Communists

[Dinosaur]

SpuriousMonkey: For the following opinion I would spit on you if you said it to my face.

I have seen the US with my own eyes. It is rotten to the core. I would shut up about it if I were you. There is nothing to brag about it. To me America is the biggest dump ever (from all western worlds).

You must be some kind of a fanatic, rabid America hater. I need only point out that there are more people who want to come to America than there are wanting to leave. If your opinion were valid, why should people want to come here? Once here, why would they stay? Once here, why do most do their best to get relatives to join them?

have you even lived somewhere else?

Yes, I have lived elsewhere. Due to the recommendation of some Jewish friends who knew I was not anti-Semitic, I was sent to Israel in the early 1960's to teach programming and set up a computer center for the Israeli DOD. I was there for over a year. In the 1970's, I spent about 15 months in Brussels doing contract programming work for NATO. I had some background in French & learned to speak well enough to get by. I have vacationed in various places, including: Switzerland, Egypt, India, Canada, Mexico, Panama, and some Mediterranean & Carribean islands. It was always my style in a foreign country to avoid tourist hotels and the places that tourists typically visit. If you stay in tourist hotels and visit tourist places, you might as well stay in America.

I usually rented a car and toured out of the way places, trying to meet natives and learn about the local culure. I liked Belgium, Switzerland, & Canada, and would consider them to be plausible places to live. I would not want to live in any of the other places I visited.

Dragon: In various posts you have mentioned living in both the USSR & America. You have strongly implied that you preferred the USSR, implying that life there was better. I wonder about your mind set.

I view America as going down hill for 50-70 years, but consider it still better than the USSR and most other places in the world. In the height of our industrial power, America manufactured and sold 10 million cars per year. Almost every ordinary family today and in the past 50 years owned at least one car, 2-4 TV sets, had excellent medical insurance as a company paid benefit, had all sorts of major household appliances, took vacations, went to movies, shopped in super markets & malls.

What did the typical citizen of the USSR have in the past? What do they have now? The USSR was able to manufacture nuclear weapons and orbit a few satellites. I wonder if they could manufacture 10 million first class paper clips per year. They were certainly never capable of manufacturing ten million cars per year. I wonder if there were ever as many as ten million functional autos in the USSR at one time. Has Russia ever had super markets and malls to compare to those found all over the USA? How many Russian citizens in the past 50 years have taken vacations a thousand or more miles from the USSR?

Communist Hamster: America does not run those so called sweat shops, the like of which never existed in America.

And to Dinosaur, have you taken into account the factories and sweatshops in the east which make most of the wests goods?

I wonder what alternatives the economies of those countries offer the sweat shop workers. I suspect that many of those workers are better off now than they were before America started buying from foreign counties.. I also expect that the children of those sweatshop workers will be better off than their grand parents due to becoming factory workers.

Any & all: Do any of you America haters have any knowledge of how America rebuilt Germany & Japan after WW2? Is there any other example of a victorius nation doing so much for a hated enemy?

 

[draqon]

Dragon: In various posts you have mentioned living in both the USSR & America. You have strongly implied that you preferred the USSR, implying that life there was better. I wonder about your mind set.

I view America as going down hill for 50-70 years, but consider it still better than the USSR and most other places in the world. In the height of our industrial power, America manufactured and sold 10 million cars per year. Almost every ordinary family today and in the past 50 years owned at least one car, 2-4 TV sets, had excellent medical insurance as a company paid benefit, had all sorts of major household appliances, took vacations, went to movies, shopped in super markets & malls.

What did the typical citizen of the USSR have in the past? What do they have now? The USSR was able to manufacture nuclear weapons and orbit a few satellites. I wonder if they could manufacture 10 million first class paper clips per year. They were certainly never capable of manufacturing ten million cars per year. I wonder if there were ever as many as ten million functional autos in the USSR at one time. Has Russia ever had super markets and malls to compare to those found all over the USA? How many Russian citizens in the past 50 years have taken vacations a thousand or more miles from the USSR?

