Countrys that will be changed by climate change

[billvon]

But, distract, displace, prevaricate and jeer however we like, we know what we're doing wrong, and sooner or later, it will bite us in the ass.

Who said anything about distract and displace? We solved the ozone hole problem by banning CFC's. We solved the mass-starvation by making farming more efficient. I have two EV's that are charged by a solar power system, and I know a fair number of people in my area doing the same. That's the opposite of distracting and displacing.

The thing that all those disaster movies miss is that people solve problems. Sure, it may seem like the ozone hole will cause cancer and mutations and there's nothing anything can do about it. The first part of that assumption is right; the second part is wrong.

 

[Seattle]

Who said anything about distract and displace? We solved the ozone hole problem by banning CFC's. We solved the mass-starvation by making farming more efficient. I have two EV's that are charged by a solar power system, and I know a fair number of people in my area doing the same. That's the opposite of distracting and displacing.

The thing that all those disaster movies miss is that people solve problems. Sure, it may seem like the ozone hole will cause cancer and mutations and there's nothing anything can do about it. The first part of that assumption is right; the second part is wrong.

But I'm a prepper and I want to live in a dome with the crowded hoards!

 

[Truck Captain Stumpy]

But I'm a prepper and I want to live in a dome with the crowded hoards!

how, now that The Kingdome is gone?
LOL

The thing that all those disaster movies miss is that people solve problems.

true that. it's one reason I dislike them, personally (other than the fact that I don't watch much TV or movies, that is)

I did rather enjoy Range 15 though! Nothin' but cheese and veteran humour. I dislike fiction, but I love a good satire.

 

[Seattle]

how, now that The Kingdome is gone?
LOL


true that. it's one reason I dislike them, personally (other than the fact that I don't watch much TV or movies, that is)

I did rather enjoy Range 15 though! Nothin' but cheese and veteran humour. I dislike fiction, but I love a good satire.

If one wanted a counter argument to "people solve problems" (and I don't) then I would offer up as evidence "Gilligan's Island".

 

[RainbowSingularity]

emotive starter pack ?
insert comment about past conversations...

inflation doesn't produce anything anyway.

stock trading
futures markets
commodity trading
currency trading
Residential & Commercial real-estate , rentals & leases (direct business and public cost to income)

Governments pay for things that they need to do through taxation.

so governments dont borrow money to pay for things they cant afford ?

your corporate speak is a little lacking of the finer points to completely change the facts

which governments in western worlds dont borrow money to pay for things ?

notice im allowing your attempted diversion from "local government" to reply to your inane comment about governments not borrowing money that they dont have to pay for things they cant afford that they dont have the money for which is why they borrow the money
which tax is not paying back

https://data.oecd.org/gga/general-government-debt.htm

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/government-debt-to-gdp

just illustrating the point you are attempting to spread misinformation about basic economics
more so about government debt and how economy currently operate.

i wont respond any further to you regarding economics in this thread

Everyone here does that posts this stuff. I don't actually read fiction.

fyi thats borderline trolling the thread subject

if you want to lash out at something intellectually/morally or ethically then pick an argument that makes sense.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_interest_rate

On an economy-wide basis, the "real interest rate" in an economy is often considered to be the rate of return on a risk-free investment, such as US Treasury notes, minus an index of inflation, such as the rate of change of the CPI or GDP deflator.

Richard Henderson in New York
August 16 2019
https://www.ft.com/content/48619792-bfa9-11e9-89e2-41e555e96722

Please use the sharing tools found via the share button at the top or side of articles. Copying articles to share with others is a breach of FT.com T&Cs and Copyright Policy. Email licensing@ft.com to buy additional rights. Subscribers may share up to 10 or 20 articles per month using the gift article service. More information can be found here.
https://www.ft.com/content/48619792-bfa9-11e9-89e2-41e555e96722

Richard Henderson in New York August 16 2019 Print this page 5 Investors have flocked to US bond funds at the fastest clip in two months as volatile trading and a deteriorating growth outlook nudge investors into safer assets. Fixed-income mutual funds and exchange traded funds added $11.5bn for the week ended Wednesday, the biggest weekly figure since early June and the fifth-largest on record, according to data from EPFR Global. US bond funds now hold $2.8tn, $200bn more than at the start of the year.

so there is enough data to show you are talking complete shite

 

[Seattle]

emotive starter pack ?
insert comment about past conversations...


