Do we have freewill ? is it biblical ?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by zacariah88, Feb 22, 2023.

?

Do you believe you have freewill

  1. yes

    5 vote(s)
    45.5%
  2. no

    6 vote(s)
    54.5%
  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    I see the concept of "choice" based on the brain's "best guess" as sufficient free will. Fight or flight is a choice, no?
     
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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    I understand the concept of a deeper "plenum" that what we can experience in our gross reality.
    But then we enter the domain of Planck quantum and that still does not identify a motivated agency.

    It is the assumption of an Agency with human attributes such as love, anger, or justice, that are completely unnecessary at that level. That's where we encounter "super-position" . It may be possible that this environment is capable of producing what might be called "conscious moments", but those would be at quantum level and almost certainly do not (cannot) posses Free Will.

    DNA made me what I am. Would you claim that DNA is God's reproductive code or is DNA a result of biochemical evolution?

    Does God have memory? Where is it stored?
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2023
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  5. geordief Valued Senior Member

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    How would you test for it?It is just a matter of opinion ,isn't it?

    Arguments on either side but just arguments.

    No actual repeatable tests as far as I know...but is that relevant in a thread on the philosophy forum?

    Not that philosophical discussions don't have physical consequences but they don't seem cut and dried.
     
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  7. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    None believer in god here

    The Universe operates under rigid Laws of Physics

    It appears to me that thoughts, ideas, and the workings of the mind have no physicality hence not subject to Laws of Physics

    While thoughts, ideas, and the workings of the mind have no physicality I contend THEY are your freewill

    Thoughts, ideas, and the workings of the mind however can and do produce thoughts, ideas, and workings in the mind which require the subject of those ponderings to have a physicality

    At this moment you loose your freewill

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  8. zacariah88 Registered Member

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    82
    This shows the greatest minds of this forum had a jab of " What is freewill" everyone has it's definition and still cannot hold or enter in it's secrets of freewill. God has freewill for he has taught it to his creation. The devil had freewill been an angel and had freewill in heaven. When God said man ate the fruit he is now like us the angels like Gods. But when he said it doesn't mean we have athourity like him or the angels giving rank but we can do things like them. We must be careful to not go that way or elevate are egos like that for we can understand God completely and evil and good too to it's end in God ways and views.

    Still can a machine do the same and be a Gods too. Something I fear possible but still hope no one does it. We can undersatnd what is good and evil but still people don't understand that perfect will of freewill is what Jesus does and he had perfect will of freewill. Humans fail, machines fail, angels fail but God does not if humans do what Jesus does they will suceed.

    It is clear freewill is a huge, huge, and huge political, religious, and philosphical area that you dig in deep you will find the real of yourself and find the human purpose God gave in Eden that secret and will see the meaning God intended all creation being machie,man, or angel in his way.
     
  9. zacariah88 Registered Member

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    82
    Freewill can giva a computer God status but godhood isn't something simple the coding most be powerful. And perhaps worst China and Russia or USA have made an A.I. that intelligent.
     
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    I believe it has been tested with plants, such as the mimosa.


    But the test proved that even a brainless organism can be "conditioned" to choose between defensive action or conservation of energy. You irritate the mimosa sufficient times without harming it, eventually it will cease to respond to a simple touch, just as it does not close when a rain drop falls on it. It is "conditioned not to respond to benign irritants.
    Or a neuronless slime mold that can learn to anticipate" a timed event and then "unlearn it ". One of the great examples of programmable "cellular memory".
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2023
  11. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    How is any of that a matter of "choice" by the plant, or slime mold? Altering a behaviour through such conditioning does not seem much of a choice, does it? It seems just a tweaking of some inputs that the plant/animal then reacts to in the only way it can ... a (gradual or otherwise) shift from one behaviour to another. Where in all of that is "choice"?
     
  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    But you are missing the point that you are assuming the authority to present all you posit as elevated truth, but without a shred of evidence that can serve to confirm your lofty thoughts.
    Are you suggesting that man can create a real God? Now that is an interesting variation on a theme.
    I believe the bible recorded God's failure in creating flawed humans and his unwarranted response to kill all living things on earth except for Moses livestock. Apparently he failed in that effort also as we merely can record that as one of several "extinction events".

