Classic Western Medicine

[leopold]

For the most part, I tend to agree. I would add that Western medicine tends to be inadequate with regard to a crucial aspect of maintaining health: preventative medicine.

for most people it's called primary health care.

 

[billvon]

The nineteen factor elements[/URL] for optimal well-being are listed as follows:
. . .
These are all considered to be equally important even though some might have a bigger impact over the short term. As you can see, Exercise and diet (wholesome food) get fairly equal billing.

Good list. Like I said, those are part of a healthy life. In many cases, so is medicine.

 

[trucetheeker]

"Allopathic"??? Thanks for using a red-flag word that immediately identifies you as a crackpot! It will save a lot of people the trouble of having to slog through a couple of your posts in order to discover that they're wasting their time on woo-woo.

"Allopathic" is a word used by the advocates of the discredited "homeopathic" system of medicine, because the two words are opposites. The former means "treatment by agents that cause conditions different from the disease," and the latter means "treatment by agents that cause the same conditions as the disease." There weren't any rocket scientists in the 19th century, but if there were, simply by looking at the words they could have quickly figured out which was the more promising type of treament.

I prefer this definition of Allopathic instead of your less enlightened viewpoint. My apologies for not defining the term at first usage.

From Wiki

Allopathic medicine refers to the practice of conventional medicine, and especially the practices now referred to as heroic medicine. It was coined by Samuel Hahnemann (1755–1843) in 1810. Although allopathic medicine was rejected as a term by mainstream physicians, it was adopted by alternative medicine advocates to refer pejoratively to conventional medicine.[1]

By even mentioning homeopathy, you have demonstrated that you know nothing about Natural Hygiene and therefore have everything to learn about health.

In their defense, homeopaths had a better success record than the medical profession because they were in effect not doing anything. Left alone, the body will do it's best to restore health. When persistent poisoning (drugs) and cutting are applied, it makes the body's job much harder.

...While some of your assertions are true, they have been taken out of context and blown out of proportion. The fact remains that modern scientific medicine has:

• Reduced infant mortality from around 80% to such a low rate in the western nations that it's barely measurable. Of course in the Third World it caused a population explosion, but hey the Rule of Unintended Consequences warned us that "You can never do just one thing."
• Eradicated smallpox, a scourge during my parents' childhood.
• Eradicated poliomyelitis, a scourge during my own childhood.
• Turned influenza from a lethal epidemic into one week of sick leave.
• Turned tuberculosis, diabetes and many other debilitating or lethal conditions into manageable ones.
• Saved people from heart disease.
• Replaced shattered knees and pelvises, reattached nerves, transplanted organs from people who didn't need them any more, and in many other ways turned invalids into fairly normal, healthy people.

For all its faults it simply has a better track record than the various forms of voodoo.

Actually very little of what you've listed here is true. It is mostly hype that the medical profession pedals despite all the evidence to the contrary.

• Any benefit provided by the medical profession in the infant mortality rate was overshadowed by improvements in sanitation and supply of clean water.
• Smallpox was never eradicated, just renamed.
  
  Natural Hygiene Approach to Smallpox
  

  It is claimed by medical historians that the vaccination process wiped out smallpox throughout the world. However, the truth is that compulsory vaccination was abandoned because more deaths were caused by the vaccinations than there were cases of smallpox. A slight of the hand trick was used to foster the claim that smallpox was eradicated by the vaccination practice. Everyone who had been vaccinated and who developed smallpox was diagnosed as having chicken pox!

• I've already discussed polio here
• Actually they've turned influenza into a global money-making industry. Create the hype, then sell countries the fix.
• Don't worry about removing the causes of TB, diabetes, etc. Just treat the symptoms. It's good for repeat business.
• By supporting the consumption of meat and dairy products, they've helped ensure a non-stop supply of heart disease customers. And at best, they're treating the symptoms of heart disease, not curing it.
• and I'm fairly sure that you're wrong about having a better record than voodoo but I cannot find the supporting reference. Hardly important in the scheme of things

It sounds like your complaint is really about modern post-industrial capitalism, not science itself.

