crazy things on-line

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by sculptor, Jun 15, 2021.

  1. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    8,476
    This by Suzi Marsh---sept 2020

    Given the geological activity in the area, though, it may surprise you to hear that people have long had a presence here. At about the same time that the Colorado River carved the deepest parts of the ravine, humans first arrived in this part of Arizona. Then, more than a million years later, the first Europeans peered over the lip into the crevice below.
     
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  3. mathman Valued Senior Member

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    Humans arrived a million years before Europeans????? Highly unlikely!!!
     
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  5. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Old myth peddled by Creationists that humans and Europeans lived contemporaneously.
     
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  7. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    makes you wonder about on-line authors and editors(or the lack thereof)
     
  8. foghorn Valued Senior Member

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    1,477
    ''Human Science'' and European Science?
     
  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    20,089
    Not so hasty. Whereas the first "humans" may not have settled America, they did migrate into southern Eurasia some 1.7 million years ago.

    The first migrations out of Africa

    Homo ergaster

    https://australian.museum/learn/science/human-evolution/the-first-migrations-out-of-africa/#

    Who is to say they stayed there for a 1.5 million years without migrating further east into Northern America?

    The First Americans
    How do we know the ancestors of "native Americans" parted between 25,00 and 15,000 years ago, when that Clovis (New Mexico) is already way down from any crossing point from Asia to America. How long did it take that internal migration?
    ....more.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-first-americans/


    Perhaps the Asian ancestors parted before the glacial period , which sounds entirely reasonable. Perhaps not a million years but 100,000 years, maybe?

    Note that the first "humans" in America were definitely not from European ancestry, thus that part of post #
    1 was correct.

    One fact remains, Europeans were latecomers and "invaded" the Americas. Any declaration to the contrary is "white hubris".



     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2021
    sculptor likes this.
  10. C C Consular Corps - "the backbone of diplomacy" Valued Senior Member

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    Why Is the Society for American Archaeology Promoting Indigenous Creationism?
    https://quillette.com/2021/06/13/wh...archaeology-promoting-indigenous-creationism/

    It's the social constructivist administrators that consider morality/legality trends to be more important than objective reality. One will just have to get accustomed to the various intellectual scams of the humanities turning the human or social sciences into their puppets, even more so than in the past.

    But in contrast to other cultural beliefs, these thriving offshoots of postmodernism may not necessarily grant Christian myths any greater success at undermining research disciplines. Even though not strictly "white or Euro" in origin, Christianity is typically viewed as an historical accomplice of Western colonialism. So "evangelical" is probably too ideologically incorrect for leftangelical movements.
     
  11. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    8,476
    40 odd years ago
    I got into an argument with an anthro professor about the "clovis first" nonsense.
    Roughly, I said that putting a "first date" on anything related to archaeology was ludicrous.
    One thing led to another and he said "extraordinary claims need extraordinary proofs" to which, I responded: "Unless they are yours"
    ok
    not a very auspicious beginning
    however
    We ended up doing much better, with reasoning and research.
    ok
    that being "said"
    1 million years
    would, most likely put the "humans" as erectus or heidelbergensis
    ok
    I do not think that to be beyond reason
    however
    referring to them as "humans" is a damned sloppy use of the language.
    '''''''''''''''''''''
    I will not dispute the claims of humans in california 130,000 years ago, nor seafaring humans in Crete 140,000 years ago.
    I will not dispute the hypothesis of sea faring erectus, heidelbergensis, and/or nenderthlensis

    If we start by admitting that what we do not know far exceeds what we do know. we have a firm foundation from which to start building knowledge.
     
    Write4U likes this.
  12. mathman Valued Senior Member

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    2,002
    There is no evidence (as far as I know) that there were any "humans" in the western hemisphere before modern man, date is open to question. Out of Africa is estimated around 60,000 to 70,000 years ago, so arrival in North America had to be much later.
     
  13. sculptor Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,476
    Perhaps
    you should reconsider your dates?
     
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,089
    On what info do you base this?

    There seems to be evidence that "hominims" were already moving North from Africa some 2 million years ago.

    The first migrations out of Africa
    Author(s); Beth Blaxland, Fran Dorey . Updated 04/03/20

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    This image is made from multiple photographs and data to construct the best approximation of what earth looks like from outer space. Most of the data came from MODIS on a satellite 700km above the surface. Taken Feb 8 2002. Image: NASA compsite © NASA

    About 2 million years ago, the first of our ancestors moved northwards from their homelands and out of Africa.

