Could God Be A "Type 4" Being?

B

Brutus1964

We are not alone!
Registered Senior Member
Even atheistic scientists have theorized about types of advanced civilizations that could exist in the Universe. We are a type 0 civilization. The most advanced would be a type 4. They would seem God like to us in comparison. If these beings in fact exist could they be what we consider God? Could they be the ones responsible for placing intelligent life on this planet? Maybe it is their way of reproducing the species. They plant their DNA on millions of planets knowing that some will advance to become type 4 themselves and join the fraternity of the Gods. Could an atheist accept this as a possibility?

For information on type 4 civilizations.

http://author.senescence.info/thoughts/cosmos.html
 
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I suppose it all depends upon the Technology; however, although many of the Saints have persisted in claiming that the source of their Miraculous Powers was external to them -- residing in God -- I think they were only being polite; that, in fact, the Miraculous Powers of the Saints have mostly been intrinsic to them, that is, from inside of them. But, at a certain level, I suppose there could be a technology which could allow for such appearances.

To be honest, there have been instances within Marian Apparitions which looked very Technological. For instance, at Fatima Portugal, in 1917 it was said that Our Lady was arriving in a "Bubble of Light". She would arrive from the East and depart to the same direction.

But we need to wonder how pervasive, or invasive, technology can be. Although the vast majority of Humanity are followers, not leaders, and simply believe what they are told to believe, the Leaders must insist on something of a genuine experience to give them any serious motivation. The Religious Leaders -- The Prophets and Saints -- have gotten this through highly personal Visions and Powerful Dream. Meditations and such. Psychology is the Go Between from Biology to Spirituality. Religion is really part of our Hard Wiring. I can't assert that there could never have been a Technology that could have engineered that, but I wonder whether it seems very unlikely.

Opposed to the Technological Model for God, I wonder whether it would seem easier to suppose that Consciousness, like Gravity, is a force that interpenetrates all Matter. We KNOW that Life tends toward Organizing itself. Life goes from Single Cell Structures into ever greater levels of Organization, both unitary and socially. Every Mystic who has ever had a Mystical Experience claims to have had experiential contact with this Greater Organization of Collective Lifeforce. Technology does not seem to be involved. But I have been looking into getting a new Tech-2000 Beta Wave Generator. They sell for $29.95 and it may be just the thing I've been needing to see God.
 
brutus:does'nt that statement make a complete mockery of your religion, it would mean humans are not special in the eyes of your god and just one of thousands of others, it would make your god just one of thousands of aledged gods too, being a theologian do you really want to believe that.

and in answer to your question, no, they would not be gods, superior but not gods . because to look at something of a higher intelligence as a god is infantile. and no scientist or atheist would cower to any creature(unless of course it had a gun to your head,which is not likely)also I do think that any superior creature would not expect you to prostrate before it, it would not consider it's self as a god, only as a teacher.
humans will advance and we will be more intelligent, in the far off future, if the religious nuts down destroy us first.

are we into the twilght zone again leo.
 
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Audible

My purpose of this thread was to examine ways that an atheist could still believe in a higher power, and could still accept some form of intelligent design whether it is a God or an infinitely advanced being.

I don't know how much you know about Mormon doctrine, but if God is actually a type 4 being it would fit quite well in our beliefs.
 
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I can understand it from the point of superior man Ie. 1 nephi 13: 15, The Nephites were "white and exceedingly fair. or the aryan race. but not for your god being one in thousands.
 
Actually in recent months I heard a different theory. According to that link you posted, a Type 4 is just the top level achieved routinely in science fiction, frequently by humanity - ie free and easy domination of the Universe. By that definition the Federation of Star Trek are Type 4.

In Isaac Asimov's Extraterrestrial Civilizations (Crown, 1980) he discusses a classification of possible alien species which went as high as "Type III", where "Type II" would have the power to dim their own sun, and "Type III" would have the power to do that to a whole cluster of suns (thus sending us a signal we could see and recognise as intelligent).

However, the theory I heard recently basically took as its basis a concept from The Matrix, that eventually civilization would evolve to the point that people could live whatever simulated life they chose. The theory then further went on that, what with the age of the Universe, the infinitude of stars or whatever, they had calculated that the odds were very high that not only had a civilization done this, they had furthermore gone on to simulate entire Universes - and that we ourselves exist in one of these simulacra. If the definition of Type 4 is simply the ability to control large portions of our Universe, then surely the creators of technology-based perfect simulacra Universes would be Type 5.

I'm also surprised at Brutus1964 bringing this up. To answer his basic question as regards myself, however, I would rather not believe in such God-beings and believe that everything in the Universe I see is naturally occurring, than have to accept that our Universe is a created simulation and that it is the creators of that who evolved totally naturally.

