

[Dennis Tate]

That doesn't solve any of the large problems. It's about money moving around, looking to mate and multiply.
That is one of the large problems.

But it is amazing what can happen when intelligent and sincere people simply begin to meet together and begin discussions aimed toward finding more common ground that they can work together on?

Feel free to be somewhat annoyed that a mere janitor would
use such a pedantic sounding title for this discussion.... but as we get into the third and fourth pages of replies.... you will see that I was being quite serious.

http://www.sciforums.com/threads/unified-field-theory-of-modern-world-problems.164127/

Unified Field Theory of Modern World Problems

 

[sculptor]

Which Jews
Which Muslims
Which Christians
Garrison Keillor told another one about Unitarians: “A sign at the Unitarian church said: 'Bible study at 7:00. Bring your Bible and a pair of scissors.”

within each religion you will find a broad spectrum from zealots to liberals to universalists

 

[Dennis Tate]

Which Jews
Which Muslims
Which Christians
Garrison Keillor told another one about Unitarians: “A sign at the Unitarian church said: 'Bible study at 7:00. Bring your Bible and a pair of scissors.”

within each religion you will find a broad spectrum from zealots to liberals to universalists

Yes.... I term myself a "Christian Universalist" or Messianic Gentile Universalist......
but an amazingly well informed Atheist several years ago informed me that my variation of belief in Theistic Evolutionary Theory was considered by him to be a legitimate branch of Atheism. I am sure though that a high percentage of Atheists would probably tend to disagree with him?!


http://www.sciforums.com/threads/theistic-evolutionary-theory.164102/
Theistic Evolutionary Theory

 

[Beer w/Straw]

As by Atheist do you mean someone whom focuses only on reality?

 

[Dennis Tate]

As by Atheist do you mean someone whom focuses only on reality?

If that is the way you would like to view reality......
that is totally your choice......
but your choices can "evolve" and improve......
and so can mine?

www.CarbonBias.blogspot.ca/

 

[RainbowSingularity]

Atheists are in an amazing position to broker a vastly increased level of cooperation between Jews, Christians and Muslims....... based on the way that Atheists respond to the across the board unusual experience of "near death experiences."

a concession to whos power ?
the atheist gives up their power of independence & hands that power off to the institutionalized anti gay religious leaders to become even more powerful ?

what concessions of power will the churches be giving up at the same time ?
and
whom will they be handing that power over to ?

you notice the Vatican went out of its way to pretend its still doing something for ordinary people by saying they have made the hard work to come to a decision to not bless same sex marriages & couples.

must have been a really hard job for them.

why give people like that more power ?
and
not only more power, but taking that more power off someone else to do so.

soo effectively your telling atheists they need to reward church leadership with more power.

for what ?
what is the product or money atheists are getting from the churches ?

... "nothing" is the reality

and then the debate subject suddenly gets changed to be not about money or power over others or laws or governments, or sex, but instead its suddenly all liberalism and spirituality.

which world leaders with thier fingers on the nuclear buttons is not a institutionalized church member ?

china ? & north korea
thats it !
all the others are conventional institutionalized church going people who have made public shows of demonstrating publicly they are effective church members.

Generally

Can Jews, Christians and Muslims cooperate more? Can Atheists assist them?

can middle eastern people stop their civil wars and cross border conflicts ?
can African people stop their civil wars & cross border conflicts ?

Can NDE accounts decrease the probability of a nuclear WWIII?

giving indoctrinated religious zealaots the affirmational scientific proof of life after death is probably only going to fuel them to be suicide bombers even more.

remember DPRK leader made a claim he was going to build a nuke that could destroy the usa
all that brinkminship stuff with iran in the background
now the houthi rebels are launching anything they can get their hands on against chemical weapons attacks

translating your question into its fundamental parts of the reality of those whom would gladly & do send ignorant indoctrinated pawns off to their death to kill & persecute soft targets...
do they want their own civilization specifically including their religion
wiped out with a global nuclear war ?
probably not

that doesn't mean that some other tin pot lunatic wont launch what ever they can get their hands on thinking they are protected by their newly armed middle class militia or god

my answer to the question doesn't fit any of your options
i think if NDE's were proven to suggest a strong link to life after death or other existence reality's, it would vastly increase the homicidal suicidal attacks by some people
while it may also serve to pacify a more urban modern civilization to some extent
however
we are human animals at the bottom of every rosary bead chain
and that animal raises other little animals
those baby animals grow up needing to stretch boundary's & break rules

the softer society becomes, the more it will produce serial killers as sociopathic nurture conditions develop
mediating that is only possible by advancing mental health science significantly & re-organizing society's values toward personal self esteem and self development
rather than iconography and material greed and jealously.

many half baked brain washed people call that type of social structure socialism
and they are violently opposed to it.