stock trading
futures markets
commodity trading
currency trading
Residential & Commercial real-estate , rentals & leases (direct business and public cost to income)


so governments dont borrow money to pay for things they cant afford ?

your corporate speak is a little lacking of the finer points to completely change the facts

which governments in western worlds dont borrow money to pay for things ?

notice im allowing your attempted diversion from "local government" to reply to your inane comment about governments not borrowing money that they dont have to pay for things they cant afford that they dont have the money for which is why they borrow the money
which tax is not paying back

https://data.oecd.org/gga/general-government-debt.htm

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/government-debt-to-gdp

just illustrating the point you are attempting to spread misinformation about basic economics
more so about government debt and how economy currently operate.

i wont respond any further to you regarding economics in this thread


fyi thats borderline trolling the thread subject

if you want to lash out at something intellectually/morally or ethically then pick an argument that makes sense.

You are like the dog that is always barking at cars and doesn't know what to do when he finally catches up to a car other than to continue barking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_interest_rate



Richard Henderson in New York
August 16 2019
https://www.ft.com/content/48619792-bfa9-11e9-89e2-41e555e96722


so there is enough data to show you are talking complete shite

Don't you ever get tired of creating your own drama? You were talking about inflation. Inflation doesn't create value. Inflation is very low at the moment. Inflation isn't something that anyone tries to create. The real value of money goes down when inflation goes up.

Everyone knows that the U.S. government is irresponsible and spends more than it takes in however what it takes in is though taxes. Of course it borrows since we have a massive national debt. Everyone knows that and no one disagrees with that Captain Obvious.

Why are you getting all excited about something that wasn't being discussed?

Stocks, in theory, go up when the economy grows, companies grow, sell more, become more productive. Inflation isn't good for that or anything else.

House price gains are more solid in low inflation times.

 

[RainbowSingularity]

Republican conservative pretending to be a liberal democrat by pushing conservative ideologies as pretend middle of the road policy's ...
FAKE !
slowly gathering descent toward a board member to consistently undermine them in front of other board members.
emotional trolling to seek to whip up negative posting responses to personally aligned comments
not all at once
but over time
slowly
trying to turn peoples collective opinion away from that person.
quietly attempting to align with people to create group descent against the individual
attempting to emotionally troll to get reactive posts to show a lack of intellectual stability...

you think i haven't notice ?
lol

TROLL !

 

[Jeeves]

Inflation doesn't create value.

Of course not - it's just one of the factors that make the numbers after $ signs bigger over time.
Nothing creates value: value can be neither created nor destroyed: it's not a thing, nor yet an attribute of a thing - it's an idea. The value of any thing that exists is as much as a sentient being needs/wants/cherishes it.

The real value of money goes down when inflation goes up.

Money has no "real value": it's an imaginary substance that flows upon the vagaries of human-human transactions, so that a loaf of bread containing the very same caloric [actual] value may cost 40 shekels, 4 dollars or 400 bolivars, depending where and when.
One might say that the bread is a guide to the 'real' value of money: how much bread a unit of currency buys. But that, too, would be misleading, since the acquisition of money is disconnected from the utility of money once acquired. If the real value of bread is counted in calories, then so should the value of the medium of exchange be counted in calories. How many calories does an adult human need to expend in order to earn enough money for the equivalent in bread? But then, we would have to count the "real" value of human effort. And that's impossible to do in units of currency, since the per calorie value of productive labour is a small fraction of the value of unproductive administrative tasks, which is a pittance, compared to the caloric output required to inherit fabulous fortunes.

Stocks, in theory, go up when the economy grows, companies grow, sell more, become more productive. Inflation isn't good for that or anything else.

In theory.

 

[Seattle]

Of course not - it's just one of the factors that make the numbers after $ signs bigger over time.
Nothing creates value: value can be neither created nor destroyed: it's not a thing, nor yet an attribute of a thing - it's an idea. The value of any thing that exists is as much as a sentient being needs/wants/cherishes it.

"Value can be neither created nor destroyed"? That's nonsense. We aren't taking about the laws of thermodynamics except in your ridiculous "caloric" value of money approach.

 

[Seattle]

Republican conservative pretending to be a liberal democrat by pushing conservative ideologies as pretend middle of the road policy's ...
FAKE !
slowly gathering descent toward a board member to consistently undermine them in front of other board members.
emotional trolling to seek to whip up negative posting responses to personally aligned comments
not all at once
but over time
slowly
trying to turn peoples collective opinion away from that person.
quietly attempting to align with people to create group descent against the individual
attempting to emotionally troll to get reactive posts to show a lack of intellectual stability...

you think i haven't notice ?
lol

TROLL !