Although I have plenty of issues with capitalism, my agenda here is pointing people towards a path where real health can be found. I have no expectation of changing anybody's mind.

 

[chimpkin]

"Latent syphilis is defined as having serologic proof of infection without symptoms of disease."

Uhhuh...what happens is it goes dormant for up to 20 years, and if untreated, will possibly wake up to eat your brain and spinal column in what is known as tertiary-stage syphilis.

How can you not know this?!?! Did you never take an STD prevention class? I guess not.
( from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syphilis#Tertiary)

Neurosyphilis refers to an infection involving the central nervous system. It may occur early being either asymptomatic or in the form of syphilitic meningitis, or late as meningovascular syphilis, general paresis, or tabes dorsalis, which is associated with poor balance and lightning pains in the lower extremities. Late neurosyphilis typically occurs 4 to 25 years after the initial infection. Meningovascular syphilis typically presents with apathy and seizure, and general paresis with dementia and tabes dorsalis.[1] Also, there may be Argyll Robertson pupils, which are bilateral small pupils that constrict when the person focuses on near objects, but do not constrict when exposed to bright light.

Fraggle said:
You've been spending too much time on SciForums.

I'll take that hypothesis under consideration

 

[leopold]

[*]I've already discussed polio here

this has already been smashed by james.

polio is a disease caused by a virus.
it is almost 100% preventable with the proper vaccination.
i say "almost" because i am not certain.
i DO know that since 1955 when the polio vaccine was introduced polio fell off the face of the planet here in the US.
before 1955 a full one third of the population was stricken with it.
edit:
http://kidshealth.org/parent/infections/bacterial_viral/polio.html
/edit.
so, what environmental factors are causes of polio?

 

[trucetheeker]

this has already been smashed by james.

Your definition of "smashed" being...? james' "smash" was "Polio existed long before DDT was even invented. Back to the drawing board on theory 3." Hardly counts as a return, much less a smash.

I like the way that this graph displays the emergence of pesticides just before the first polio epidemic. Neat, huh?

polio is a disease caused by a virus.
it is almost 100% preventable with the proper vaccination.
i say "almost" because i am not certain.
i DO know that since 1955 when the polio vaccine was introduced polio fell off the face of the planet here in the US.
before 1955 a full one third of the population was stricken with it.

You know nothing. You believe what you've been told.

so, what environmental factors are causes of polio?

Good question. Because so much research is stifled because "we already know the answer," very few people look into these things without winding up unemployed. That's the nature of medical science.

However, quick silver (mercury), arsenic, and lead appear to be favorite alternatives according to Ralph R. Scobey, M.D. in his statement entitled The Poison Cause of Poliomyelitis And Obstructions To Its Investigation. They were not the only ones:

In the spring of 1930, there occurred in Ohio, Kentucky, Alabama, Mississippi and other states an epidemic of paralysis.16,17 The patients gave a history of drinking commercial extract of ginger. It is estimated that at the height of the epidemic there were 500 cases in Cincinnati district alone. The cause of the paralysis was subsequently shown to be triorthocresyl phosphate in a spurious Jamaica ginger. Death resulted not infrequently from respiratory paralysis similar to the bulbar paralysis deaths in poliomyelitis. On pathological examination, the anterior horn cells of the spinal cord in these cases showed lesions similar to those of poliomyelitis.

There's plenty more evidence pointing at various insecticides as a common cause of polio but if the profession allowed this fact to proliferate, it would not only damage their reputations and income streams as disease fighters, it would give a black eye to the food industry and their lap dog, the FDA. Nope, because they care about us so much, they would prefer to lie through their teeth and keep us in the dark.

 

[billvon]

I like the way that this graph displays the emergence of pesticides just before the first polio epidemic. Neat, huh?

A friend of mine ended up getting sick right after she started acupuncture. Coincidence? I think not!

