Court backs treatment to allow a 13 year old girl to become a boy...

Bells

Bells

Staff member
A 13-year-old girl who is convinced she is a boy has won a landmark legal decision to begin sex-swap treatment.

Family Court Chief Justice Alastair Nicholson yesterday ruled "Alex" could take hormones to start the process to become a boy.

Alex, a troubled ward of the state who is estranged from her mother and lives with her aunt, will take a form of the contraceptive pill.

The combination of estrogen and progestogen will halt her menstrual flow and the feminisation of her body.

The court also ruled that when Alex is about 16, she can take testosterone to begin the process of masculinisation.

It will have irreversible effects, including body and facial hair growth, muscular development, enlargement of the clitoris, and deepening of her voice.

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Where does one even begin.

I will admit it. I have an issue with a girl of 13 starting such a treatment. I have an issue with any child of that age starting any kind of treatment such as this. She's 13 and has expressed that she wishes she were a boy and that she feels as though she's a boy trapped in the body of a girl.

While I fully understand that gender dysphoria is a tragic illness, I just don't think that children should be allowed or given access to drugs that will permanently affect their body for treatment of such an illness. I keep thinking to myself, what if by the time she reaches 18 she's changed her mind? The effects of the drugs are permanent and what will she do about it? She's 13... a child.. a child who it seems from the article has suffered terribly from the death of her father. Shouldn't this girl be undergoing counselling until she reaches adult age before she is allowed to be given such treatment? I just keep seeing this comment by an Alan Finch who'd had a sex change operation after having suffered from gender dysphoria and then realised he'd made a mistake and is now undergoing treatment to try to reverse the procedure:

"Some of the consequences of having hormones are as irreversible as having surgery.

"Her ovaries are going to be irreversibly impaired. She will have limited chances of having normal childbirth.

"She's going to have a full beard and a hairy chest. If she changes her mind, how is she going to get rid of all that?"
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I have to agree with him on this one. She's too damn young. She's 13... a child.. a minor. She's a ward of the State, she's depressed and talked of suicide and in that they allow her this. The article states that she had been treated as a boy as a young child and that she'd spent the majority of her time with her father until he passed away when she was around 5 or 6 years of age. This girl has suffered from experiences that would bring any adult down. She needs counselling first and then when she's an adult she can make up her mind as to whether she wishes to go ahead with the operation. I just get the feeling that she's young, and kids always change their minds. I have the horrible vision of an evil santa clause, giving the child her current wish but then that wish comes back to haunt her if she changes her mind at a later period. She's just too young.
 
Yes... not sure what to say. That definitely does sound like entirely too early to be making such permanent decisions. Body dimorphic disorder is also a characteristic of teenagers, and maybe the psychologists involved have thought of that, but either way wouldn't it be best to wait and see? Although the doctors involved have probably thought of this as well... Do keep in mind, its not just the court saying its ok, its psychiatric professionals and probably more than just one of them. It doesn’t strike me as the proper thing to do, but maybe they are sure. Certainly the court was probably squeemish as we are about it, but something convinced them.
 
Apparently 6 psychiatrists agreed. However some of the ethicists are finding it a bit dodgy that 6 psychiatrists could agree to something like this, saying that it was as though they were picked because they'd have said yes. Having been watching the news on this issue, many psychiatrists and other medical professionals disagree with the decision.

I agree, it would be best to wait and see. She's just so young to be making such a decision. In 3 years time she's meant to start on the male hormones which will permanently alter her physically. She shouldn't start on those drugs until she's older, when she's really sure. That Finch fellow was saying on the news that body dimorphic disorder may not be a disorder, because he'd been diagnosed with the same condition and as he said, he regretted the decision and is now undergoing treatment to change back to being a male. I have to agree with him, she should not start those drugs until she's older and has undergone further counselling to deal with the other issues that have plagued her since early childhood. God, at 13 kids change their minds all the time. The way I see it, she should take the hormones to prevent her devoloping as a woman until she's an adult, then she should decide what to do. I wonder if she really understands, seeing that she's so young, that the change from the male hormone is irreversable. I'm sure she's been told and she's aware, but does she really understand it. She's just too damn young.
 
I don't understand how she has the money to begin such a program? It baffles me.
 
I've wanted to post on this thread since bells put it up, but honestly I don't know what to say other than to reiterate what's already been said: she's awfully young to be making this sort of decision.

When I was 13 I don't think I even knew what my penis was there for, let alone have a solid enough concept of what gender was supposed to be to feel dysphonic about any of it. . . She's not old enough to temporarily intoxicate herself with alcohol, drive a car, or in most places buy a can of spray paint, but still she's allowed to do this to herself? Kids are finicky, and people change so much from when they're so young to when they become adults. I just can't see how it's prudent to allow a her to make this decision, especially considering that she's already got other mental troubles. . . maybe this is some sort of escapist fantasy or something, you know, she wants to literally be someone else. Ehh, but then figuring that out is certainly more a job for 6 psychiatrists than it is for me.

