Can someone explain...

[Enigma'07]

... the differance between Sufism and Islam.

 

[Tiassa]

By the time you become a Sufi, you are free to abandon all religious observances. Sufism is in a Western analogy, "Islamic mysticism," though that is a superficial way of looking at it. Additionally, Sufis sometimes claim to hold the original religion, and also to predate Islam itself. Sometimes I get the impression that Sufism is the human incarnation of the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular°.
_____________________

Notes:

° Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular - except that Perdurabo did not mean what he said. There is something overlapping 'twixt Perdurabo's Fourteenth Lie and Sufism that I'm unable to put to words, owing some frustration to the gap separating the quiet pomposity of Sufism and the brazen provocation of Perdurabo. The Fortieth Lie might be of some help, but neither Sufism nor Perdurabo can be viewed properly by looking at it straight-on.

 

[Leo Volont]

... the differance between Sufism and Islam.

A few points:

Sufism predates Islam. Sufism is traceable to pre-Islamic and even pre-Christian ascetic mystical traditions. If you are looking for a historic starting point, probably Zorastrianism -- the Eternal Battle between Good and Evil, the Good being represented by Light and the Eternal Flame.

During the Golden Age of Islam, Sufism was tolerated by Islam and was very popular across the Arab World, especially in Persia and Northern India. But the stupider barbarians who invaded Islam in the 12th, 13th and 14th Centuries could not comprehend anything beyond a simplistic Fundamentalism and so they persecuted the Sufi Sects. When the Mongols effectively wiped out the population of Persia (wiping out 99.9% of the Primary Historical Sources of Persian Civilization) most of what we know about Sufism was destroyed. But from the sources we do have, we know that Modern Sufis have obviously lost their Mantle -- the Pre-Mogol Sufis were Magical as well as Mystical: Miracles, flying carpets, objective dreaming, clairovoyance -- they had control of the entire Supernatural Cookbook. Now they just talk, talk, talk... about how great they used to be.

The Sufis can be preposterously egotistical, in the Collective sense. For instance. Islam had invaded a Catholic Spain, and it was a Catholicism as far away from the Greek Paulists as Christianity could get. The Spanish Church was greatly influenced by the direct Missionary Intercessions of the Supernatural Virgin Mary Herself and then by Her dedicated Saints. Spain is where the Catholic Church became Marian. But Islam had not invaded Spain until well into the 7th Century. I read books today that say that because Sufis of the 12th Century were heads over heals in Love with the Feminine Aspect of the Divine, that it must have been the Sufis who brought Marianism to the Catholic Church in the 7th Century. It simply does not follow, except in a 'cart-before-horse' kind of way. Their narrow minded "The World Revolves around Sufism" point of view refuses the obvious interpretation -- that the Sufi Sects in Spain learned Devotion to the Feminine Aspect of God from the Catholic Devotees of Mary. They certainly did not pick it up from Zorastorianism. But then the filthy-minded Sufi dogs turned the Marian Devotion into an excuse for pornographic poetry with the thinnest veils of mystical religiousity. They are not very ascetically accomplished if they cannot think of the Feminine Aspect of Divinity without arousing their nether regions. Perhaps it was this sacrilege which prompted God to send the Mongol Hurds to destroy Sufi Civilization, while stopping the barbarians exactly at the border of the Catholic World.

But Sufism has been an influence toward Ecumenicism. They seem as at home with Catholics or Hindus as Islam, although the Fundamentalists of any Religion will have problems with the Sufis. You see, the Sufis are primarily Mystical. Since Religions are genuine in proportion as they can arrive at Mystical Truths, the Sufis are not at all uncomfortable with Genuine Religions. But Sufism has generally been associated with Islam since Islam has hosted and tolerated Sufism the longest and the best.

But understand that Sufism is just a name. Really, other Mystical Traditions would not be distinguishable from Sufism if were not for differences in language and geography. The Catholic Church has similar Mystical Contemplative Orders. The Sanskrit Traditions have Mystical Orders also.

 

[fahrenheit 451]

I'd let Sufi himself answer this one, Enigma, he know's it from the source.