I think you understood me wrong. You are indeed correct USA had more cars, tools, food, bigger and better standard of living to offer its citizens then USSR.
What USSR had is something totally different...it had social happiness...something lacking from USA...social happiness and freedom to go anywhere within the country. When in USSR a person felt very safe and cared for and loved nature and loved and cared for other people around him. If you still dont understand what I mean...see the Mao Zedong films of China...look at the faces of those people...they were hypnatised and felt very happy. It is like being cared by a big giant you dare not discuss and he shall protect you from all the evil and let you anywhere you wish to go in its realms. This is why Russia wanted to explore space, because its citizens felt higher state of freedom to nature, since political freedom was oppressed. I know its hard for you to accept this, but this is exactly how I felt and still feel when going to Russia every summer...the freedom and power...even though that power has faded as Russia further progresses into its "democratic" state. I really dont think communism would have worked anywhere else besides Russia and China, to truly be beneficial to the country.

 

[Communist Hamster]

Communist Hamster: America does not run those so called sweat shops

Oh, that makes it better then

the like of which never existed in America.I wonder what alternatives the economies of those countries offer the sweat shop workers. I suspect that many of those workers are better off now than they were before America started buying from foreign counties.. I also expect that the children of those sweatshop workers will be better off than their grand parents due to becoming factory workers.

They still get pittance for the work, far far less than they would get were they working in the US, or indeed anywhere in Europe.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

SpuriousMonkey: For the following opinion I would spit on you if you said it to my face. You must be some kind of a fanatic, rabid America hater. I need only point out that there are more people who want to come to America than there are wanting to leave. If your opinion were valid, why should people want to come here?

Trying spitting in my face. I would kick your sorry ass.

Sure, people from poor countries love to come to the US. They have been exploited by the west and can't wait to join the exploiters. I was actually talking about myself. Having lived in countries that are better than the US, i can't fail to notice the US feels like a dump to me.


You must be a fanatic rabid america lover to think america is the best.

So basically you didn't have a point did you? You think the US is the greatest country in the world (because they told you from beginning on) and now you believe it. It cannot be possible that other people think differently? It is a fucking dump. A third world country mixed with a first world country. I only have to bicycle 3 blocks from the center to enter the third world. A third world I have never seen in Holland or Finland for instance.

You may be a rich nation. But you are also a dump.

Any & all: Do any of you America haters have any knowledge of how America rebuilt Germany & Japan after WW2? Is there any other example of a victorius nation doing so much for a hated enemy?

Can't live forever on past glory.

 

[Kunax]

OT:

I reasently read an article about Sillicon vally directores, ceo's and there salary which is quite staggering to say the least.
Top 10 directores earn on avarage including bonus and stock options 923,661,119$/year. the avarage salery for top leaders in silicon vally is avaraged out at 3.420,967,11$/year.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

That's already quite a few chips you have to sell before you start having a profit.

 

[geodesic]

America does not run those so called sweat shops, the like of which never existed in America

Remind me what the American Civil War was about then? (At least in part)

 

[Chatha]

Trying spitting in my face. I would kick your sorry ass.

Sure, people from poor countries love to come to the US. They have been exploited by the west and can't wait to join the exploiters. I was actually talking about myself. Having lived in countries that are better than the US, i can't fail to notice the US feels like a dump to me.


You must be a fanatic rabid america lover to think america is the best.

So basically you didn't have a point did you? You think the US is the greatest country in the world (because they told you from beginning on) and now you believe it. It cannot be possible that other people think differently? It is a fucking dump. A third world country mixed with a first world country. I only have to bicycle 3 blocks from the center to enter the third world. A third world I have never seen in Holland or Finland for instance.

You may be a rich nation. But you are also a dump.

