For the alternative theorists:

[paddoboy]

You are already having your general and empty debate in every thread you post in. I'd like some substance, I want to talk about specific things and practical details.

You mean as similar to your own empty claim about rewriting quantum weirdness and such?
You may not like my general stance in support of mainstream, but as of today, no extraordinary findings contradicting mainstream, by any outside of mainstream has ever come about on this forum, and in general, is in near all cases, that situation also exists outside.

 

[paddoboy]

Plus of course this empty meaningless philosophical take you appear laden with with regards to the laws of physics and the Universe and free will.
Question:
Do you ever listen to anyone?

Oh, behave! Ignorance and prejudice is not something you should be proud of. .

You need to heed your own words.

 

[Trippy]

Oh, behave! Ignorance and prejudice is not something you should be proud of. How in the world you managed to acquire such insensibly queer mentality? Both links he gave actually point to the same evidence and, in essence, asking the same questions that mainstream scientists officially do. There are no any lies per se, only false conclusions.

Skepticism is nejther ignorant or prejudiced and in this case Russ was right.

 

[Write4U]

There are many ways homochirality could have happened naturally rather than biologically, but chemistry of the environment, including chirality, can be and it is directed by living things as well, if not more. All we need is a chiral enzyme who is producing replicas of itself and we have autocatalytic chemical reaction. It doesn't matter then if these self-replicating chiral enzymes are floating freely in a sea or are trapped inside a membrane of a living cell. Abiogenesis could have happened before, after, or right along as this separation was going on. Only very slight initial imbalance could produce 100% homochirality, rather quickly. But I also don't see any reason why evolution could not produce bi-chiral organisms or separate but co-existing species of both chirality.

Obviously then by the time ancestors of RNA and DNA started shaping the environment was already largely or completely homochiral.

Indeed, naturally!!!!!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2857173/

Excerpt:

Where Do We Go from Here?

The pathway to life may be seen as a saga of increasing chemical and physical complexity (see, for example, Hazen 2010). The modern field of “systems chemistry” (von Kiedrowski 2005) seeks to understand the chemical roots of biological organization by studying the emergence of system properties that may be different from those showed individually by the components in isolation. The implications of the single chirality of biological molecules may be viewed in this context of complexity. Whether or not we will ever know how this property developed in the living systems represented on Earth today, studies of how single chirality might have emerged will aid us in understanding the much larger question of how life might have, and might again, emerge as a complex system.

As the chemistry is above my knowledge, I accept everything that is written in the article as "verifiably true". But the entire article is a description of how Nature works in the real world and can eventually be demonstrated. Nowhere do any of the experiments invoke an unidentifiable but absolutely necessary intervention by a sentient metaphysical actor.

I was expecting a conclusion which proved Creationism, but alas, everything seems to function by natural means, given the proper environment.

So, personally, I'll take the article as proof that the building materials for life can emerge spontaneously under the proper conditions and no Divine intervention is required to "kickstart" this entire process.

 

[paddoboy]

You don't get it, we are on the same side. You're just more naive. Let's please get back to the topic and stay out of personal remarks or arguments. It's unnecessary, it holds no any significant information. C'mon, substance!! -- If your physical body is completely governed by the laws of physics, can your "free will" make it do anything different than it was already going to do by itself anyway?

Sure I get it!
You agree in the common sense logic that Evolution and Abiogenesis are near fact.
In fact in my opinion, we have no other alternative scientific hypothesis to rival them.
But then you seem to want some definitive answer re the laws of the Universe and free will, which I have answered anyway, and you just seem to not want to accept that answer.
That's OK too. :shrug:

And please do not take as insults your own words when someone throws them back at you.

 

[Trippy]

It's not skepticism if you refuse to even look at it, that's prejudice.

No it isn't. You're muddying the waters by mixing the reaction with the consequemces of the reaction. The reaction to the source is justified skepticism of its veracity.
The consequence of that reaction is the decision not to expose ones self to material of questionable veracity. It's a judgement that every individual makes every day of their lives.

 

[leopold]

You said you wanted to talk about it.

talk about what?
the OMFG creationist site about chirality?
actually i wanted trippys opinion about what was presented.
trust me, i fully understand that a lot that is presented on creationist sites MUST be regarded with scepticism.

Do you want to know the truth?

yes, don't we all?

Then please pick what you believe is the best argument so I can tell you the real truth about it and show you the evidence you are not aware of.

argument about what?
the only real reason i started participating in the thread was because of what i found in "science".
and i still do not consider the matter closed.

 

[Trippy]

actually i wanted trippys opinion about what was presented.

And I've given it to you twice, in varying degrees. You have yet to respond to it and seem intent on peddling the same lie in lieu of reading or addressing what was actually said.

 

[leopold]

Quit lying. I've already explained to you that the re card infraction was issued in error necause I failed to check a box, and was subsequently reversed.

ok.
the reason for my comment is because i got them both in my inbox.
if you reversed it then cool.
i share your concerns in this regard, i honestly do.
on the other hand, any honest debate or argument must consider all of the evidence.
even evidence of questionable sources, as long as it's labeled as such.
i feel what was presented was legit because it included the references.

 

[humbleteleskop]

argument about what?