    We are currently in a 6th extinction event, also known as the anthropocene epoch.

    Holocene extinction

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    The dodo became extinct during the mid-to-late 17th century due to habitat destruction, overhunting, and predation by introduced mammals.[1] It is an often-cited example of a modern extinction.[2]
    more... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction
    Seems that after some 3000 years, we still haven't learned much. Could it be that God created flawed organisms? Would that be from Free Will????
     
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  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    Isn't all choice a form of altering conditioned behavior, the tweaking of inputs as compared to stored prior memory ? The brain can make wrong guesses based on conditioned behaviors.

    Is threshold behavior ( mechanics) a form of choice or must choice always be a conscious act?
    How about homeostasis, where the subconscious part of the brain maintains biochemical balance in concert with the bacterial symbionts of the organism?
    It is a matter of interpretation, no?

    What are other definitions for choice?
    Merriam-Webster
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2023
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    This may be of interest.

    A carnivorous plant that can count.
     
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  15. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    All dogs have four legs, but not everything with four legs is a dog. And what do you mean by "tweaking of inputs" with regard behaviour? The behaviour is the output, not the input.
    Where is the "guess" in the examples you gave? Is your assertion that plants "guess"?
    No, choice need not always be conscious, and whether threshold behaviour is a "form of choice" depends on how one defines "choice".
    What about it? Is my thermostat turning on and off an example of "choice" given that it maintains a thermoequlibrium within my house?
    Not really. More a matter of definition: what does one mean by "choice", by "freewill" etc. I would suggest that once one has arrived at a definition they try to see what they are allowing to have "choice", "freewill", and whether something as simple as a thermostat could be said to possess such. If so, is it really the definition you want to go with? If it does allow that, is it particularly useful?
    Ah, yes, the self-referencing definition of "choice". All that definition does by using the words "choosing" and "chosen" is show how the noun relates to the verb (present participle) and adjective formed from its root. It is nothing but a matter of liguistic form rather than meaning. At no point does it actually explain what "choice" means without effectively referring to itself. So not a very helpful definition, I hope you can see? "X means the act of opportunity of Xing or the thing Xed."
    So, since it begs the question: without simply using the same root, how are you defining choice? Or to choose?
     
  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Another remarkable pre-conscious behavior
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2023
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  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    I am asserting that the brain makes "best" guesses, based on available information in memory. This from Anil Seth.
     
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    When it reaches a temperature where On and Off are superposed, it sometimes appears that it cannot make up it's mind.
     
  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,970
    Ah, yes practicality. I am merely posing questions. Any statements I make are more probative than definitive.
    see post #193. I believe it draws a very narrow distinction between choice and choose.

    Perhaps it depends on the causal information itself?
     
  20. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,597
    Sure they do. The physical processes that support your thoughts are 100% constrained by the laws of physics. Without physics you could not think.
    They do indeed have physicality - even if it is not immediately obvious what physical changes happen when a person has thought X.
     
  21. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    I don't think you need to believe in God to believe in predestination (or vice versa.) You could just believe, for example, that since physics can predict events from a given starting point, that there's no way to change what you think or do - without thinking that God did it.
     
  22. geordief Valued Senior Member

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    Can physics do that? Does the physical universe not just play dice with itself?
     
  23. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    10,298
    So how does that relate to the experiment and the examples you put forward?
    So what?
    I can write a program that will fluctuate between 0 and 1 on screen, and have the appearance of not making up its mind. But so what? Are you saying that "choice" is just a matter of appearance? If not, are you not anthropomorphising the issue without actually addressing what it is that you mean?
    Well, there's a difference between a noun and a verb, but when the noun is simply along the lines of "the result that comes from performing the verb", it's a rather uninformative definition, with a useless distinction as far as understanding what the words mean beyond their immediate relationship.
    You think outputs of a system might be dependent upon the inputs? Wow. There's a novelty!

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