    These attributes included:
    https://australian.museum/learn/science/human-evolution/the-first-migrations-out-of-africa/#

    There is only one undeniable fact which separates "humans" from earlier hominim ancestors and that is ONLY "humans" have only 46 chromosomes and ALL other "great apes" have 48 chromosomes.

    Human Chromosome 2 is
    a fusion of two ancestral chromosomes
    Alec MacAndrew

    Introduction

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    ......more

    Conclusion
    http://www.evolutionpages.com/chromosome_2.htm
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2021
  15. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    20,089
  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,089
    My own speculation is that coastal migration was one of the main routes of human expansion. It provided the first perfect way to create a bidirectional mental map from and to base camps.

    It provided greater travelling safety and where there were beaches there was easy going.

    It provided a rich source of foods, a fact which had already been established at the tip of South Africa (

    What is the oldest known human settlement?
    Middle Paleolithic

    The oldest known evidence for anatomically modern humans (as of 2017) are fossils found at Jebel Irhoud, Morocco, dated about 300,000 years old.
    List of first human settlements - Wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › List_of_first_human_s...

    Surprise cave discoveries may double the time people lived in the Americas
    ....more

    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...ve-discovery-mexico-double-peopling-americas#
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2021
  17. mathman Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,002
    You seem to misunderstand my point. There is no evidence of 'humans' other than modern man (sapiens) in the Western hemisphere. Sapiens out of Africa seems to have occurred between 60000 and 70000 years ago, placing an upper limit for humans in the Americas. I am well aware of the fact that homo erectus was all over the Eastern hemisphere, but there is no evidence of this species in the Western.
     
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    20,089
    AFAIK, the ancestors of the American Indians came from the Eastern hemisphere and not from Europe.
     
  19. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    18,960
    ? Did anyone say otherwise?
    Did Mathman say American ancestors originated in Europe? If so, I missed it. Can you point to it?
     
  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    20,089
    Did say anyone was wrong? If so I missed it. I made a simple statement without mention of dates. I'm glad you agree.

    There does seem to be a date gap between 70 thousand years and 1.7 million years
    Can anyone account for that?
     
  21. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    8,476
    .fyi

    'Our scenario suggests that there was an early modern group of humans in Greece by 210,000 years ago,
    ...'
    Early H. sapiens fossils from Israel are known at about 170,000 and 120,000 years old.
    ...
    If these latest analyses are correct, H. sapiens entered Europe over 150,000 years earlier than we thought, ...
    from:
    https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news...een-in-europe-150-000-years-earlier-than.html

    ......................'
    Modern human teeth that are at least 80,000 years old have been found in China. Museum human origins expert Professor Chris Stringer says the discovery is a 'game-changer'.

    Researchers have dated 47 human teeth found in a cave in China to between 80,000 and 120,000 years ago - at least 20,000 years before modern humans were thought to have ...
    When dated, the stalagmite gave a minimum age of 80,000 years for the human teeth buried below, while an analysis of mammal fossils found alongside the teeth yielded an upper limit of around 120,000 years.
    from:
    https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news...asia-far-earlier-than-previously-thought.html

    ...............'
    An early-modern human fossil from a cave in Israel has been dated to around 180,000 years ago,
    ...
    The find breaks the long-established 130,000-year-old limit on modern humans outside of Africa. I think the new dating hints that there could be even older Homo sapiens finds to come from the region of western Asia.'
    ...
    The researchers dated teeth from the jaw and flint tools found with the remains, obtaining an average age for the specimens of about 177,000-194,000 years old.
    from:
    https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news...ica-40-000-years-earlier-than-we-thought.html

    .................................................
    at the risk of redundancy, I reiterate what I said 40 odd years ago
    Roughly, I said that putting a "first date" on anything related to archaeology was ludicrous.

    Who knows what the next shovel will turn up?
    When the "science is settled"--- it stops being science?
     
  22. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    18,960
    That's what I thought, another non sequitur.
     
  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,089
    Yep, just another non sequitur. A term that never applies to any of your posits, which are always completely original.
    I learn so much from you, it makes me warm and fuzzy all over.
     

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