Your response of "Fake" and "Troll" sound more like a Republican response to me (along with the paranoia).

You're wrong about inflation and now you are beating your tired horse idea of implying that I'm a Republican. Neither liberals nor conservatives need to (nor should they) follow the "party line" in every regard.

Many people aren't knowledgeable regarding economics. Many people are overly emotional in their decision making. This leads to mistakes. It's not a matter of being liberal or conservative.

 

[Truck Captain Stumpy]

That's nonsense.

I'm not so sure here.
offered IMHO only:
as someone who still utilises the barter and trade system with locals, his point that "value" is an idea seems to be based on the historical definition before we substituted money as the unit of measure for value - "relative worth, utility, or importance".

Neither liberals nor conservatives need to (nor should they) follow the "party line" in every regard.

"you don't have to follow the party line" is just one catchphrase of the Anarchist party ™ - we're not organised because we're still fighting about who gets to be in charge, but we're the choice for those who need a voice that isn't polarised!

 

[Seattle]

I'm not so sure here.
offered IMHO only:
as someone who still utilises the barter and trade system with locals, his point that "value" is an idea seems to be based on the historical definition before we substituted money as the unit of measure for value - "relative worth, utility, or importance".

Everything is an "idea". What is nonsense is saying that value can neither be created nor destroyed. That's is to say that it's some sort of fixed value like energy.

Start a company. You've created value.

 

[Truck Captain Stumpy]

What is nonsense is saying that value can neither be created nor destroyed. That's is to say that it's some sort of fixed value like energy.

yeah... the idea of value is what can't be destroyed. the assigned value is definitely malleable.

 

[billvon]

Nothing creates value: value can be neither created nor destroyed: it's not a thing, nor yet an attribute of a thing - it's an idea. The value of any thing that exists is as much as a sentient being needs/wants/cherishes it.

Labor creates value.

You can take dirt and seeds and turn them into beer. Most people value beer more than the dirt and seeds used to create it. Why? Because someone put in the labor to convert that dirt and seeds to hops and grain, then to malt, then to wort, then to beer.

Money has no "real value": it's an imaginary substance that flows upon the vagaries of human-human transactions, so that a loaf of bread containing the very same caloric [actual] value may cost 40 shekels, 4 dollars or 400 bolivars, depending where and when.

Commodity money has real value. Fiat money (the sort we are used to) has value because it is redeemable for things of value.

If the real value of bread is counted in calories, then so should the value of the medium of exchange be counted in calories.

Or ounces of gold, which many people still do.

 

[Jeeves]

Labor creates value.

Sometimes. Selectively. And the selection is rarely done by the same person who performs the labour; thus the value of labour itself is assigned arbitrarily.
In any case, labour certainly does not determine the value of a currency.

You can take dirt and seeds and turn them into beer.

Maybe.
If all the dirt is owned by a laird who preserves it for private hunts, you can't grow hops on it. If Monsanto is growing a patented strain of hops in your county, you can't plant your seed anywhere. If the local government has a prohibition against alcohol, you can go to jail or worse; even if it's permitted to make, a common labourer can't afford a license to sell it (i.e. turn it into monetary value).
Yes, these are artificial barriers to labour creating value, but these artificial barriers exist - and are far stronger than the individual - in all societies.

Most people value beer more than the dirt and seeds used to create it. Why? Because someone put in the labor to convert that dirt and seeds to hops and grain, then to malt, then to wort, then to beer.

If someone sewed a Chanel label into an ordinary dress, its value would suddenly increase a hundredfold. Yet the sewing of a label takes considerably less labour than sewing the dress.
OTH, that same dress, after a war, might be worth six eggs, which were produced by the labour of hen who doesn't get paid at all.

Commodity money has real value.

If its utility/desirability is agreed-upon by all parties to potential transactions. Not everyone has a use for a gold (it's bloody useless as a cutting tool and doesn't even taste good!); its 'intrinsic' value lies in the common acceptance of it as a precious metal.

Fiat money (the sort we are used to) has value because it is redeemable for things of value.

If and when it's redeemable, and how much of what it buys is, again, arbitrary.
Oddly enough, that's the only kind of payment offered to the labourers who produce the commodities, by the same employers who set the price on those same commodities.

 

[billvon]

Sometimes. Selectively.

