free electricity possible?

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Hello Tom,

I wish I had your ability to post pictures. The one you posted is for Supercritical CO2. A phase diagram for Critical CO2 may better help understand workings below 31.2 C.

I say its weird for its a gas that beaves like liquid, it pours rather than rises like other gasses. Also its the only gas known to turn to Ice by heating. It does not go from ice to liquid but ice to gas, then the gas at higher temperature turns to liquid, then at higher temperature goes to gas that cant be compressed into liquid. Then mostly turns back into Dry Ice leaving one side of the boiler coated with Dry Ice -40*C anr the other side hot gas at +100*C. Such as showing in your post Supercritical CO2.

That I post, working at below 30*C it apes the fridge workings. (see how thing work- Fridge, Web)

American NASA and DaS Energy were first to publish on new use for CO2. NASA went into refrigeration ( Web site R744) exploits NASA work. DaS Energy published to the exploitable energy of CO2.

I am trusting that the Universities, Professors, and other Professionals are correct in that they publish.

Peter
 
Peter,

You're not only confusing Billy T with Tom, you're also confusing pressure with temperature. You can't get from gas to solid phase by raising the temperature, only by lowering the temp and/or increasing the pressure. Obviously there's the sublimation zone which gives CO[sub]2[/sub] its use in making stage fog. If you reverse that process, you can get from gas to solid by reducing the temperature.

And the phase diagram Billy T showed has the supercritical fluid marked off in the yellow region, with the sub-critical zones in the other colored regions. "Supercritical" simply refers to the region to the right of the critical temperature and above the critical pressure. "Critical" simply means the particular temp. or pressure at which no phase change occurs (excluding plasma) regardless of moving the operating point up or to the right on the diagram.

So far this doesn't have much to do with free electricity, but the supercritical CO[sub]2[/sub] is substantial in its efficiency gains as a working fluid in power plants. It may provide as much as a 45% improvement over steam, owing to its fluid like properties, as you mentioned, but especially its density, while still remaining compressible/expandable as a gas.

I would imagine that its use in a renewable system, such as a solar collector or geothermal well, would offer substantial gains, and it's completely harmless. Maybe this point could be better developed here to tie in to the "free electricity" scenario.
 
Hello Agueos ID,

My applogies to Billy T and Tom, I suffer senior moments.

CO2 phase graph is pressure at temperature. Example CO2 at temperature of 31.2*C (last point of Critical) will have a pressure of 64 bar. Lower the temperature lower the pressure, raise the temperature increase the pressure. Phase diagrams of CO2 are Web available both for Critical and Supercritical CO2.

An example of the difference in electricity production. Citing Toshiba 350 megawatt Steam turbine/generator, requires a force of 175 bar. Steam needs be at temperature of +550*C to have a pressure of 175 bar. CO2 at
+100*C has a pressure of 7,000 bar. 175 into 7,000 goes 40 times. 100* into 550* goes 5.5 time. Result is 220, 350 megawatt turbine/geneators for the running cost of 1. 350 megawatt Steam driven turbine/generator.

I will find a way of linking a CO2 phase diagram

Peter
 
Hello seagypsie,

I can add to that, build a working model tout it around the country and be mocked for being so stupid to think you can take on Coal power generation.

The progress of evolution in ambient heat power generation can be followed across the years with web search DaS Energy. You will note none is for sale, its OPEN TECHNOLOGY.

Peter
 
Captain Kremmen said:
Hey, Seagypsy.
You're funny.
I like to be amused.
Welcome.
Click to expand...
I wasn't trying to be funny. I really don't know anything about physics or any specific energy sciences, or whatever you may call it. I don't know if Shah's data is accurate or not or what it would mean if it was, nor do I know how to interpret the data that people use to refute his claims. I only know that more often that not, the only reason great discoveries were accepted as real is because whatever invention associated with it were built and they worked. And the people who have been ballsy enough to put their money where their mouth was but failed were able to redirect their thought processes to something else, perhaps something more productive and successful. I am sure all successful inventors have countless failed inventions before they get one that works and makes them famous.
 
DaS Energy said:
Phase diagrams of CO2 are Web available both for Critical and Supercritical CO2.
Click to expand...
There's just one phase diagram for a substance. That's why your diagram is the same as Billy T's. Yours just has log scale for pressure.

An example of the difference in electricity production. Citing Toshiba 350 megawatt Steam turbine/generator, requires a force of 175 bar. Steam needs be at temperature of +550*C to have a pressure of 175 bar. CO2 at
+100*C has a pressure of 7,000 bar. 175 into 7,000 goes 40 times. 100* into 550* goes 5.5 time. Result is 220, 350 megawatt turbine/geneators for the running cost of 1. 350 megawatt Steam driven turbine/generator.
Click to expand...
I don't think that's right. Other sources like this are talking about 40% improvement, not 40x which is 4000%. Check your masses. Or maybe your leaving out the cost of repressurizing the spent CO[sub]2[/sub].

DaS Energy said:
I can add to that, build a working model tout it around the country and be mocked for being so stupid to think you can take on Coal power generation.
Click to expand...
You mean take on the use of steam as the turbine working fluid. You still need coal, or some other energy source, to spin those blades.

Coal power plants could benefit from the 40% efficiency gain, but the cost impact for redesign of the turbines is a question. Impact on life of the turbine blades is another.