 

[Dennis Tate]

a concession to whos power ?
the atheist gives up their power of independence & hands that power off to the institutionalized anti gay religious leaders to become even more powerful ?

what concessions of power will the churches be giving up at the same time ?
and
whom will they be handing that power over to ?

you notice the Vatican went out of its way to pretend its still doing something fr ordinary people by saying they have made the hard work to come to a decision to not bless same sex marriages & couples.

must have been a really hard job for them.

why give people like that more power ?
and
not only more power, but taking that more power off someone else to do so.

soo effectively your telling atheists they need to reward church leadership with more power.

for what ?
what is the product or money atheists are getting from the churches ?

... "nothing" is the reality

and then the debate subject suddenly gets changed to be not about money or power over others or laws or governments, or sex, but instead its suddenly all liberalism and spirituality.

There is a segment of religious people who would tend to take the Christian Andreason NDE account as well as the many controversial statements by him very seriously...........
all religions are subject to change......
as better and better and better information comes in that the church members can relate to and fit into their world view.

These ideas really had me scratching my head for a while.....
until I was able to process the cognitive dissonance that this information generated for me.


https://www.near-death.com/experiences/gay/christian-andreason.html#a11

If this world was to ever find out just a small amount of what sexually diverse (gay) people are here to do on this planet, there would never be one single wisecrack or hurtful remark made ever again. Instead there would be great respect! People who speak disrespectful things about people of this orientation ... enact judgment, and do so from a place of unenlightenment, insecurity, ego and socially induced prejudice. Some may use mistranslated scriptures taught to them, not by the Holy Spirit ... but by fear-filled human beings. Many will choose to sustain a Divinely unsupported satanic hate-based rage against these children of God, rather than using Love to bring understanding and healing between both peoples. Christ said, THE GREATEST COMMANDMENT IS THAT WE ARE TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER! When people sling condemnation, judgment and bitterness at others, they are not practicing the great commandment. They are allowing their Souls to fall into darkness.


a. What were you told or shown about this issue?
When I got to Heaven, one of the first things I asked was about the very issue of bisexuality, as it had caused me a great deal of concern my whole life. My lady guide walked me to a room that had a large screen in it. On the screen, I saw two forms of Light conjoining with one another in the act of making Love. My guide then asked me to tell her which was the male and which was the female? I said, "I dunno!" She smiled at me and said it does not matter. She went on to say that the two Lights were what God saw when he looked upon us. She explained that God always sees us as our higher selves and that gender is a very temporary thing that will not be around forever. It was further explained to me that God himself is both a Mother essence and a Father essence to us, therefore; God fully understands our attractions for members of similar genders. It was told to me (or rather I was reminded) that there are no mistakes in the way each of us were made. God knew what each of us would be challenged and blessed with. We each act according to our heart (or developed Soul center) and as we mature Spiritually, we come up higher each time.

 

[Dennis Tate]

Which Jews
Which Muslims
Which Christians
Garrison Keillor told another one about Unitarians: “A sign at the Unitarian church said: 'Bible study at 7:00. Bring your Bible and a pair of scissors.”

within each religion you will find a broad spectrum from zealots to liberals to universalists

Well said.....
and I do believe that somebody who thinks of themselves as a Skeptic or Agnostic or Atheist might just be able to take a look at what near death experiencer Robert Mendelson was shown about how to bring Shalom to the Holy Land that most of us Theists might find too offensive?!

I found that his book "God's Peace Plan for the Holy Land" made much more sense to me after I read his other book "The Way of Holiness and the Sacred Hoop."


http://godspeaceplan.org/books-download-page/

God's Peace Plan Arabic Version (final)
God's Peace Plan English God's Peace Plan for the Holy Land
God's Peace Plan Hebrew God's Peace Plan Hebrew Version (final)
Way of Holiness and the Sacred Hoop Way of Holiness & the Sacred Hoop
What's Going On in the Holy Land What_s Going On In The Holy Land
Map of the Holy Land Map of the Holy Land
Map of the Holy Land Map of the Holy Land (Arabic & Hebrew)

I also see great potential in the NDE account of Bruce MacDonald to decrease tensions and increase dialogue and cooperation between a significant percentage of Jews with a significant percentage of Christians and Muslims.

www.ThomasTwin.com/

http://www.thomastwin.com/6 A Thomas background.html

and....