 

[Repo Man]

this has already been smashed by james.

polio is a disease caused by a virus.
it is almost 100% preventable with the proper vaccination.
i say "almost" because i am not certain.
i DO know that since 1955 when the polio vaccine was introduced polio fell off the face of the planet here in the US.
before 1955 a full one third of the population was stricken with it.
edit:
http://kidshealth.org/parent/infections/bacterial_viral/polio.html
/edit.
so, what environmental factors are causes of polio?

Forget it, this guy's a conspiracy theorist. You're just a sheeple man. You probably believe HIV causes AIDS too (snicker).
Seriously, just give up. When people have made up their minds, you can't confuse them with facts.

 

[leopold]

You know nothing. You believe what you've been told.

well, yes to the extent that it makes sense.
to believe that the introduction of polio vaccine and the disappearance of polio isn't related is crazy.
if the vaccine wasn't a vaccine then what was it? and for what purpose?

 

[leopold]

You probably believe HIV causes AIDS too (snicker).

for something so deadly that is transmitted through sex i don't see very many dying from it.

 

[James R]

for something so deadly that is transmitted through sex i don't see very many dying from it.

AIDS deaths in 2009: 1.6 to 2.1 million.
People living with HIV/AIDS in 2009: 31.4-35.3 million

You may not see many dying from it, but I'm guessing you live in the United States. So...

AIDS-related deaths in North America (2009): 26,000 (i.e. equivalent to 0.008% of the US population).
AIDS-related deaths in sub-Saharan Africa (2009): 1.3 million

About 68% of people living with HIV/AIDS live in sub-Saharan Africa.

Your personal experience doesn't really count for much here.

Source of the above information

 

[trucetheeker]

Originally Posted by trucetheeker
I like the way that this graph displays the emergence of pesticides just before the first polio epidemic. Neat, huh?

A friend of mine ended up getting sick right after she started acupuncture. Coincidence? I think not!

There's hardly enough information in your sentence to base a view on. If by sick, you mean she suffered from food poisoning or cancer, then it's unlikely to be connected with a recent acupuncture treatment. A cold, flu, measles, etc would indicate that her body had reached a level of toxicity in which a bit of housekeeping was required. This may very well have been stirred up by the stimulation of needles being inserted in various parts of her anatomy.

Alternatively, it could have been the level of toxicity that encouraged her to visit an acupuncturist in the first place and really the treatment was just coincidental to the emerging healing crisis.

 

[trucetheeker]

Originally Posted by leopold99
this has already been smashed by james.

polio is a disease caused by a virus.
it is almost 100% preventable with the proper vaccination.
i say "almost" because i am not certain.
i DO know that since 1955 when the polio vaccine was introduced polio fell off the face of the planet here in the US.
before 1955 a full one third of the population was stricken with it.
edit:
http://kidshealth.org/parent/infecti...ral/polio.html
/edit.
so, what environmental factors are causes of polio?

Forget it, this guy's a conspiracy theorist. You're just a sheeple man. You probably believe HIV causes AIDS too (snicker).
Seriously, just give up. When people have made up their minds, you can't confuse them with facts.

Repo Man, it's not clear who you're referring to when you say "this guy's conspiracy theorist" and "You're just a sheeple" and "probably believe HIV causes AIDS".

If you are referring to me then I'm perfectly happy with the first charge because although I haven't invented any conspiracy theories, there are plenty of them that I believe in based on the evidence available to me. Once you reach the level where you have valid reasons to distrust the established authorities in any given realm, then not trusting them in other matters becomes second nature. Being a "conspiracy theorist" is not an insult nor a threat to my career so anybody trying to use this McCarthy-ist attack can bathe in the disgust that they deserve. The same goes for anyone ignorant enough to give this attack any credence.

I don't accept the sheeple tag because the last thing that I am is a follower of the flock, blind or otherwise. And as for HIV and AIDS, I don't accept the existence of viruses so bang goes that for a start. People who attribute so much power to a bit of dead protein that lacks even one quality possessed by a "living" being are fantasists, harmless or otherwise.