All the time. That's why people labor.

And the selection is rarely done by the same person who performs the labour; thus the value of labour itself is assigned arbitrarily.

It is assigned by the user of that labor - so it's hardly arbitrary.

If Monsanto is growing a patented strain of hops in your county, you can't plant your seed anywhere.

No, that's not true. Not sure where you got such a ridiculous idea.

If the local government has a prohibition against alcohol, you can go to jail or worse; even if it's permitted to make, a common labourer can't afford a license to sell it (i.e. turn it into monetary value).

Correct. You have to obey the law. If your chosen labor is murder, for example, you will generally not profit in the long run, even if you profit in the short term by doing contract killings.

If someone sewed a Chanel label into an ordinary dress, its value would suddenly increase a hundredfold. Yet the sewing of a label takes considerably less labour than sewing the dress.

Until you were caught - then the label would make the dress considerably LESS valuable to you, because it would cause a massive fine or jail sentence for you. There are lots of ways to commit crimes.

If its utility/desirability is agreed-upon by all parties to potential transactions. Not everyone has a use for a gold (it's bloody useless as a cutting tool and doesn't even taste good!); its 'intrinsic' value lies in the common acceptance of it as a precious metal.

And the demand people have for it, which is fairly constant.

If and when it's redeemable, and how much of what it buys is, again, arbitrary.

Nope. You keep using that word - but it does not mean what you think it means. Arbitrary does not mean "out of your control" - it means something that is random or capricious. Here in the US what you can buy is determined by capitalistic valuation. That means if a lot of people want it and there is little of it, the price is high. If there is a lot of it and few people want it, the price is low. Thus there is a very deterministic process by which prices are set. You may not like the result, but "I don't like what the prices are" does not equal "arbitrary."

 

[Quantum Quack]

Speaking of money...
What happens when the insurance industry collapses?

 

[Seattle]

Speaking of money...
What happens when the insurance industry collapses?

People will have to cover their own risk. However, it's not going to collapse nor is the sky going to fall.

 

[Quantum Quack]

People will have to cover their own risk. However, it's not going to collapse nor is the sky going to fall.

silly!
Take California at the moment and ask yourself

• How do the current wildfires effect the insurance industries ability to offer affordable insurance against fire and tempest?
• How does some one manage to get finance to rebuild a house or business when there is no affordable insurance?
• How can on get a mortgage from a bank if the mortgaged asset is un-insurable?

Finally

• How can any one have confidence in an energy system that is being shut down due to fire risk and establish any business certainty?

then repeat for other areas in the world facing similar...

Apparently one of the biggest problems for NEW oil in the Gulf is because Banks will not lend the big bucks needed to develop a field due to the increased risk of investment failure.

 

[Jeeves]

All the time. That's why people labor.

People mostly do not labour in order to create anything. They labour in order to be allowed to live in a society owned and controlled by their employers.

It [value] is assigned by the user of that labor ....

The "user". If you own a hundred slaves, you get to decide what the work of each one is worth. Even if they're wage-slaves.

Not sure where you got such a ridiculous idea.

just a meme going around

Correct. You have to obey the law. If your chosen labor is murder, for example, you will generally not profit in the long run, even if you profit in the short term by doing contract killings.

I could have sworn you'd been talking about beer! I'll stick to instances of work creating a commodity, where the law throws up barriers to the worker's ability to reap value.

Until you were caught - then the label would make the dress considerably LESS valuable to you, because it would cause a massive fine or jail sentence for you. There are lots of ways to commit crimes.

What crime? I was just doing my job at the Chanel salon. I used the same skill and care in making the dress as in attaching the label, yet that last 45 seconds added 100 times the value as the previous week.

And the demand people have for it, which is fairly constant.

People's clothing requirement is fairly constant within the same climate zone. Their desire for particular brands and fashions are changeable. Their need of snob clothes is constantly zero. The "demand" is both artificial and arbitrary.

what you think it means. Arbitrary does not mean "out of your control"

No, that's not what I think it means. For "out of your control", I use the phrase "out of your control" or "imposed by others".

- it means something that is random or capricious.

By arbitrary, I mean capricious and inconsistent; not tied to any constant of physical reality - though not random. Those who have the power to exercise their caprices usually have a purpose and sometimes even a strategy. However, they sometimes miscalculate, overreach, fail to anticipate unintended consequences or get caught up in events not of their own making.

Here in the US what you can buy is determined by capitalistic valuation.

Exactly!