Belief in God began because of the natural inclination to see the world as something created. As we explored and examined, we found less and less evidence for supernatural creation, but simply the result of immutable, natural laws. Once you have that paradigm and realise that everything (life, galaxies and stars, the entire Universe) occurs just because of physics, you are left with less for God to do until He just creates the Universe at the Big Bang - but furthermore you are left with the conundrum that since you have scientifically explained nearly everything, you have the question, "If God created the Universe, who created God?" If everything is explicable through natural laws, how can you use non-natural means to make the final step of Creation itself?

And this is why I'm not inclined to accept God-Being theories, since it just defers the point of origin, and you might as well face the ultimate God question straight away.
 
audible said:
brutus:does'nt that statement make a complete mockery of your religion, it would mean humans are not special in the eyes of your god and just one of thousands of others, it would make your god just one of thousands of aledged gods too, being a theologian do you really want to believe that.

and in answer to your question, no, they would not be gods, superior but not gods . because to look at something of a higher intelligence as a god is infantile. and no scientist or atheist would cower to any creature(unless of course it had a gun to your head,which is not likely)also I do think that any superior creature would not expect you to prostrate before it, it would not consider it's self as a god, only as a teacher.
humans will advance and we will be more intelligent, in the far off future, if the religious nuts down destroy us first.
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You carry a lot of anti-authority rebellion into your perceptions of how Religion Works. Perhaps if you would study a few Mystics -- Ramakrishna would be good -- you would lighten up on this requirement you have for bowing, scraping, cowering, etc. The Mystic sees Greatness in God, and Smallness in the Human Condition, but it does not go toward cringing and crawling before God. Man does not need to crawl to be small before God. Humility does not have to run all the way to humiliation. Besides, the successful Mystics have done the Trick with Love. If you are to talk about Religion, than be fair and speak of the Religions that actually work as advertised.

Also, to be fair to the Technology Argument, you seem to be underestimating the potential there, and you don't seem to have a concept of what the Religious/Mystical Vision pertains to. Your idea of God seems to be of a Zeus like figure -- an entity just enough bigger than we are so that he can boss us around. You're notion of God is devoid of Metaphysics. Maybe you should go back and catch a few Twilight Zone episodes.
 
Silas said:
Belief in God began because of the natural inclination to see the world as something created. As we explored and examined, we found less and less evidence for supernatural creation, but simply the result of immutable, natural laws.
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You are speaking as though the first Humans appeared in the Seventeenth Century. Animism and Supernatualism were the origins of Religion and they involved interfacing with the Powers of Nature, Life and Death. You may be surprised to know that the cavemen did not lounge about in their studies, smoking pipes, sipping brandy and contemplating the creation of the Universe. What the Cavemen were doing was translating a feeling of powerlessness into one of potency and control.

Here we can refer to the Miracles of the Saints -- the ability to control every facet in their environment. Now, whether you agree or not whether they actually could control every detail in their environment, it was certainly true that their small village societies thought so. Whether it really happened or not, there is something in Human Psychology which perceives it to be happening. So Religion is not Intellectual, as you describe it, but experiential. But, yes, I grant you that Intellectuals can more or less tighten a noose around their necks and choke off all sensations below the neck and live entirely in their heads. It is such as these who suppose God was made up in order to conform to a Creationist Intellectual Model.
 
Silas said:
Actually in recent months I heard a different theory. According to that link you posted, a Type 4 is just the top level achieved routinely in science fiction, frequently by humanity - ie free and easy domination of the Universe. By that definition the Federation of Star Trek are Type 4.

In Isaac Asimov's Extraterrestrial Civilizations (Crown, 1980) he discusses a classification of possible alien species which went as high as "Type III", where "Type II" would have the power to dim their own sun, and "Type III" would have the power to do that to a whole cluster of suns (thus sending us a signal we could see and recognise as intelligent).

However, the theory I heard recently basically took as its basis a concept from The Matrix, that eventually civilization would evolve to the point that people could live whatever simulated life they chose. The theory then further went on that, what with the age of the Universe, the infinitude of stars or whatever, they had calculated that the odds were very high that not only had a civilization done this, they had furthermore gone on to simulate entire Universes - and that we ourselves exist in one of these simulacra. If the definition of Type 4 is simply the ability to control large portions of our Universe, then surely the creators of technology-based perfect simulacra Universes would be Type 5.

I'm also surprised at Brutus1964 bringing this up. To answer his basic question as regards myself, however, I would rather not believe in such God-beings and believe that everything in the Universe I see is naturally occurring, than have to accept that our Universe is a created simulation and that it is the creators of that who evolved totally naturally.