Pages 137 to 170 in this book addresses the number one cause of anti-Semitism by Christians as it has played out over these past eighteen centuries with a brilliance that rather shocked me.

(2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/gthlamb.html

 

[Dennis Tate]

.......

my answer to the question doesn't fit any of your options
i think if NDE's were proven to suggest a strong link to life after death or other existence reality's, it would vastly increase the homicidal suicidal attacks by some people
while it may also serve to pacify a more urban modern civilization to some extent
however
we are human animals at the bottom of every rosary bead chain
and that animal raises other little animals
those baby animals grow up needing to stretch boundary's & break rules

the softer society becomes, the more it will produce serial killers as sociopathic nurture conditions develop
mediating that is only possible by advancing mental health science significantly & re-organizing society's values toward personal self esteem and self development
rather than iconography and material greed and jealously.

many half baked brain washed people call that type of social structure socialism
and they are violently opposed to it.

I am of the belief that our religious beliefs have so little back up in good information and logic that we are terribly insecure
and defensive about what we believe........
I am of the firm belief that Jewish scholars can become less insecure in their beliefs if they will listen to Orthodox Jewish near death experiencer Rabbi Alon Anava......

I believe that Christians who listen to various Christian near death experiencers will become more open minded to different ways of expressing spirituality........

and Islamic scholars should find encouragement in the way that near death experiencer Kevin Williams has written up the topic of near death experiences for an audience of Muslims......
(for the record if I knew of another good source for an article on NDE accounts other than for this one ... I would give it... .but this is the best I have found so far)...... I do not own any shares in near-death .com but I like the fact that their articles can be read free of charge......

Near-Death Experiences and Islam
By Kevin R. Williams, B.Sc.
Table of Contents
1.Mebruke's Near-Death Experience
2.The Sufi Way of the Heart
3.The Prophet Muhammad's Journey to Heaven
4.Muslim Afterlife Beliefs

Although I am ninety nine percent certain that near death experiencer Kevin Williams would not term himself as being a Muslim.....
his articles on the NDE accounts of Muslims is one of the most positive series of articles on the religion of Islam that I have ever read.

 

[RainbowSingularity]

all religions are subject to change......

all things are subject to change
Buddha(monotheists reading this you will be quite wrong in thinking Buddha is a single figurehead of a singular person god aspect)
teaches that all struggle is resistance against what is natural and natural is the only way to achieve enlightenment
so while all things change all people must change and in that change they remain the same
the same purpose
the same person whom they seek to be
and all things become peaceful in the removal of violence of the struggle to resist change.

but that is very very advanced stuff which i have paraphrased for you from ancient texts

conflict is created by the struggle to resist change

change is the natural state of all things

generic religious conservatives tend to define their own power of group identity to seek power as a force to never change & validate that power as a self expression of self identity from a state of fear of change.
this creates conflict inside them and between them & others.

I am of the belief that our religious beliefs have so little back up in good information and logic that we are terribly insecure
and defensive about what we believe........

I believe that Christians who listen to various Christian near death experiencers will become more open minded to different ways of expressing spirituality........

that may or may not create your desired effect

look how long it is taking the catholic church(& other christian church groups, Mormons seventh day Adventist baptist etc etc) to accept same sex couples & marriage, more so considering how the priesthood has been a safe haven & collecting point for homosexual men.

i avoid discussing religion most of the time
but that doesn't mean i have not read extensively on various religions

and Islamic scholars should find encouragement in

equally experimental recreational drug use
which has been in various cultures & religions for many thousands of years
look at current modern versions of those religions who all preach hate towards drugs and teach people to fear them and define them as evil.

that is quite a brick wall to learning & enlightenment

equally
people who experience a life changing event or experience often wish to share that
there are some human behaviors in modern humans that share various other aspects which i will not get into
but every coin has another side & an edge
those other sides of coins are not evil as many religions would want to indoctrinate you to believe.

that is one of the big reasons why many religions attack psychology science & attack science in general
because they fear science proving their lies wrong and loosing their control over other people(slavery)

humans tend to have a certain amount of natural ignorant thinking
it helps them survive for thousands of years

you are not about to suddenly change how that works by attempting to assert your own person hopes & dreams through what you perceive as a free gift to someone who doesn't want it.
as female equal rights people say
a fish doesn't need a bicycle

im sure there is no end of people jumping on the NDE bandwagon like the evangelical church money grubbers greed and power merchants in the USA seeking to self anoint and lie manipulate and steal peoples money by the millions

the fragile damaged ego that has been partially indoctrinated by fascist christian and fascist Islamism seeks to find another master
NDE is not the answer for them because that is not the question being asked.