According to whom? The lord and master of the universe? Don't let me in this argument. Common man The U.S is the greatest country on earth and perharps ever. You know deep down in your heart you are exaggerating, I have been to Europe and its not much to write home about. If you don't mind open free flowing racism, socialism, poverty, pretentious hostility, oppression, bad weather, and isolation from the world, live elsewhere. By the way which other country on earth does not have both third world and first world properties, can you even name one? I went to England a few years ago and its geting Grimmier and Grimmier by the day, it was like living in Hiati sometimes (London). No nation in Western Europe can rival the opulent living standard of U.S-Canada, maybe Australia but who wants to go and live there? Personally I would just like to leave this fucking planet for oppressors and ignorant people like you, I'm leaving this dump the first mothership I see. For now I will die an American, America is more than a country to me, its a beacon of light. America has everything you want any where in the world, so if America is f..d up maybe its' the world that is fucked up.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

According to whom? The lord and master of the universe? Don't let me in this argument. Common man The U.S is the greatest country on earth and perharps ever. You know deep down in your heart you are exaggerating, I have been to Europe and its not much to write home about. If you don't mind open free flowing racism, socialism, poverty, pretentious hostility, oppression, bad weather, and isolation from the world, live elsewhere. By the way which other country on earth does not have both third world and first world properties, can you even name one? I went to England a few years ago and its geting Grimmier and Grimmier by the day, it was like living in Hiati sometimes (London). No nation in Western Europe can rival the opulent living standard of U.S-Canada, maybe Australia but who wants to go and live there? Personally I would just like to leave this fucking planet for oppressors and ignorant people like you, I'm leaving this dump the first mothership I see. For now I will die an American, America is more than a country to me, its a beacon of light. America has everything you want any where in the world, so if America is f..d up maybe its' the world that is fucked up.

According to whom? The lord and master of the universe?

No nation in Western Europe can rival the opulent living standard of U.S-Canada
Finland
sweden
Norway
Denmark
Netherlands
Germany
Switserland
Luxembourgh
Iceland
Ireland
etc.

I'm quite aware you have lots of filthy rich. Shame you also have filthy poor at the same time.

America has actually nothing that I want. Hence I am leaving.

 

[Chatha]

Are you kidding? Scandinavian nations don't have the living standard that the U.S has, except if you like white people and cold weather. The netherlands are partly drowned in water and partly high on drugs. Germany is cool with me, they are hosting the world cup, plus the living standard is actually good. Germany has a good industry that's not primarily based on fishing and farming like the scandinavians and the big cities are actually "big" and rich in culture. However I know of an Architect who moved from Germany to Canada because of the living standard and opportunities.

 

[Chatha]

there is a difference between being home sick and talking from your *@#1 without any proof

 

[spuriousmonkey]

It seems you have nothing to offer but hot air.

In 2001, 1.3 million more Americans slipped below the federal poverty line, set at $18,100 a year for a family of 4. That's 33 million Americans at risk of hunger, including 13 million children. Nearly 8.5 million people, including 2.9 million children live without enough food, let alone medical care. Those people are 11.7% if the population.

In finland 100% of the population has free medical care.

Let's make it personal then - a simple example:
In the US i make $35.000k. Tax free because of special circumstances. I will even give you that advantage. I will give you the taxes for free.

I am now moving to Finland.
I will make 20.400 Euros per year. Tax free too. Not because of special circumstances though. It would be tax free for everybody.
20.400 Euro is $26.214.

I will receive about 400 Euro child benefit per year (actually more, because I have 2 children):
That is $6.268

That's already $32.482

I get rent subsidy. That's convenient for our calculations because the rent is actually exactly the same in finland as it is now in the US.

That's $3800 per year.
Total already $36.282 Finland - compare to $35.000 US.

Now. Actually Health care is for free in Finland. Not so in the US. It's a hidden tax in the US. Despite having insurance I still pay 20% of the costs made. So far this year that has been $3000

Finland $36.282 - US $32.000

Not only that. I also have to pay for the health insurance although the employer pays some:
That is $2500 per year.