I’d certainly like to hear from some of these psychiatrists. I’m sure it would violate some sort of medical confidentiality thingy if they were to speak openly about the girl’s mental condition, or the reasoning for saying that this was ok, but it’s still something I wish we were able to hear.
 
Oh, this is really sad. I can't think of any 13 year old having the maturity to make such a life changing decision. I have not heard about this child because I haven’t been watching T.V. so I don’t know the whole story, but I can’t believe that six psychiatrists have agreed to allow this little girl to change her body-permanently. I could understand if she had been born a hermaphrodite and had her male organs removed before she was given a choice, but it doesn’t sound like this is the case. I too would like to hear the viewpoints of the six M.D.s involved. Could they explain to us without a breach in the confidentiality they have with their patient? Who knows. :confused:
 
i don't see what's so ethically wrong about this. she has been a boy for 13 years. it would be damaging, and therefore unethical, to force her to pretend to be a girl any longer. at 13, boys have a very well developed sense of gender identity. imagine having to go through those years (or any years) wearing the body of the other major gender.
 
SwedishFish, that is a very good point. Its possible that she has been sure for a very long time. She certainly convinced 6 psychologists and a court that she was sure.

Also, your avatar of a girl in a teacup consistantly looks like a chikens head to me. I'm not sure why.
 
Can someone please tell me something. Remember back to when you were 13 and ask yourself... how sure were you about anything back then? I'm not saying that she doesn't suffer from body dimorphic disorder. She might and she might not. Finch is an example of how he did not suffer from it, even though a plethora of psychiatrists diagnosed him as being so. Regardless of all this though. Wouldn't it be better for her to wait before she starts taking the male hormones? Until she's 18 and in the meantime she continues on the female hormones, thereby stopping her female development, and continuing her counselling. This poor girl has been plagued by issues, from when she was a small child. I just keep thinking to myself that at 13, she's so young and way too young to be making such a decision, especially judging by her life so far and all that she's suffered.. with her father who cared for her dying... to her having to live with her mother and having her mother move around until she finally married someone... to the girl ending up a ward of the State due to child protection issues. All I wonder is, wouldn't it be better to wait until she's an adult before she permanently alters herself?

As Finch said in an interview in regards to this issue... he suffered through the same fate and after having had the sex change to become a woman, he realised that he was in fact male... that he missed being male... even though ever since he was a child he dressed himself as a girl and was basically a girl through his childhood. That just keeps ringing in my head and I think to myself, what if this happens to this little girl. The way I see it,keep her on the female hormones, retarding her maturation as a woman and wait until she's an adult and can therefore make up her own mind and her own decision in this. 13 is just too young to have decided this.
 
you must have been an idiot teenager then.
at 13 you know if you're a boy or a girl!! you're very aware of that at four or younger.
 
What if she, like this Finch fellow, is an anomally? What then? She changes her mind and then has to live with a hairy chest and enlarged clitoris and all the rest of it for the rest of her life. I'm well aware that at 13, one would know if they were a girl or a boy. What worries me in this case is that what if she's not fully aware or what if she does not fully comprehend the results of what will happen to her once she starts the male hormones. Hence why I am asking if it might not be better that she starts the male hormones when she's older... an adult... until then she takes the hormones that will stop her from developing breasts and stop her period. Wouldn't it be better that she be absolutely sure and aware of the consequences of the male hormones before she starts taking them?
 
alan finch (helen) suffered backlash from people who learned he had been born a boy, especially from his relationships with males. he was pressured by his girlfriend to transform into a man. his regret about the surgery to become a woman stemmed from his inability to ever have sexual pleasure again since the penis and scrutum were removed permanently.

this girl knows more about her own body and identity than you do. her doctors certianly know more than you do. in fact, everyone here apparently knows more than you do since i've never seen a worthwhile post from you ever. they are almost all completely moronic. i haven't said so before to be polite. i don't feel like being polite today. ;)
 
"Can someone please tell me something. Remember back to when you were 13 and ask yourself... how sure were you about anything back then?"

I was pretty damn sure I was a girl.

Is what she's doing now irreversible? I would think that just halting her development as a female isn't going to cause her to become more masculine, but I don't know anything about how hormones work.

If it *is* irreversible, then I don't see why she should be allowed to do this, as a minor. She can't drink, vote, smoke or even fuck in most states - but she can decide to be a man?

And why is taxpayer money being wasted on this little project?

SwedishFish:
"in fact, everyone here apparently knows more than you do since i've never seen a worthwhile post from you ever. they are almost all completely moronic. i haven't said so before to be polite. i don't feel like being polite today."