AIDS has been successfully "activated" by giving HIV-positive people the AIDS medication and just as successfully "cured" when some of these people just quit taking the medication.

I cannot speak for people who get ill and then are diagnosed with AIDS but there are enough actual medical doctors who are blowing the whistle on this whole charade to discredit it for anyone with the ability of independent thought. I suspect that once sick people were diagnosed as having AIDS, any further attempt to seek the true cause of their illness came to a stop and instead they were put on the AIDS medication for life. Talk about a steady income stream!

I fully agree with your last statement:

Seriously, just give up. When people have made up their minds, you can't confuse them with facts.

It only remains to be seen if you are one of those people who are a slave to their beliefs or a true believer in scientific research.

 

[trucetheeker]

well, yes to the extent that it makes sense.
to believe that the introduction of polio vaccine and the disappearance of polio isn't related is crazy.

Actually, to believe that polio was eradicated by the polio vaccine requires ignoring a substantial amount of evidence. Only medical professionals and politicians seem to be allowed to ignore evidence to such extremes and get away with it. I suspect any engineers who dared to do this would soon find themselves swinging by the neck from their latest fiasco.

However, a politician, for example, can say that they're sending the military to bomb a city to save human lives despite the number of dead civilians piling up to the contrary and no-one can say they're wrong without being labelled unpatriotic or a fan of a despot.

A doctor can label your sniffles and headache as Swine Flu and, hey presto!, you're a Swine Flu statistic. If you die due to their attempts to stop the body detoxifying itself (i.e. giving drugs or ice packs to bring fever down) then you'll be one of those perfectly healthy people who died of Swine Flu!

if the vaccine wasn't a vaccine then what was it? and for what purpose?

By the time of the Salk vaccine, the "science" of vaccination had long been established as valid by the medical profession despite the dead and wounded littering it's glorious path. The lessons that had been learned during the 19th century, where mandatory vaccinations were introduced and then rescinded due to the death toll, were quickly forgotten and followed by mass vaccinations in the early 20th century for one thing after another. In every case, the number dying due to the vaccine far exceeded anyone "saved" but of course the medical fraternity and pharmaceutical companies will never admit to such a thing.

There's a considerable amount of reference material available on this subject and I cannot believe that so many people ignore it. If you're fed up with sheeple status, a good place to start getting informed it here:

VACCINES UNCENSORED: HISTORICAL MANIPULATION, SMALLPOX, AND POLIO


Of course, Information provided here is not intended to substitute for informed professional medical, psychiatric, psychological, tax, legal, investment, accounting, or other professional advice. If you desire or require professional advice, please consult a qualified provider who is licensed in your state or country. You should always seek independent professional advice in the applicable area before acting on any opinion, advice, or information accessed through this site.

 

[wellwisher]

Medicine does a lot of good things. However, the current state of the art (still called practicing and not opening day) has a huge gray area of statistical care that can be manipulated for business purposes.

For example, the various flu viri that appear each year may result in 40,000 deaths in the USA. Yet we will try to innoculate 300,000,000 people, if possible. The difference of 299,960,000 is the gray area. The science can not target closely and hand out only 1,000,000 vaccines for minimal waste. There are other pressure to sell more big macs since it will hlep the bottom line. There is no incentive to tighten the margin since the large margin is very lucrative. If anything if we could convince people to get it twice a years this would occur.

I am not saying doctors do this. But medicine is big business with bean counters and marketeers just doing their jobs. Their health concerns is are body called the corporation, which is healthier black than red.

 

[leopold]

By the time of the Salk vaccine, the "science" of vaccination had long been established as valid by the medical profession despite the dead and wounded littering it's glorious path.

the dead and wounded?
the "dead and wounded" STILL litters its path.
this is starting to get into morality here but i would gladly sacrifice the 0.005% to help the other 99.995%.

In every case, the number dying due to the vaccine far exceeded anyone "saved" but of course the medical fraternity and pharmaceutical companies will never admit to such a thing.

source of this statement?

