Does Chaos Theory prove a Mathematically Ordered Universe

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Write4U, Aug 7, 2020.

  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    The Higgs boson?
    We make a lot of stuff that does not naturally appear, but we use mathematics to formulate these mathematically "possible" substances for all kinds of "artificial" chemistry. Plastic is no more than another biological derivative.
    What is the chemistry of plastic?
    plastics.americanchemistry.com › How-Plastics-Are-Made
    Yes we do. Earlier I gave an example of a mathematician with no interest in physics, who developed some theoretical mathematics which decades later proved to be the very mathematics used by some observed natural phenomena. Saved the physicists a lot of headaches working out the functional mathematics.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_universe_hypothesis
     
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  3. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    We DO NOT work out a formula and then go looking how to construct a lump of stuff to fit the formula

    Read carefully, VERY careful
    • we DO NOT work out a formula (first)
    • and then go looking how to construct a lump of stuff (the operative word is construct . We can go LOOKING, but we don't go MAKING)
    • to fit the formula
    So a mathematician with no interest in physics developed (invented) some mathematics ie didn't find laying around on pavement? in a cupboard? at bottom of ocean?

    Developed - NOT .... observe formula laying around and think "That could be useful"

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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Mathematics is not a physical thing, it is an inherent potential of the spacetime fabric. It orders itself! The universe doesn't know this, it doesn't need to know. It already had self-ordering the mathematics down since the chaotic beginning.

    It's the Universe that self-orders in a logical (mathematical) fashion because that is logically the most efficient way of distributing universal energy potentials. This behavior appears to be intelligent at times (hence the gods), but it only looks like it is intelligent and can only behave in accordance to mathematical permissions and restrictions.
    Why? Computers are quasi intelligent. Quasi-Intelligence has nothing to do with biology or living things
    (highlighted mine)

    https://thefutureuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Intelligence_Classification

    Evolution via Natural Selection is an abstract quasi intelligent universal mathematical function, which over the span of some 13.5 B years has given us the magnificent view of the exquisite mathematically distributed quantities and patterns throughout the universe, and the incredible variety of living things around us.

    All based on the mathematical potentials and behaviors of fundamental chemistry and mineralogy and the predictable behaviors of the fundamental forces. (Robert Hazen)

    Mathematical Minerals: A History of Petrophysical Petrography, John H. Doveton

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    First Online: 26 June 2018
    13kDownloads

    Abstract
    [/quote] https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-78999-6_24

    Quorum sensing in bacteria is a quasi intelligent ability for communicating and distributing chemical words (auto-inducers), so that bacteria are abele to act in unison when a certain bacterial density is detected. COUNTING!!!!

    Ask why we rely on mathematics for everything. The obvious answer is mathematics work because it is compatible with the relational values and mathematical functions which drive the evolutionary processes (mechanics) of all things, including the universe itself.
     
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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Nor does a mathematical universe.
    Neither does the Universe. See, the universe does not know mathematics. It IS mathematical in essence. It is the nature of the beast and without us the universe would look exactly the way it does now, except the earth would look a lot healthier due to bad mathematics we are using to change our natural environment when using Universal mathematics to build new stuff and toys.
    The term for chemical evolution is "polymerization", I believe. Progressively complex mathematical linear molecular arrangements, with specific values and potentials.

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    .
    Yes, developed it in his head, a product of pure mathematical logic. Turned out be some natural constant. I posted and linked it earlier.
    No, apparently he was a mathematical doodler, like the unknown guy in Russia who received a 10 million dollar (?) prize for solving an apparently unsolvable mathematical equation. That came in useful...

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    Peter Higgs mathematically predicted the very existence of the Higgs boson which had never been observed. How can one make a prediction of the "emergence" of a "specific quantum value" from the quantum foam, unless one uses the proper mathematically ordered mechanics to "materialize" the predicted boson from it's quantum field.

    A Nobel prize in physics awarded to a mathematician is quite a leap in conceptual disciplines, no?


    Some people just love mathematics, after all it's "the language of the Universe"......