About whatever it is you are talking about. Is there any point you would like to make or question you would like to pose? If not, then I have a question for you: - if your physical body is completely governed by the laws of physics, can your "free will" make it do anything different than what it was already going to do by itself anyway?

 

[humbleteleskop]

Excerpt:

As the chemistry is above my knowledge, I accept everything that is written in the article as "verifiably true". But the entire article is a description of how Nature works in the real world and can eventually be demonstrated. Nowhere do any of the experiments invoke an unidentifiable but absolutely necessary intervention by a sentient metaphysical actor.

I was expecting a conclusion which proved Creationism, but alas, everything seems to function by natural means, given the proper environment.

I have no idea why would you expect of me to give a link about anything else but hard scientific facts.

So, personally, I'll take the article as proof that the building materials for life can emerge spontaneously under the proper conditions and no Divine intervention is required to "kickstart" this entire process.

Of course, just as I've been saying all along. I never even spoke about any gods or divine intervention, only about meteorites and alien shape-shifting reptilian overlords.

 

[Write4U]

I have no idea why would you expect of me to give a link about anything else but hard scientific facts.

Of course, just as I've been saying all along. I never even spoke about any gods or divine intervention, only about meteorites and alien shape-shifting reptilian overlords.

Sorry for butting in, but the subject and its implications of how the human mind functions fascinates me. Actually my remarks were directed in general and not meant as a direct response to your posits, even as I quoted from your posts.

Actually we do have shape shifting aliens among us. Just another example of the near infinite creative powers of this universe and the remarkable ability of the earth to support a wide variety of life.
http://video.pbs.org/video/1150618835/

 

[humbleteleskop]

Actually we do have shape shifting aliens among us. Just another example of the near infinite creative powers of this universe and the remarkable ability of the earth to support a wide variety of life.
http://video.pbs.org/video/1150618835/

Oh yeah, mamma mia! But we've seen nothing yet.

By the way, I couldn't see that movie in my region, so instead I watched this:

[video=youtube;gl2YIK1afBY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gl2YIK1afBY[/video]

 

[leopold]

You and me are not discussing creationism, I was attempting to discuss it with leopold.

i have no intention of discussing creationism in this thread.

Two of us are discussing free will.

you need to start a thread in philosophy.

 

[dumbest man on earth]

So, personally, I'll take the article as proof that the building materials for life can emerge spontaneously under the proper conditions and no Divine intervention is required to "kickstart" this entire process.

Write4U, I Posted a Link to another article, in my Post #572, on Page 79 of this Thread : http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?141223-For-the-alternative-theorists/page29.

The article related to the "discovery" of Boron in Martian clay, the article can be read at this Link : http://phys.org/news/2013-06-astrobiologists-martian-clay-chemical-implicated.html#inlRlv

I Posted some excerpts from the article, which seemed to coincide, more or less, with what the article that you Posted pointed out.
That there is every possibility that "life" may just be a completely "Natural" inherent property of the Universe.
The article is referenced to the Paper : "Boron Enrichment in Martian Clay", which can be read, in its entirety at the following Link :http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0064624

Write4U, I too, accept that there is absolutely no need to invoke any "Deity" of any kind to "kickstart" this entire process.
I also accept that there is no need to invoke any single, and I repeat single, "Event" to "kickstart" the entire process.

I remain open to the possibility that the reality of the Universe, may also inextricably be the reality of Life.
In other words, you cannot have one without the other, so to speak.
Again, I remain open to the possibility - and I repeat - the possibility!!

BTW, I am not a "theist" in any way, shape or form, nor am I "anti -" anything!
I do however have an acute cognitive allergy to intentional ignorance in any form.

 

[paddoboy]

That there is every possibility that "life" may just be a completely "Natural" inherent property of the Universe.

Great! Life from non life, or Abiogenesis.
Again I agree with dmoe..

 

[Write4U]

Oh yeah, mamma mia! But we've seen nothing yet.

By the way, I couldn't see that movie in my region, so instead I watched this:

[video=youtube;gl2YIK1afBY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gl2YIK1afBY[/video]

Yep, that's the one I linked to above. A distant relative to slugs. Remarkable.

 

[paddoboy]

Great! Life from non life, or Abiogenesis.
Again I agree with dmoe..

And which then further supports my thoughts that manned exploration [as well as robotic] should be undertaken and continued on Mars, and even further afield.
Thoughts have been expressed [NASA or was it Seth Shostak] that we will have evidence of life off Earth within 20 years.
Further, that continued effort should be an International one, and not just NASA and the US.
We need to make this a human challenge and of course we also need to shut up those that love to push those two variables, economics and Politics, as opposition to such endeavours.

If this could happen in my lifetime, I would be happy as a "Pig in shit"

 

[paddoboy]

Yep, that's the one I linked to above. A distant relative to slugs. Remarkable.

I wonder if we'll find similar in the Oceans of Europa?

 

[Aqueous Id]

I remain open to the possibility that the reality of the Universe, may also inextricably be the reality of Life.
In other words, you cannot have one without the other, so to speak.

It's fine to say life descended from the matter and energy that condensed out of the Big Bang, but the reverse can't be true.