VACCINES UNCENSORED: HISTORICAL MANIPULATION, SMALLPOX, AND POLIO

i'm not going to give you any hits.
what's the relevant parts in the link?

Of course, Information provided here is not intended to substitute for informed professional medical, psychiatric, psychological, tax, legal, investment, accounting, or other professional advice.

ooOOoo, very nice disclaimer.

If you desire or require professional advice, please consult a qualified provider who is licensed in your state or country. You should always seek independent professional advice in the applicable area before acting on any opinion, advice, or information accessed through this site.

damn, he's downright groveling!

 

[trucetheeker]

Originally Posted by trucetheeker
By the time of the Salk vaccine, the "science" of vaccination had long been established as valid by the medical profession despite the dead and wounded littering it's glorious path.

the dead and wounded?
the "dead and wounded" STILL litters its path.
this is starting to get into morality here but i would gladly sacrifice the 0.005% to help the other 99.995%.

Your sentiment might have some merit if indeed the sacrifice actually provided some benefit. The un-"official" evidence clearly indicates that this isn't the case.

In every case, the number dying due to the vaccine far exceeded anyone "saved" but of course the medical fraternity and pharmaceutical companies will never admit to such a thing.

source of this statement?

If there was just one source for this statement then it wouldn't be worth discussing. I will give a few sources to make my point but don't think that I'm even scratching the surface of the evidence proving the failure and complete fraud that is vaccination.

VACCINATION A DELUSION, ALFRED RUSSEL WALLACE, 1898

CHAPTER VI SUMMARY AND CONCLUSION

I have first shown the nature of the tests which seemed to the early enquirers to establish the protective influence of vaccination, and have given the facts which the two greatest living specialists on the subject—Professor Crookshank and Dr. Creighton—consider to prove the fallacy or insufficiency of all the tests which were applied. This is followed by a statement of the abundant evidence which in the first ten years of the century already showed that vaccination had no protective power (pp. 10-12). But the heads of the medical profession had accepted the operation as of proved value, and the legislature, on their recommendation, had voted its discoverer £80,000 of public money, and had besides, in 1808, endowed a National Vaccine Establishment with about £3,000 a year. Reputations and vested interests were henceforth at stake, and those who adduced evidence of the failure or the dangers of vaccination were treated as fanatics, and have been so treated by the medical and official world down to the appointment of the last Royal Commission....

...I then show the existence of so unreasoning a belief in the importance of vaccination that it leads many of those who have to deal with it officially to concealments and misstatements which are justified by the desire to "save vaccination from reproach." Thus it happened that till 1881 no deaths were regularly recorded as due to vaccination, although an increasing number of such deaths now appear in the Registrar-General’s Reports; while a few medical men, who have personally inquired into these results of vaccination, have found a large amount of mortality directly following the operation, together with a large percentage of subsequent disease, often lasting for years or during life, which, except for such private enquiries, would have remained altogether unknown and unacknowledged (pp. 18—22).

Smallpox Vaccination in the Phillipines 1905-1920

In the Philippines, prior to US takeover in 1905, case mortality from smallpox was about 10%. In 1905, following the commencement of systematic vaccination enforced by the US Government, an epidemic occurred where the case mortality ranged from 25% to 50% in different parts of the islands. In 1918-1919 with over 95% of the population vaccinated, the worst epidemic in the Philippine's history occurred resulting in a case mortality of 65%. The highest percentage occurred in the capital Manila, the most thoroughly vaccinated place. The lowest percentage occurred in Mindanao, the least vaccinated place owing to religious prejudices. Dr V de Jesus, Director of Health, stated that the 1918-1919 smallpox epidemic resulted in 60,855 deaths. The 1920 Report of the Philippines Health Service contains the following comments:

"From the time in which smallpox was practically eradicated In the city of Manila to the year 1918 (about 9 years) in which the epidemic appears certainly In one of its severest forms, hundreds after hundreds of thousands of people were yearly vaccinated with the most unfortunate result that the 1918 epidemic looks prima facie as a flagrant failure of the classic Immunization towards future epidemics".

from Dr. William Koch's book, The Survival Factor in Neoplastic and Viral Diseases

In 1918, the US Army forced the vaccination of 3,285,376 natives in the Philippines when no epidemic was brewing, only the sporadic cases of the usual mild nature. Of the vaccinated persons, 47,369 came down with small-pox, and of these 16,477 died. In 1919 the experiment was doubled. 7,670,252 natives were vaccinated. Of these 65,180 victims came down with small-pox, and 44,408 died. In the first experiment, one-third died, and in the second, two-thirds of the infected ones died.