Belief in God began because of the natural inclination to see the world as something created. As we explored and examined, we found less and less evidence for supernatural creation, but simply the result of immutable, natural laws. Once you have that paradigm and realise that everything (life, galaxies and stars, the entire Universe) occurs just because of physics, you are left with less for God to do until He just creates the Universe at the Big Bang - but furthermore you are left with the conundrum that since you have scientifically explained nearly everything, you have the question, "If God created the Universe, who created God?" If everything is explicable through natural laws, how can you use non-natural means to make the final step of Creation itself?

And this is why I'm not inclined to accept God-Being theories, since it just defers the point of origin, and you might as well face the ultimate God question straight away.
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Actually, the Federation on Star Trek is an example of a type 2 civilization. The Borg would be a type 3, and the Q continuum would be a type 4.

These types of civilizations are based on actual scientific theory, not just science fiction. Steven Hawking, and Michiu Kaku routinely discuss these possibilities in their books.

I have heard a theory that we are part of a multiverse and big bangs are happening continually. It is very possible that the universe had no beginning and will have no end. If this is the case then the universe would have eventually created a God somewhere on it's own.
 
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Brutus1964 said:
But these types of civilizations are based on actual scientific theory, not just science fiction.
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You know, if you had bothered to think about it for a second, it would have occurred to you that the only difference between Scientific Theory and Science Fiction is ascendency and proximity. The Scientists scam the Universities for employment by conjuring up mathematical models that only they can explain, which sound endlessly important but when examined at the end of the day are rather good for nothing.... I'm sure when they get together in their private parties they all laugh and find it a good joke they've been able to play on the World. But the Sci Fi Writers are there right behind them. They read the Journals and the next day they are out with their very derivative screenplay or new Video Game.
 
The problem with many atheists is they have locked themselves into a closed dogma that they accuse us theists of being in. If you base your entire belief system on "if I can't see it, then I won't believe it" then you close yourself off to a lot of knowledge. I have much more respect for an agnostic than a flat out atheist, because at least the agnostic will entertain the idea that there might be a higher power out there.
 
and if true, how impressed are they gonna be with all the religious rubbish that this class 0 civilisation persists in. Maybe we'll get upgraded by a benevolent grade 4 when we drop the bronze age superstition!
 
Prester John

They would know exactly what we are going through because they would have gone through the same thing we have on their way to becoming type 4.
They would know that men must evolve line upon line to achieve the
higher status. If this is the case they certainly do not leave us to our own devices to reach them. They have given us the tools to help us along the way. They could have given us the Bible and other scriptures to give us a moral foundation to not destroy ourselves before we can reach the next level. Who knows.
 
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or maybe its a test to see if we can rationalise successfully and discard the bible for the violent amoral book it is ;)

Point is if you want to speculate so can i.
 
Brutus1964 said:
The problem with many atheists is they have locked themselves into a closed dogma that they accuse us theists of being in. If you base your entire belief system on "if I can't see it, then I won't believe it" then you close yourself off to a lot of knowledge. I have much more respect for an agnostic than a flat out atheist, because at least the agnostic will entertain the idea that there might be a higher power out there.
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I don't think many athiests would believe we are the only intelligent life in the universe. I'm not being funny but that would appear to be more a thiestic position (gods special people). Speculating that there are intelligences out there with godlike powers is quite fun but ultimatly pointless unless we see evidence for their existence. Its not a case of if i can't see it i won't believe it. Its a requirement for evidence as a basis for belief.
 
Prester John said:
and if true, how impressed are they gonna be with all the religious rubbish that this class 0 civilisation persists in. Maybe we'll get upgraded by a benevolent grade 4 when we drop the bronze age superstition!
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So far only the Bronze Age model has been shown to work for Civilizations. All innovations to that previous model seem only to muck things up. There may be plenty of room for improvement, but introducing destructive elements probably shouldn't be calculated to help much.
 
I have heard a theory that we are part of a multiverse and big bangs are happening continually. It is very possible that the universe had no beginning and will have no end. If this is the case then the universe would have eventually created a God somewhere on it's own.
 
Brutus1964 said:
I have heard a theory that we are part of a multiverse and big bangs are happening continually. It is very possible that the universe had no beginning and will have no end. If this is the case then the universe would have eventually created a God somewhere on it's own.
Click to expand...

This is a variation on the infinite monkeys, typewriters and shakespere argument. One problem with the argument as you have applied it is that (presupposing the multiverse theory to be correct, which it may not be) you can use the argument to justify anything. Omnipotent gods are logically impossible so they can't exist, even given infinite time. Lesser gods, which may be as suggested very powerful/advanced lifeforms may well exist, but i reckon this is bending the definition of gods somewhat.

The big issue with other civilisations is why haven't we seen evidence of them, we make enough noise around our star.
 
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