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    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  8. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Never has for me, and think gods come more from trying to explain Universe (not Universe intelligence) ACTIVITY ie gods upstairs blowing wind, throwing down lighting

    It's a LANGUAGE. Any other interpretation is on the persons view

    quasi-

    seemingly apparently but not really

    Problems arise calling something quasi-because it skews thinking towards the subject actually being IT

    See there is your problem - or my denial

    You appear to have concluded (settled) on the Universe as being mathematical construct. I have no such thought

    It's a lot of stuff which follows physics

    He developed something in his head, IN OTHER WORDS, it was DEVELOPED. Not just pick up off the floor

    Observations of reality (physics in operation) noticed a discrepancy in the mathematics being used to describe said reality. To find the particle the LHC was built and particle found

    Note this is where we appear to clash

    I contend The Universe is stuff (reality) and physics runs the stuff. Observations of the physics of the stuff leads to the missing stuff being found

    Your take appears to be mathematics runs the universe

    Only after the physical world was found to be wanting ie observations first THEN mathematics

    Sleep time

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  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Right it's the "activity" by unseen powers that gave rise to the "assumption" of sky beings (gods). This was proven by observation of Chimpanzee behavior during thunder storms.
    No, ability to "do work" is called "potential". Mathematical mechanics are not language, they are inherent potentials. "Values" are language, a number is like a word, it contains "information". Bacteria and insects have chemical language and they do communicate, even without brains.
    Right, mathematical behaviors may seem intelligent, but because there is no "intent", it must be called "quasi- intelligent"
    That's not my problem. That's a subjective limitation of the observer.
    What sets mathematics apart from other languages is that unlike other languages, maths are self-referential giving the appearance of "internalizing" information .
    Internalize, psychology
    1. make (attitudes or behavior) part of one's nature by learning or unconscious assimilation.
    "people learn gender stereotypes and internalize them"
    " slime mold and paramecium learn by internalizing stereotypical environmental information"

    IMO, ability to internalize and learn from experience is quasi intelligent, a form of proto-intelligence which over time evolves into a true self-aware intelligence such as found in higher forms of biological systems.
    If you can claim that stuff follows physics, why can I not claim that physicking (poetic liberty) is an interaction of stuff which follows mathematical imperatives, such as in medicine. (Based on your meter reading of 150, take 10 units of insulin.)
    IMO, the evidence of a mathematically driven Universe is overwhelming. I don't call that cognition "settling for", but the "greatest intellectual achievement" of the human brain.

    He developed the mathematics for another purpose. Turns out that the maths were usable for an unrelated natural function.
    If anything, that proves the mathematical nature of natural behaviors i.e "constants".
    Right, mathematical analysis and correct mathematics, programmed into the LHC, produced the Higgs, for an "instant" before it decayed into simpler "values".
    Note this is where we appear to clash
    Not in the case of the Higgs. It was mathematics that lead to the manifestation of the "missing values".
    Not quite, My take is that the universe is a mathematical object and everything in it is subject to the mathematics of the universe.
    Example: a triangle is a mathematical object and every property of a triangle is a related mathematical "value" .

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    But that is from a human perspective! The physical world and its mathematical properties never changed to get it correct. It evolved from Chaos into its current "organization". It was mathematically correct from the beginning and perhaps even before anything physical existed. Mathematical interaction based on intrinsic "values" and "mathematically self-ordering processes may just be a Cosmic Truth.

    Only after the human observation of the physical world was found wanting (theism)
    , did humans invent the symbolic equivalents to the universal mathematics and thereby was able to mathematically discover the discrepancies and correct the original mathematical errors. The birth of Science. The Universe (physical world) never changed it's behavior, it was always logical and translatable into mathematical "relational values" and "mathematical functions".

    Physical is what it is (to humans), Mathematically is how it works (universally).

    Has anyone ever mentioned that the "scientific method" itself is a discipline based on mathematical rigor, a formalized systematic observation and analysis of chronological dynamic evolutionary interactions using extant relational values and mathematical (algebraic) functions, universal constants..