 

[Dennis Tate]

all things are subject to change
Buddha(monotheists reading this you will be quite wrong in thinking Buddha is a single figurehead of a singular person god aspect)
teaches that all struggle is resistance against what is natural and natural is the only way to achieve enlightenment
so while all things change all people must change and in that change they remain the same
the same purpose
the same person whom they seek to be
and all things become peaceful in the removal of violence of the struggle to resist change.
...........

im sure there is no end of people jumping on the NDE bandwagon like the evangelical church money grubbers greed and power merchants in the USA seeking to self anoint and lie manipulate and steal peoples money by the millions

the fragile damaged ego that has been partially indoctrinated by fascist christian and fascist Islamism seeks to find another master
NDE is not the answer for them because that is not the question being asked.

Back during the 1990's I termed myself a "Christian Buddhist" a number of times due to my not knowing what to call a Christian.... who believed in reincarnation????

On the plus side of NDE accounts I think it was in the book Transformed By The Light by a Dr. Melvin Morse....
he referred to a study done on people who had attempted suicide recently.....

... one group was simply given near death experience accounts to read and there were zero additional attempts of suicide by anybody in that group
during the duration of the study......

... He concluded that simply seeing some evidence that there is a purpose in our lives can reduce tendencies toward suicide.

 

[RainbowSingularity]

Back during the 1990's I termed myself a "Christian Buddhist" a number of times due to my not knowing what to call a Christian.... who believed in reincarnation????

On the plus side of NDE accounts I think it was in the book Transformed By The Light by a Dr. Melvin Morse....
he referred to a study done on people who had attempted suicide recently.....

... one group was simply given near death experience accounts to read and there were zero additional attempts of suicide by anybody in that group
during the duration of the study......

... He concluded that simply seeing some evidence that there is a purpose in our lives can reduce tendencies toward suicide.

wow

if they all killed themselves a week or 2 after the study finished who was there to record it ?

such a study would be illegal in all 1st world countrys

the only people who might be able to carry out such a study would be the military on their own enlisted personal
but they would discharge them the moment they attempted suicide and then assign the therapy to private practice to avoid financial accountability.

can you post a link to that study
or a link to that person mentioning the study ?

sounds like a fake study created as lies
then spread to others to reference
such behavior is VERY common in certain christian churches
i have discussed sch things at length with theologians & members of such churches
so i am well aware of it

my guess would be born again christian camps
where attendees have reported suicidal ideation to church leaders who have not refereed them to professionals and instead given them reading material from their church
then reported that none of them have attempted suicide during that 3 day or 1 week period
then reported the study had been completed

thats pretty close to pure evil even though they may not intend to be evil
the outcome is evil

religion should come only after emergency medical assistance

FYI i am not against born again christians having their big gay al's big gay al sanctuary sex party reform camps
(refer to south park episode)

but when you divert someone reporting suicidal ideation away from mental health professionals your the one taking control.
and such people MUST be held accountable

 

[Dennis Tate]

wow

if they all killed themselves a week or 2 after the study finished who was there to record it ?

such a study would be illegal in all 1st world countrys

the only people who might be able to carry out such a study would be the military on their own enlisted personal
but they would discharge them the moment they attempted suicide and then assign the therapy to private practice to avoid financial accountability.

can you post a link to that study
or a link to that person mentioning the study ?

sounds like a fake study created as lies
then spread to others to reference
such behavior is VERY common in certain christian churches
i have discussed sch things at length with theologians & members of such churches
so i am well aware of it

I read his book during the 1990's and the study that he was referring to could have been in the late eighties or early nineties.....
and some pretty big names in Psychology were researching NDE accounts from lots of different angles back at that time.

If I remember correctly... I am pretty sure this is the book...

https://books.google.ca/books/about/Transformed_by_the_Light.html?id=CvdkpivQQB0C&redir_esc=y