 

[surenderer]

Not true(in my humble opinion).....The word “Sufism” was not known at the time of the Messenger or the Sahaabah (companions) or the Taabi’een (Companions of the Companions of the Prophet). It arose at the time when a group of ascetics who wore wool (“soof”) emerged, and this name was given to them. It was also said that the name was taken from the word “soofiya” (“sophia”) which means “wisdom” in Greek. The word is not derived from al-safa’ (“purity”) as some of them claim, because the adjective derived from safa’ is safaa’i, not soofi (sufi). The emergence of this new name and the group to whom it is applied exacerbated the divisions among MuslimsThe Sufis worship others than God, such as Prophets and “awliya’” [“saints”], living or dead. They say, “Yaa Jeelaani”, “Yaa Rifaa’i” [calling on their awliya’], or “O Messenger of Allaah, help and save” or “O Messenger of God, our dependence is on you”, etc.But God forbids us to call on anyone except Him in matters that are beyond the person's capabilities. Some Sufis believe in wahdat al-wujood (unity of existence). They do not have the idea of a Creator and His creation, instead they say that everything is creation and everything is God. I know these things from Sufi's in my family and from hearing Sufi on these boards posts.I do not disrespect him however i do not agree that he is practicing true Islam but that is between him and the creator.......peace

 

[Leo Volont]

I'd let Sufi himself answer this one, Enigma, he know's it from the source.

If Sufi knew anything, he'd say so. But he just quotes from a few books that he bought yesterday. He is probably 16 years old and has studied Sufism for about 5 minutes now.

You don't want to listen to me because I am well past middle age and have studied Sufism long enough to be dismissive of it.

 

[Leo Volont]

Not true(in my humble opinion).....The word “Sufism” was not known at the time of the Messenger or the Sahaabah (companions) or the Taabi’een (Companions of the Companions of the Prophet). It arose at the time when a group of ascetics who wore wool (“soof”) emerged...

You are confusing the word with the thing. Sufism is more than the word which attaches to it. It is a continuity of Tradition that goes all the way back to where it started.

If you think Words are the only Reality then obviously you are the wrong person to ask about anything Spiritual. Maybe you should look into opportunities like driving cabs or being a convenience store clerk.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

A few points:

Sufism predates Islam. Sufism is traceable to pre-Islamic and even pre-Christian ascetic mystical traditions. If you are looking for a historic starting point, probably Zorastrianism -- the Eternal Battle between Good and Evil, the Good being represented by Light and the Eternal Flame.

During the Golden Age of Islam, Sufism was tolerated by Islam and was very popular across the Arab World, especially in Persia and Northern India. But the stupider barbarians who invaded Islam in the 12th, 13th and 14th Centuries could not comprehend anything beyond a simplistic Fundamentalism and so they persecuted the Sufi Sects. When the Mongols effectively wiped out the population of Persia (wiping out 99.9% of the Primary Historical Sources of Persian Civilization) most of what we know about Sufism was destroyed. But from the sources we do have, we know that Modern Sufis have obviously lost their Mantle -- the Pre-Mogol Sufis were Magical as well as Mystical: Miracles, flying carpets, objective dreaming, clairovoyance -- they had control of the entire Supernatural Cookbook. Now they just talk, talk, talk... about how great they used to be.

The Sufis can be preposterously egotistical, in the Collective sense. For instance. Islam had invaded a Catholic Spain, and it was a Catholicism as far away from the Greek Paulists as Christianity could get. The Spanish Church was greatly influenced by the direct Missionary Intercessions of the Supernatural Virgin Mary Herself and then by Her dedicated Saints. Spain is where the Catholic Church became Marian. But Islam had not invaded Spain until well into the 7th Century. I read books today that say that because Sufis of the 12th Century were heads over heals in Love with the Feminine Aspect of the Divine, that it must have been the Sufis who brought Marianism to the Catholic Church in the 7th Century. It simply does not follow, except in a 'cart-before-horse' kind of way. Their narrow minded "The World Revolves around Sufism" point of view refuses the obvious interpretation -- that the Sufi Sects in Spain learned Devotion to the Feminine Aspect of God from the Catholic Devotees of Mary. They certainly did not pick it up from Zorastorianism. But then the filthy-minded Sufi dogs turned the Marian Devotion into an excuse for pornographic poetry with the thinnest veils of mystical religiousity. They are not very ascetically accomplished if they cannot think of the Feminine Aspect of Divinity without arousing their nether regions. Perhaps it was this sacrilege which prompted God to send the Mongol Hurds to destroy Sufi Civilization, while stopping the barbarians exactly at the border of the Catholic World.