Finland $36.282 - US. $29.500

Not to mention of course that I can actually afford to put a child into daycare in finland.


Not to mention that Finland has the best educational system in the world. And it is for free (recent statistics show that finnish students perform best in the world).
Should we calculate how much I have to save each year to put my 2 children through a good college in the US???



A very simple example. Very simple outcome.

With my 35k in the US i am struggling to have a good life. Moreover the sword of damocles is constantly hovering above my head in the US because there is no social protection whatsoever. If something beyond my control would happen to me or my family I am fucked.

let me recapitulate
- I have a higher income in finland (objectively established)
- I have social protection
- free healthcare
- free education
- low crime (extremely low compared to the US)
- Freedom to work anywhere within the EU
- More culture
- More quality of life
- A social climate

Now you can shout your empty propaganda again. Your empty boasts.

The US is nice if you are loaded and are selfish. It's no place for social people. That's for instance what Dragon was referring to. You have no clue what a social society is like and what kind of good feeling it can give you.

 

[Absane]

Spuriousmonkey,

Thank you, sir! Your posts motivate me even further to move to Europe Perhaps somewhere I can smoke weed to help me get over leaving my mother land.

 

[Chatha]

In finland 100% of the population has free medical care.

Same as Cuba, many argue Cuba has the best health care system in the world.

Let's make it personal then - a simple example:
In the US i make $35.000k. Tax free because of special circumstances. I will even give you that advantage. I will give you the taxes for free.

I am now moving to Finland.
I will make 20.400 Euros per year. Tax free too. Not because of special circumstances though. It would be tax free for everybody.
20.400 Euro is $26.214.

I will receive about 400 Euro child benefit per year (actually more, because I have 2 children):
That is $6.268

That's already $32.482

I get rent subsidy. That's convenient for our calculations because the rent is actually exactly the same in finland as it is now in the US.

That's $3800 per year.
Total already $36.282 Finland - compare to $35.000 US.

Now. Actually Health care is for free in Finland. Not so in the US. It's a hidden tax in the US. Despite having insurance I still pay 20% of the costs made. So far this year that has been $3000

My friend has almost 100% free health care also, and on top of that he gets a huge subsidy every month from the social department because he has two kids. It all depends on the plan you have. I personally will prefer good helath care to free healthcare. Finland can accomodate free health care because its population is less than California's and its a socialist state, the united states and Cananda are not that socialist and they have a big population.

Finland $36.282 - US $32.000

Not only that. I also have to pay for the health insurance although the employer pays some:
That is $2500 per year.

Finland $36.282 - US. $29.500

Not to mention of course that I can actually afford to put a child into daycare in finland.

I see, thats good. Everyone likes free stuff. Anyway I am sure there are individuals in Finland who are stuggling and can't afford day care as well. Besides many people I personally know can afford day care for their children here. Just because you can't afford it here doesn't mean everyone else can't Mr . You are generalizing a great deal.

Not to mention that Finland has the best educational system in the world. And it is for free (recent statistics show that finnish students perform best in the world).
Should we calculate how much I have to save each year to put my 2 children through a good college in the US???

Are you mad? If you are an in-state student in America your college fees is loose change, My own friends don't generaly pay more than $800 per term. Unless of cause you think you want to go to Columbia, Darthmouth, or Brown. The problem with America is that most people don't know where they belong and don't cut their coat accordingly. I am sure Europe has a good education system and have good students, however America does as well. In America school is not the emphasis, as soon as you are talented in anything there are many ways available avenues to to practice your trade, thats the modern way of doing things, its called "practicality". America has the best scientists and engineers working for research establishments during and after their respective degree. Europe has yet to prove themself in science and tech, even the Russians, Europe's once proud beacon of hope fell to the U.S in science and tech. America has arguably the best defence, computer, chemical, and entertainment technology in the world. Europe doesn't even come next, maybe Japan. I am not even sure why you are comparing the U.S to Finland in terms of sci-tech, maybe Europe, but finland?...please. How many finish win the nobel-politzer prize again?