Oooh, aren't you just so brave and catty! Go on being your sweet self, girl!
 
SwedishFish said:
alan finch (helen) suffered backlash from people who learned he had been born a boy, especially from his relationships with males. he was pressured by his girlfriend to transform into a man. his regret about the surgery to become a woman stemmed from his inability to ever have sexual pleasure again since the penis and scrutum were removed permanently.
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Funny you should say that, since all the psychiatrists who've treated Alan Finch since his having had the operation and becoming Helen have determined that he did not in fact suffer from body dimorphic disorder. In fact, regardless of the fact that he appeared feminine, he was in fact, psychologically masculine. I watched a documentary on this guy last year. What he went through was devastating. Hence why from his experience, he's asking that this girl should wait until she starts the male hormones... until she's an adult.

this girl knows more about her own body and identity than you do. her doctors certianly know more than you do.
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I'm sure she knows more about her body than I do, just as I'm sure you know more about your body than anyone else does. However, what concerns me more in this case is her mind. Is she old enough to comprehend the consequences of taking the male hormones. If she takes the hormones that will stop her from developing as a woman, the harm is not irreversable. Hence why many in this country are saying that maybe it might be best that she waits until she's an adult before she starts taking the male hormones. I have a friend who underwent a sex change last year and even she is horrified at the court's decision.

What is also worrying in this case is that when she reaches 16 and is given free reign to take the male hormones, that there will be an expectation that she does start on them. People who suffer from body dimorphic disorder have to undergo years and years of therapy before they are even allowed to start on any hormonal treatment and after that, even more years of therapy before they are allowed to have the sex change... I watched my friend go through it for the last 7 years. This is not a decision to be taken lightly. And as a 13 year old child, I wonder whether she's fully able to mentally realise and grasp the consequences and the end result.

in fact, everyone here apparently knows more than you do since i've never seen a worthwhile post from you ever. they are almost all completely moronic. i haven't said so before to be polite. i don't feel like being polite today.
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Why fish, how sweet :). Coming from you, a person who once started a thread titled 'ewwwww eww eww' because you found a website with pictures of penises and the medical problems men have suffered in their groin area to be ... well in your own words.. 'ewwwww'.... well lets just say that coming from you, I'll take that as a compliment:).
 
What bothers me is the judge that actually made the decision. I would want a back round review and job history check on the judge and a review on his most recent rulings. That worries me that a person like that was put in a position of power. I wonder about other cases he's ruled on. I think that the girl should've had to wait until she was 18 before any type of decision could be made. That would've been the more reasonable thing to do. On the other hand I think that if this one girl feels so strongly as to take it to court and fight for this than let her make her decision and let her deal with her regrets later if it occurs to her that she should've never gotten it. I am a pretty firm believer of free will and if this 13 year old girl's will wants to be a boy than let her deal with it. Because if later on she regrets it than she can deal with it, and do so what is necessary for her to change back.
 
But the point is that she's NOT been allowed to take drugs OR get an operation... she's merely been allowed to have small doses of hormones... which really is not as bad as you people are making out.
 
Well the younger the better.
People in other countries turn their little boys into girle using drugs and surgery before the age of 5.
Then they are raised to be prostitutes.
Pretty gross if you ask me.

As for her, I don't mind a 13 year-old making such a decision if society can afford it, but not one with serious illness. Untill she is able to control her mind and spirit to be at peace with the nature and the universe, -or something of that sort- she doesn't have the mental capacity to make such important decisions.

The argument about tax payers money being used for nonsense is nothing new. It happens all the time. All that is left for us to do is take as much as we can from the idiots who pay taxes. Because it is obviously not distributed evenly.
 
A 13 year old's brain isn't even fully developed yet, the cerebellum (which is involved in most higher thought) isn't all there really until about age 20 (Give or take a few years). Maybe she should just wait it out and see what the rest of her future brain thinks about becoming a boy!

At her age she's got a lot of growing and self discovery yet to go through, really her sense of identity is in almost constant change! Come on, you can remember how fickle and inconsistent you were as a middle schooler, I'm sure! I really just don’t' think children of this age are qualified to make such large decisions for themselves.
 
her brain being developed is irrelevant. my friend is a gender scholar so i've been the victim of too many of her gender lectures. gender identity is one of the first things a person learns about themself. it is ingrained at a very early age, peaking at about 4. pre-schoolers are intensely interested in their own gender and figuring out what it means to be that gender. they separate it from other genders moreso than at any other time, even reproducing age. so she's been suffering for about 10 years now.

it sounds like you don't really believe gender/sex disagreement. if that's the case, i don't think you'd be convinced that any age is appropriate for a sex change. psychologists agree that she is in fact a boy. you make it sound like it's a choice to change genders along with your sex.
 
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