But Sufism has been an influence toward Ecumenicism. They seem as at home with Catholics or Hindus as Islam, although the Fundamentalists of any Religion will have problems with the Sufis. You see, the Sufis are primarily Mystical. Since Religions are genuine in proportion as they can arrive at Mystical Truths, the Sufis are not at all uncomfortable with Genuine Religions. But Sufism has generally been associated with Islam since Islam has hosted and tolerated Sufism the longest and the best.

But understand that Sufism is just a name. Really, other Mystical Traditions would not be distinguishable from Sufism if were not for differences in language and geography.The Catholic Church has similar Mystical Contemplative Orders. The Sanskrit Traditions have Mystical Orders also.

*************
M*W: Leo, you have such a tremendous fund of knowledge on the subject, I was wondering if this is a self-taught interest you have or are you a professional educator on this subject?

 

[surenderer]

You are confusing the word with the thing. Sufism is more than the word which attaches to it. It is a continuity of Tradition that goes all the way back to where it started.

If you think Words are the only Reality then obviously you are the wrong person to ask about anything Spiritual. Maybe you should look into opportunities like driving cabs or being a convenience store clerk.

Hmmmm...... Ive never showed you any disrespect in your posts but for some reason you feel the need to be disrespectful to me :bugeye:I cant help but wonder how spiritual you are if you cant take a differing opionion do your angels tell you to talk to other this way?I realize that Mystism predates islam but i am talking about the Sufism which distortes Islam. Mystism "branches off" to many different sects and I am only refering to the Sufi branch not any other "Mystical" branch.The Sufism I am refering to has numerous branches or tareeqahs, such as the Naqshbandiya, Qaadriya, Chhishtiya, Saharvardiya, Shaadhiliyyah, Rifaa’iyyah, Rehmaaniya, Rizviya, Subhaniya, Gausiya, Teejaaniyah, Sanusiyyah, Sahiliyyah etc. the followers of which all claim that their particular tareeqah is on the path of truth whilst the others are following falsehood. Islam forbids such sectarianism. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):“… and be not of al-mushrikoon (the disbelievers in the Oneness of Allaah, polytheists, idolaters, etc), of those who split up their religion (i.e., who left the true Islamic monotheism), and became sects, [i.e., they invented new things in the religion (bid’ah) and followed their vain desires], each sect rejoicing in that which is with it.” [al-Room 30:31-32]..... If "Sufism had stopped calling themselves muslims then i wouldnt have a problem with it but their behavior is unislamic..... .stop trying to be an expert at everything because you have "studied" something doesnt make you more of an expert that a real Sufi on these boards or a real muslim on these boards you only make yourself sound like a grumpy-old-man.....peace

 

[Leo Volont]

*************
M*W: Leo, you have such a tremendous fund of knowledge on the subject, I was wondering if this is a self-taught interest you have or are you a professional educator on this subject?

Just an old man whose been around somewhat. I've been involved in Christian, Hindu (Yogic) and Buddhist Mystical Traditions. These all travel in the same circles as the Sufis and so you meet people and exchange books. Everyone visits everyone else (when a Catholic Monk goes on vacation, where do you think they go to be 'exotic'? -- they go to the Other Guy's Monastery and see what Spiritual Practices they do. ... and its a vacation because for a change they are not the ones who have to cook, clean, weed, and do the dishes).

 

[Leo Volont]

Hmmmm...... Ive never showed you any disrespect in your posts but for some reason you feel the need to be disrespectful to me

What, I take it that I am not supposed to call you stupid because you never called me stupid!? Well that would be fine if we both were actually stupid and were showing equal charity; however, you would be asking more of me then I of you. that would not be fair, would it?

 

[Leo Volont]

Sufism had stopped calling themselves muslims then i wouldnt have a problem with it but their behavior is unislamic...

See! Now ask yourself what Sufi has ever put Islam before Sufism. Just ask them who they are. Do they answer "I'm a stupid Muslim", or do they say "I am a Proud Sufi"?

You know you should be happy that a group as respected as the Sufis still care to apologize for a Religion with the questionable and tainted history of Islam. It only does you credit that they defend you.

But yeah, maybe you should blow them up too.

 

[surenderer]

See! Now ask yourself what Sufi has ever put Islam before Sufism. Just ask them who they are. Do they answer "I'm a stupid Muslim", or do they say "I am a Proud Sufi"?

You know you should be happy that a group as respected as the Sufis still care to apologize for a Religion with the questionable and tainted history of Islam. It only does you credit that they defend you.