I would get in trouble if I started quoting all the references on this one page alone so will put a few on and hope that it suffices.

THE SMALLPOX VACCINATION HOAX

Little vaccinated countries such as Australia and Russia had less smallpox and smallpox deaths, while smallpox declined without vaccination.

"Sanitation did for Prussia what 35 years of compulsory vaccination was unable to accomplish. At the present time in Prussia small-pox is almost extinct. (Cheers.) It is not that people ‘are being vaccinated more; they are vaccinated less."----Dr Hadwen MD (The Case Against Vaccination ---an address at Gloucester on Saturday, January 25th, 1896, during the Gloucester Smallpox Epidemic)

Leicester by itself killed vaccination stone dead by showing conclusively that sanitation was not only the main cause of smallpox and its dangers, but that it was more effective compared to vaccination, by a long street, and that vaccination was dangerous: 2,000 less babies died under 5 in their non-vaccinating years compared to their high vaccinating years.

"The town of Leicester rejected vaccination in favour of sanitation. Her experience during the past fifty years makes nonsense of the claims of the pro-vaccinists. When her population was thoroughly vaccinated she suffered severely from smallpox. As vaccination declined to one per cent of the infants born, smallpox disappeared altogether."---- Lilly Loat [Book 1951] The Truth About Vaccination and Immunization

VACCINES UNCENSORED: HISTORICAL MANIPULATION, SMALLPOX, AND POLIO

i'm not going to give you any hits.
what's the relevant parts in the link?

Sorry. The relevant part of this link is the whole page except for the menu at the top. On my laptop, I have to page down once to see the beginning of the information. For ease of access, here are a few entries from the page:

...if vaccines-and not better sanitation etc. – saved humanity from disease, then where are today's epidemic of Scarlet Fever victims for which no vaccine was ever administered? *** It is also imperative to understand that the definition + diagnosis of polio was dramatically changed when the polio vaccine was introduced, further manipulating statistics.

"The 'victory over epidemics' was not won by medical science or by doctors – and certainly not by vaccines... The decline has been the result of technical, social and hygienic improvement."
Gerhard Buchwald MD, Internal Medicine Specialist,Germany

Figures published in International Mortality Statistics confirm that from 1915-1958 the measles death rate in the U.S. and U.K. declined by 98% (five years before the creation of the measles vaccine)

And it just goes on and on...

ooOOoo, very nice disclaimer.

damn, he's downright groveling!

Just covering my ass as the medical profession can get quite shirty if they decide that you're infringing on their monopoly.

 

[billvon]

There's hardly enough information in your sentence to base a view on.

You're right. That's just as foolish as assuming a correlation between pesticides and polio based on coincidental timing.

 

[leopold]

Just covering my ass as the medical profession can get quite shirty if they decide that you're infringing on their monopoly.

if you are going to go around saying vaccinations are a sham then you need to stand behind what you are saying instead of groveling like some . . . well, nevermind.

anyway, i read one of your links, the one from 1898.
100 years? you can't be at all serious.

can you explain what happened to smallpox and polio?
you might be able to explain away smallpox but polio and its symptoms are obvious.

 

[chimpkin]

The most common cause of chronic fatigue I know very well...chronic sinus infection. I have it.

And before you tell me some woo-woo crap to get rid of it I have tried the woo-woo crap too. Or at least a lot of it.

If I bought really expensive water (AKA homeopathy remedies) my wife would laugh at me too hard.