A very simple example. Very simple outcome.

With my 35k in the US i am struggling to have a good life. Moreover the sword of damocles is constantly hovering above my head in the US because there is no social protection whatsoever. If something beyond my control would happen to me or my family I am fucked.

let me recapitulate
- I have a higher income in finland (objectively established)
- I have social protection
- free healthcare
- free education
- low crime (extremely low compared to the US)
- Freedom to work anywhere within the EU
- More culture
- More quality of life
- A social climate

Now you can shout your empty propaganda again. Your empty boasts.

The US is nice if you are loaded and are selfish. It's no place for social people. That's for instance what Dragon was referring to. You have no clue what a social society is like and what kind of good feeling it can give you

The U.S offers promises and when those promises are not achieved any individual feels bitter, thats understandable. Living in Europe you know you have no real promises or better engagements so it feels as though life is easier in all Europe and all other countries. You can find all the things you listed in certain parts and states of the U.S. You listed that you have higher income in Finland but what about the people that don't have such opportunity? Do they really feel the same about Europe? Like I insinuated before most judgements are based upon where you are at the moment but all judgements are based on where you think you should be. Personaly people are the same everywhere (fucked up, lazy, whinny, and pretentious).

 

[spuriousmonkey]

Same as Cuba, many argue Cuba has the best health care system in the world.

False logic. Finland is not Cuba.

I will then just reply with another empty statement: Some people argue that the finnish healthcare system is better than the American one.

My friend has almost 100% free health care also, and on top of that he gets a huge subsidy every month from the social department because he has two kids. It all depends on the plan you have. I personally will prefer good helath care to free healthcare.

False logic. You provide no proof that the american healthcare is better than the Finnish one (I know it isn't). Moreover, we tend to prefer that everybody is equal. Statistics show that in the US not everybody can afford a decent healthcare insurance. That's a fact. Not one of you opinions.

Finland can accomodate free health care because its population is less than California's and its a socialist state, the united states and Cananda are not that socialist and they have a big population.

False logic. You provide no evidence that healthcare costs are related to total population size. In fact that is a false notion to start with. Why would a large population not be able to afford healthcare??? There is no logic behind that. Population density would be a better measure. How crowded is a country?

Population density:
canada 3.3/km²
Population 32million
Finland
15/km²
5,255,580

Finland is actually more populated than canada. The population density of the US is actually only 30/km². Twice as much as Finland. One of the least dense populated countries in Europe.

But still. It sucks as a measurement.

What you want is an economic index:
USA - HDI (2003) 0.944 (10th) – high
CANADA- HDI (2003) 0.949 (5th) – high
FINLAND - HDI (2005) 0.941 (13th) – high

All HDI figures are quite comparable. All countries belong to the top performing economic nations. And why would a country with a higher economic index not be able to afford healthcare than one with a lower one. This totally destroys your bogus argument. If there was any logic than the richest nation could afford free healthcare, instead of one that is less rich.

I see, thats good. Everyone likes free stuff. Anyway I am sure there are individuals in Finland who are stuggling and can't afford day care as well. Besides many people I personally know can afford day care for their children here. Just because you can't afford it here doesn't mean everyone else can't Mr . You are generalizing a great deal.

You produce a lie here. If you have a low income daycare is for free. Even with my income it is only 100 Euro per month per child. I see you will do anything to promote your false beliefs.