But yeah, maybe you should blow them up too.

Boy whats with the split personality? Are you now saying that all muslims are terrorists? I guess the truth about you comes out have i given you any reason to think so? I have never disrespected Sufism i have only said that they should feel free to practice their religion but they shouldnt call themselves muslims because their prayers, actions, and behavior is not islamic. I have never called for their deaths or anything of the sort however it was YOU who posted:

Dear Farenheit,

Okay, now that I know what you are talking about, YES, Humanity deserves to suffer.

Is this not the same Humanity that murdered the Messiah?


Oh and to answer your question any Muslim puts Islam before anything else thus : surrender to Gods will

 

[surenderer]

You know you should be happy that a group as respected as the Sufis still care to apologize for a Religion with the questionable and tainted history of Islam. It only does you credit that they defend you.




Lets see what you said earlier:



If Sufi knew anything, he'd say so. But he just quotes from a few books that he bought yesterday. He is probably 16 years old and has studied Sufism for about 5 minutes now.

You don't want to listen to me because I am well past middle age and have studied Sufism long enough to be dismissive of it.



So dont pretend to be respectful of a religion you have "hung around" when you dismiss its follower on these boards and anyone else who doesnt agree with what you say

 

[Leo Volont]

Are you now saying that all muslims are terrorists?

What does it matter what I say? Islam now carries that stigma. Does it slow any of you bombers down? No! Not a bit. Nowadays its news when you Muslims DON'T blow something or somebody up.

Hey, you all danced in the streets on 9-11 and then you all deny being terrorists. We all just remember that you danced in the streets.

I'm sorry that the Zionists have invaded Pan Arabia. But you only have yourselves to blame. You allowed petty squabbles to obstruct Muslim Unity in the face of the Mongol Invasions and nothing has been the same since. If the Muslims had truly been brothers you would have been able to stand. The Catholics in Europe were able to face down, with Catholicism, dangers that Crushed the Muslims with their Islam. But your History went forward as the Barbarians that conquered you became Muslim. It must have weakened them too. They accepted defeat and allowed Britain, France and United States to parcel up the old Ottoman Empire. Again we saw that Muslims are not really Brothers. Each petty Shiek was more than willing to divide up the Muslim World as long as they could get their small patch. So divided, it was easy for the Zionists to invade and take over. But did you have to lay down for it?

The biggest weapon the Zionists had was their willingness to bribe politicians in first Britain and the America. But all that time there were Oil Rich Arabs who could have offset the Jewish bribes with Arab bribes. After all, bribery is at least more civilized that suicide bombs in baby carriages. But again the Muslim mind demonstrated itself. The Arab World spent its money on fancy cars and swimming pools and behaving like play boys -- while the Jews bartered up the third largest army in the world. And now you are all crying like babies or blowing up innocent people with bombs.

You only have yourselves to blame. Maybe you have a good Religion but you just aren't a Religious People. But in every crisis the Muslim People crumbled because of childish backbiting, and selfishness. I guess before a Religion can do you any good you will have to become Men first.

 

[surenderer]

What does it matter what I say? Islam now carries that stigma. Does it slow any of you bombers down? No! Not a bit. Nowadays its news when you Muslims DON'T blow something or somebody up.

Hey, you all danced in the streets on 9-11 and then you all deny being terrorists. We all just remember that you danced in the streets.

I'm sorry that the Zionists have invaded Pan Arabia. But you only have yourselves to blame. You allowed petty squabbles to obstruct Muslim Unity in the face of the Mongol Invasions and nothing has been the same since. If the Muslims had truly been brothers you would have been able to stand. The Catholics in Europe were able to face down, with Catholicism, dangers that Crushed the Muslims with their Islam. But your History went forward as the Barbarians that conquered you became Muslim. It must have weakened them too. They accepted defeat and allowed Britain, France and United States to parcel up the old Ottoman Empire. Again we saw that Muslims are not really Brothers. Each petty Shiek was more than willing to divide up the Muslim World as long as they could get their small patch. So divided, it was easy for the Zionists to invade and take over. But did you have to lay down for it?

The biggest weapon the Zionists had was their willingness to bribe politicians in first Britain and the America. But all that time there were Oil Rich Arabs who could have offset the Jewish bribes with Arab bribes. After all, bribery is at least more civilized that suicide bombs in baby carriages. But again the Muslim mind demonstrated itself. The Arab World spent its money on fancy cars and swimming pools and behaving like play boys -- while the Jews bartered up the third largest army in the world. And now you are all crying like babies or blowing up innocent people with bombs.

