Write4U
Valued Senior Member
Perhaps "probability" would be a better defined term than "uncertainty"....?what?? ^^
Entropy is a measure of uncertainty.
Perhaps "probability" would be a better defined term than "uncertainty"....?what?? ^^
Entropy is a measure of uncertainty.
I agree. "Once it has begun, it is that way".Hmm. The ''order'' will never "return", no matter how many times we shuffle a deck of cards, though. So, a ''new state'' would never be in perfect order.
I think the two go hand in hand , in that when thinking of probability (possible outcomes), I think of uncertainty as a component of that. (And entropy measures that, specifically.)Perhaps "probability" would be a better defined term than "uncertainty"....?
Indeed and therefore, logically is mathematical in essence....I think the two go hand in hand , in that when thinking of probability (possible outcomes), I think of uncertainty as a component of that. (And entropy measures that, specifically.)
A state of ''high order'' = low probability; a state of ''low order'' = high probability
But, maybe it's better said that entropy is a quantifier of uncertainty, and probability is the representation of it. What do you think?
Necessity and sufficiency | Wiki | Everipedia
In logic , necessity and sufficiency are implicational relationships between statements . The assertion that one statement is a necessary and sufficient condition of another means that the former statement is true if and only if the latter is true. That is, the two statements must be either simultaneously true or simultaneously false.
Well no, randomness is something you expect to see, in a deck of cards you've shuffled.Except that randomness is arbitrary too.
For all we know, the 52 cards now happen to count out the first 52 digits of pi ... "in perfect order".
The point is: you shuffle the deck and you can also reset your definition of order.Well no, randomness is something you expect to see, in a deck of cards you've shuffled.
Or anywhere else. It means "patternless", more or less, so random means no discernible "long-range" order. It doesn't really relate to "short-range", or short messages . . .
Why not?Hmm. The ''order'' will never "return", no matter how many times we shuffle a deck of cards, though. So, a ''new state'' would never be in perfect order.
Actually, that works only for viscous materials with a high degree of determinism. Randomly shuffling a deck of cards only offers a low probability of returning to the original deck sequence.Why not?
It is possible to reshuffle a deck back into the original order.
No you could not for the purpose cards are intended.There is nothing objective about the human sequential values A,2,3,...K. It's an arbitrary measure of order.
You could just as easily decide that it is more logical to consider order based on weight: how closely they are sorted by heaviest (most ink) to lightest.
Why not?
It is possible to reshuffle a deck back into the original order.
Low but not zero.Actually, that works only for viscous materials with a high degree of determinism. Randomly shuffling a deck of cards only offers a low probability of returning to the original deck sequence.
Yep. I've seen this done.David Bohm demonstrated his "enfolded"and "unfolded" orders, by means of enfolding an ink drop in glycerine and then unfolding (reversing the process) it again exactly into the ink drop it was before.
Yes, a human intention. And only intended by the manufacturer.No you could not for the purpose cards are intended.
Nonetheless, when it comes to entropy, entropy doesn't care about human symbols.A deck of cards is ordered by an arbitrary but standardized set of values as graphically symbolized on the face of the cards. The set itself is highly organized from 2 - K, with A being a dual value of 1 or 13.
Well, entropy isn't studied at a poker table either.Can't come with a scale to the poker table.......
Yes you can.Moreover you cannot randomly unshuffle a deck of cards
But that's still only by convention. You've been taught the numbering system, so thinking of order-in-deck and number-on-card as the same thing is natural.In my opinion, ''order'' when speaking of a deck of cards means *I* know with certainty, where each card is located.
But that's still only by convention. You've been taught the numbering system, so thinking of order-in-deck and number-on-card as the same thing is natural.
It isn't. Uncertainty is something else entirely. (We are doing statistical thermodynamics here rather than quantum mechanics, which is where ideas of "uncertainty" come into physics. )So, if entropy is basically the measurement of the energy dispersal, how is it (also) a measurement of the uncertainty of a system? -Or- Do we assume that energy dispersal automatically leads to uncertainty? We've discussed that it's a measure of the amount of energy unavailable to do work, would that equate to the uncertainty (disorder)? That is what confuses me, I think.
I know. But my entire point is that how we are deciding that the deck of cards is "ordered" is entirely arbitrary and subjective. You've chosen one you like.Okay. But, I'm speaking of the deck being taken out of the original package, straight from the manufacturer - so, that is the order we're working from. (I'm working from)
I suppose.I don't see it as subjective, but think we're not going to agree on that. A deck of cards (in order) coming a manufacturer, isn't something I've chosen. If we're talking about what do I wish to keep track of when shuffling the deck of cards (patterns emerging, for example?) , then yea...that is subjective.
I think there is. An ordered shuffle always produces a pattern, not randomness.(OK, they weren't perfectly random shuffles, but there's no law saying that disorder must be caused by random processes).
That's so wrong on so many levels.... Refresh your mind on the Law of falling bodies.....Consider dropping a sequence of A-10 cards from a 20 yard height in still air. The cards will be disordered by the fall, but the chance that they land heaviest card first and lightest card last is considerably better than random.
OK.I think there is. An ordered shuffle always produces a pattern, not randomness.
It's not wrong.That's so wrong on so many levels....
Refresh your mind on the Law of falling bodies.....
I don't follow that.Every card as the same surface area and air resistance, yet some are more massive than others.