The progress of evolution in ambient heat power generation can be followed across the years with web search DaS Energy. You will note none is for sale, its OPEN TECHNOLOGY.
Click to expand...
The properties of materials is open information, but the devices that are employed are usually patented. Anyway if you're advocating open technology, why are you sporting the name of a Turkish energy company?
 
Aqueous Id said:
You have been such a riot elsewhere on this board you could get folks to crack a smile if the topic was the bubonic plague. ;)

On a more somber note, yeah, Shah's outta there.
Click to expand...


Yeah inadvertant comedy seems to be a blessing and a curse. I crack people up when I'm serious and bore people when I think I'm being hilarious. I think I understand why so many comedians are drug addicts and alcoholics. We laugh at them, but they are seriously stressed out over the stuff they talk about.
 
Well I for one have stumbled onto a number of your posts which caught me off guard for both the wit and the sincerity. I do think you have an interesting zany side to your persona that lightens up the room. It's a good antidote for dry and sometimes ragged dialogue.

I see you encountered Shah before. I agree with you 100%, whenever there's widespread agreement on matters of science, most people would just take the hint, suck up a little humility and assume there's more to the story that they haven't explored. Or, with a resolute personality like his, they would actually crack a book or two and try to work some problems.
 
I believe

That everything is meant to be free from an internalized state of giving and needing at the same time to another opposable state of living with identities.
 
Hello Aqueous Id

Thank you for some very interesting questions.

The phase diagram I posted was to help understand that at any given temeprature one could read what pressure the CO2 be at. The reason for this is because the "working"is the force between the cold and hot temperature of the CO2. A turbine generator requires a "working" force of 9 bar per litre per second to produce 720 watts calculated on a 82% efficient turbine.Increase of force or volume per second increases wattage output. The cost of repressurising the CO2 is dependant on how the heat is obtained by ambient sources or burnt fuel.

Yes quite correct the CO2 gas replaces Steam to drive the turbine blades. Steam however is not truly a gas so you find both Steam and Gas turbine. The masses quote are text book and web available from more than one site, they also are the same as used by Universties and Industry.

The energy needed to spin the blades is the force/pressure of the hot CO2. Coal as a heating source is not required even at 100*C. Coal is needed to heat water to 550*C Steam for a piddly output of 175 bar, 1 bar being 14.2 PSI. Ambient heat or non Carbon fuels have no problem providing the heat need. 9 bar working pressure is obtained at -10*C. 1. litre per second at 9 bar produces 720 watts, this may be increased by increasing the volume. Raising the temperature to increase the pressure has same effect.

Fully agree if not allready employing a gas turbine change over costs do cost money. The blade/vane life of the turbine far far outlasts both Steam and Gas turbine because of the low heat need has less wear effect. If going to temperature above 31.2C and using a boiler in place of collector panel and heating above 31.2C then a Hydro turbine must be installed if cooling to liquid takes place prior to going to the turbine.

Thank you, did not know of any Turkish Company with same name DaS Energy Pty Ltd. (DaD and Sons) Could you please provide how to web locate or other.

Did not Patent as then someone wants money, someone has to pay money just to use the technology and moving away from Carbon emissions costs more. There is a lot of vested interest in fossil fuels.

Peter

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee397/DaSEnergy/DAS.png
 
seagypsy said:
I wasn't trying to be funny. I really don't know anything about physics or any specific energy sciences, or whatever you may call it. I don't know if Shah's data is accurate or not or what it would mean if it was, nor do I know how to interpret the data that people use to refute his claims. I only know that more often that not, the only reason great discoveries were accepted as real is because whatever invention associated with it were built and they worked. And the people who have been ballsy enough to put their money where their mouth was but failed were able to redirect their thought processes to something else, perhaps something more productive and successful. I am sure all successful inventors have countless failed inventions before they get one that works and makes them famous.
Click to expand...
Oh, sorry:eek:
Welcome, anyway.
 
Aqueous Id said:
...So far this doesn't have much to do with free electricity, but the supercritical CO[sub]2[/sub] is substantial in its efficiency gains as a working fluid in power plants. It may provide as much as a 45% improvement over steam, owing to its fluid like properties, as you mentioned, but especially its density, while still remaining compressible/expandable as a gas. ...
Click to expand...
China burns a lot of coal yet is concerned about CO2 release. They have built a few super critical steam, coal fired power, plants and gotten 50% improvements in efficiency compared to their conventional coal fired power plants. I have posted links about this in the "BRIC + " thread, I think. I don't have time to find them for you now.
 
Hello spacecadet,
Sorry to say I am dinki dye Australian. However I come from old parents and a australian dialect that not longer is present. This coupled with ten years of development without having any engineering schooling to the right words has caused problems throughout. Mostly the language I use is direct copy of how it is set in engineering, physics and chemical texbooks. I do fullly agree with you that how I lay things out can be difficult to understand. I am on a learning curve on how to communicate with others who unlike myself dont have extensive knowledge of the three physics I work with, nor have have had said to them many times for christ sake shorten it down we havent got all day. If you take each sentance/paragraph as a full statement Then put them into more the correct order to make things propperly flow I trust that it be of more assist in realising a compressor type frige is so easily converted into a ambient heated turbine generator. That is of course if R774 is used as the driver liquid. However the device will work on any refrigerant or steam however your heating needs shall be greater and the wattage output less.

Peter
 
hello das energy
i will go back and try to workout your explanation from the beginning. but its like workingout shakespear. maybe add some grammar conjuctions, adverbs etc to make it more understandable. i believe you if you have a working example i.e. generator or motor that can do work. is your idea similar to the Sterling engine??
 
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