You only have yourselves to blame. Maybe you have a good Religion but you just aren't a Religious People. But in every crisis the Muslim People crumbled because of childish backbiting, and selfishness. I guess before a Religion can do you any good you will have to become Men first.

Well you know what?....I agree with you First of all driving around in limos and extravengant lifestyles are not usually what "humble" people do so i would even argue the fact that those in charge of Middle Eastern goverments are indeed muslims but i do agree that Muslims are their own worst enemy in alotta ways but to say that muslims were dancing in the steets everywhere after 9-11 is nothing but western hype and propoganda.Their were candlelight ceremonies in every Muslim country in the world (except maybe Iraq and Afganistan) remember China didnt fly their flag at half-mass after 9-11. Arab goverments are all pawns to the west....every one of them. But they by no means represent the Arab/Muslim people The West makes sure that those goverments stay in charge by saying the are trying to make Democracies in the Middle East yet their closest allies over their(except Israel) Saudi,Jordan,Kuwait.....not a democracy among them(not to mention Pakistian)Do you really think that the West wants democracies over their? If they did their wouldnt be a person elected that would have a pro-US stance and dont think America doesnt know it. I also agree that alotta muslims dont think in terms of the "ummnah"(muslim community) their should be no Iraqi or Kuwaiti etc.... only muslims but anyone who teaches different is considered a terrorist. Look at Sadr in Iraq...all he was doing was running a newspaper reporting the crimes that the US goverment was commiting in Iraq and his newspaper was shut down(freedom of press) and he was labeled a terrorist I agree that muslims need to take control of their lives but it's not easy for them/us when you have to fight those in charge AND "big brother" watching from overseas....peace

 

[Tiassa]

Leo Volont

• You don't want to listen to me because I am well past middle age and have studied Sufism long enough to be dismissive of it.

So, if I might be so bold ... what have you learned from your studies of Sufism?

 

[Leo Volont]

Leo Volont



So, if I might be so bold ... what have you learned from your studies of Sufism?

At work us old 'Fuds' have a thing we say to the younger workers, "I've forgotten more than you know about this stuff". That seems to be the position of Sufism in the Mystical Community. Nobody can question their pedigree and heritage, but they seem to have forgotten a lot. Where the Old Master were said to be able to dazzle the Golden Age of Islam with incredible Supernatural Powers, the Master of today can only talk, talk, talk... or write those large dull books with the big words that mean small things.

But nobody else in the Mystical/Spiritual Community is doing much better. I believe that my Angels might have a point in what they have told me -- that there is a Spiritual Drought, and ALL of the Higher Religions are thirsting.

The Good Thing about Sufism is that it is Historically poised between Christianity and the Sanskrit Yoga Traditions, with a huge influence on Islam. But if you wanted the widest variety of Spiritual Techniques that might actually someday work for you, it would probably be better to go to the Sanskrit Yoga Traditions. There is a Yoga Technique to fit any ability or inclination and there are more teachers and easier access to the programs. Plus, with all the semi-errotic poetry that is supposed to be 'spiritual' and with all the Dervish dancing around, I do not know whether Sufism is actually morally on the up and up. Too sensual and sissy-like for the serious Spiritualist... but that may be a matter of taste. Yoga seems more respected, more professional, more accessable and more promising. If Sufism makes broader claims, it is simply because Sufism finds it easy to talk.

 

[Tiassa]

Thank you very much, Leo Volont. You've helped me establish a context by which I might read and assess your words.

People following this discussion might think you have a point, but you have demonstrated otherwise.

And for those folks, I might advise the following: Discussing Sufism is a bit like discussing stand-up comedians and their material. Someone like Jerry Seinfeld, unwilling to answer the question of why his comedy relies on the stupidity of his audience, might choose to pretend his work has little or no communicative effect among his audience and ask why we would waste our time on such a question.

The object is to see it without focusing on it. Polishing the mirror becomes an act of faith.

 

[Leo Volont]

People following this discussion might think you have a point, but you have demonstrated otherwise.

I thought that my assessment had been too multifaceted and balanced for anybody to say I had a 'point'. But I guess that is what I learned about you. You see things which aren't there because you don't focus.