    It was humans who had to discover and utilize mathematics to "learn" what makes the physical world tick and how it all functions.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,783
    Trying to further explain my perspective on "mathematics"

    Philosophy of Mathematics
    First published Tue Sep 25, 2007; substantive revision Tue Sep 26, 2017

    1. Philosophy of Mathematics, Logic, and the Foundations of Mathematics
    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/philosophy-mathematics/
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,783
    This may further explain my perspective. (Downloadable pdf)

    Space and Time in the Foundations of Mathematics, or some challenges in the interactions with other sciences
    http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.433.3604&rep=rep1&type=pdf
     
  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,783
    picked this up from another thread, but looks like it's applicable to this thread as well.

    Is The Inflationary Universe A Scientific Theory? Not Anymore

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    The quantum fluctuations inherent to space, stretched across the Universe during cosmic inflation,... [+]

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/starts...a-scientific-theory-not-anymore/#7c7e0190b45e

    What this clearly shows is the evolutionary self-ordered regularities from an initial state of Chaos. Any ordering process requires mathematical consistenccy of processing extant relational values via fundamental algebraic mathematical functions.

    This is a really good paper with interesting observations.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
  13. river

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    17,307
    Exactly , the Physical will always be fundamental to any Mathematics understanding Reality .


    Highlighted

    And Understands the difference , these Higher forms of Intelligence , between Shape , Three dimensionally , And Mathematics .

    Understanding that without Shape , A Physical Object , Mathematics would not be possible .
     
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,783
    OTOH, the existence of "shape" (PATTERNS) is proof of the mathematical self-ordering of "relational values" via mathematical laws.
    Our understanding of shapes does not create shapes. They existed long before man was able to add 1 + 1.

    p.s. an Octopus can shape-shift to completely copy a rock or a coral. They understand the concept of shape better than any other organism on earth.....

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    It is suspected that the octopus can somehow perceive shape and color with it's entire body.
    That may seem weird, but what's weirder is the fact that octopuses are colorblind.
    IMO, it's more likely that for the octopus color cognition is a subconscious interoceptive function and the octopus perceives and processes color imitation as a subconscious survival mechanism.......

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    Last edited: Aug 23, 2020
  15. river

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    To your first statement ; Before the highlighted .

    How is a Sphere a pattern ?

    To Your Highlighted ; directly below the above .

    What created Shapes ; Write4U .
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2020
  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    It may well have been the very first emergent pattern in nature, being that it is entirely self-referential and the most efficient of all other patterns.

    The Universe, Stars, Eggs, Cells, all started as spherical patterns.

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patterns_in_nature#/media/File:Mikrofoto.de-volvox-8.jpg

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    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4868417/figure/fig01/
    The self-ordering "guiding equations" of the mathematical Nature of the physical Universe.
     
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Sphere
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    A two-dimensional perspective projection of a sphere
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphere
     
  18. river

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    You have not shown how Mathematics is Physical . Without Any Reference to anything Physical .
     
  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,783
    It is an abstract object just like the Platonic solids. These are all fundamental self-forming patterns to the shapes and structure of the universe and stuff inside it.
    Mathematics is an abstract "essence" of the Universal Potential.
     
  20. river

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    The Perfect Shape . That is your Basis . Of Mathematics in this Universe .
     
  21. river

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    Of Course .

    But Only If It Is based On the Reality Of A Physical Universe .

    It is the Physical , Properties of the Physical , that verifies the Mathematics .
     
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    19,783
    Sure, but does that prove the Universe was able to become manifest without any mathematics?

    Religious people assume that God created the Universe. But why not ask if the Universe created God?

    What's the difference between God and Mathematics?
     
  23. river

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    Highlighted

    No , It wasn't suppose to .

    Any Physical Thing has an Inherent Mathematical Nature . Because it is a Three Dimensional Object . Hence is Measurable .

    But to say That Mathematics Creates the Physical is Frankly Wrong .
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2020

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