Are you mad? If you are an in-state student in America your college fees is loose change, My own friends don't generaly pay more than $800 per term. Unless of cause you think you want to go to Columbia, Darthmouth, or Brown. The problem with America is that most people don't know where they belong and don't cut their coat accordingly. I am sure Europe has a good education system and have good students, however America does as well. In America school is not the emphasis, as soon as you are talented in anything there are many ways available avenues to to practice your trade, thats the modern way of doing things, its called "practicality". America has the best scientists and engineers working for research establishments during and after their respective degree. Europe has yet to prove themself in science and tech, even the Russians, Europe's once proud beacon of hope fell to the U.S in science and tech. America has arguably the best defence, computer, chemical, and entertainment technology in the world. Europe doesn't even come next, maybe Japan. I am not even sure why you are comparing the U.S to Finland in terms of sci-tech, maybe Europe, but finland?...please. How many finish win the nobel-politzer prize again?

Europe has to prove themselves in science? You couldn't even shoot a rocket to the moon without the germans. You invited me to the USA because your own scientists were apparently not good enough.

So far you have produced nothing but falsehoods.

The biggest mobile phone producer in the world is Finnish. Nokia. The Finnish economy is dependent on the timber industry and....tata...technology.

Nobel-politzer price? I guess that shows your level of American education. You can't even brag about something without making a mistake. And even in the mistake you make a spelling error.

Ironically the Nobel prize is a Swedish price. Why? Look up your history.

The U.S offers promises and when those promises are not achieved any individual feels bitter, thats understandable. Living in Europe you know you have no real promises or better engagements so it feels as though life is easier in all Europe and all other countries. You can find all the things you listed in certain parts and states of the U.S. You listed that you have higher income in Finland but what about the people that don't have such opportunity? Do they really feel the same about Europe? Like I insinuated before most judgements are based upon where you are at the moment but all judgements are based on where you think you should be. Personaly people are the same everywhere (fucked up, lazy, whinny, and pretentious).

You pretend to know what I was thinking. Hence an empty statement from your part. You cannot know my motives or ideas. The US held no promise. I just came to do my work. I experienced how the US is. Not a shattered promise. Have I complained about my work? No.

People are not the same everywhere. Americans are not like Fins. Fins are not like the Dutch. The Dutch are not the same as the Germans. They all have unique identities because they grow up in unique social settings. What can happen is that individuals are quite similar. Not the average. I happen to be happy living in Finland because my personality is rather close to the average finnish one and far away from the average american or Dutch.

You are a complete alien to me. A mindless drone only capable of spewing its standard propaganda lines on the greatness of the US.

Of course, you have to limit yourself to empty statements and opinions because the truth isn't on your side.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

but finland?...please. How many finish win the nobel-politzer prize again?

At least one Nobel prize if that is what you meant by nobel-politzer.

1945 Artturi Ilmari Virtanen Finland "for his research and inventions in agricultural and nutrition chemistry, especially for his fodder preservation method"

 

[The Devil Inside]

god...please dont lump me with that idiot, not all products of the american public educational system are morons.

haha

 

[Chatha]

If you ask me I think you are a racist of some sort, or crazy. Everybody knows that countries have some things they are excellent in, every country is not for everybody. You came out here stating this and that yet no real proof of your assessments. You don't like America? Who cares, I don't care if you marry two wives, thats your cup of tea man. Just try and keep your opinions to yourself and don't bring forth some assinine crap about a country just because you like or don't like that country. So who cares about Nokia, is that what brings food to my table? You are writting like an illiterate. You have no idea of living standards, economy, and enterprise, or what the flying saucer you are saying. Just because you are a failure in America doen't mean the country America is and just because you are successful in your Finland doesn't mean Finland gives a fuck about you. You are NOT the only human being on earth, get a grip man, are you mad?

 

[spuriousmonkey]

Some real facts.

Daycare for the city of Helsinki:

Day care fees are calculated as a percentage value of family
earnings. The smallest monthly payment is 0 EUR and the
highest 200 EUR, from 1 January, 2002.

http://www.hel2.fi/sosv/lomakkeet/english/

 

[Chatha]

Who the fuck cares about Finland? Again, are you mad?