Free Will

[cluelusshusbund]

To me it is an illusion that is created by our brain, through the massive interconnectedness of inputs, outputs, neuro-chemicals, feedbacks etc. But our brain HAS to accept this illusion - as without it we would not be "conscious". And we can not break the illusion (i.e. change the way our brain uses it) as it is hard-wired into us.

I dont thank thers any such thang as uninfluenced-free-will... however my "brane" feels "as if my will is free"... an my ideas about "free-will" lead to me to the concluson that people dont deserve punishemnt... an i dont thank "consciousness" is an entity unto itself... its little mor than a fancy calculator which has evolved to the pont of bein able to ponder such issues as free-will an consciousness.!!!

 

[cluelusshusbund]

You're saying that because stimulus A resulted in response B that was the only possibility. Yet, given two individuals, they might choose to respond completely differently to the stimulus A. Why? The conscious thought process that occurs within their minds (or their brains, if you prefer) led them to different conclusions.

If the 2 people were identical an had identical stimulus they WOUD make an identical "choise"... no.???

That's what you're overlooking. We are self aware. We are not automatons that respond the same way to the same stimulus everytime.

How coud we NOT respond the sam way to the sam stimulus evertime.???

One time, we might decide to respond logically and really think out the situation. Another time, we might respond completely by instinct.

You mean we mite deside to respond logically OR instinctivly for _no_ reason... an if so... how is an un-reasoned decision considered a free-will choise.???

 

[cluelusshusbund]

another good thing about the illusion of Free Will isn't just the assignment of blame, but the handing out of accolades. :bravo:

Hmmm... good pont... not only do i thank no one deserves punishment (because i thank free-will is an illusion)... i also thank no one deserves reward... an at this pont in our evoluton i woud like a world that agreed wit me about punishment... but reward is curently necesary for the betterment of our society.!!!

 

[swivel]

Hmmm... good pont... not only do i thank no one deserves punishment (because i thank free-will is an illusion)... i also thank no one deserves reward... an at this pont in our evoluton i woud like a world that agreed wit me about punishment... but reward is curently necesary for the betterment of our society.!!!

Asserting that nobody is responsible for their actions is adding a dangerous set of stimuli to the environment. Just because we have no Free Will does NOT mean that our actions are pre-ordained. It all depends on what is in our vicinity that we can react to.

You are suggesting that we fill our environment with an anarchistic state of non-blame. I think that your philosophical bedrock is sound, but you are erecting a slaughterhouse on top of it. A much better stimulus for right human action is for us to agree that we ARE responsible for our actions.

Even without Free Will, there are people who will do a bad thing if they can get away with it and refrain if they can not. So let's tell everyone that they can't get away with these things, and modify all our behavior in a good way.

Think on this a bit. Keep in mind that lack of Free Will is not the same as predestination. It is more like a machine that can accept various programs. The program you are suggesting is one for murder and mayhem.

 

[Bishadi]

Hmmm... good pont... not only do i thank no one deserves punishment (because i thank free-will is an illusion)...

if you combine the total universe like the combining of both poles then that will make sense.

i also thank no one deserves reward... an at this pont in our evoluton i woud like a world that agreed wit me about punishment... but reward is curently necesary for the betterment of our society.!!!

we live with a consciousness enabling our identity as a self.

Meaning we are 'alive' upon a body of mass, observing the period in time we operate in.

such that our eyes see this continuim and experience the life, with all the ups and downs during the time and interactions within that point we live in.

Since 'life' is the experience, the body of mass is the vehicle. The mass will return to the soil, the energy the body imposes to existence will still be upon existence even after the mass is in the dirt.

such as i can splash a pond; may seem like the wave is fading to equilibrium over time but in reality that energy is still moving, entangling more mass.

The action 'occurred' and is 'purposed to continue' just by the 'choice' to cause it.

When 2 sets of waves meet up, the 'good' will combine and increase the life of the wave.

the 'bad' would be like the wave trying to jump out of the pond (isolated) becoming a 'loss to the common' (for the purpose of self)

Life: purposed to continue

choices of consciousness:

Good; supports life to continue

bad: loss to the common.

these can be measured against any commmandment, nobel truth.. etc from any religious opinion but these are pure because they can be associated with all of existence (nature).

did i mention and mathematically proven?

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
...not only do i thank no one deserves punishment (because i thank free-will is an illusion)... i also thank no one deserves reward... an at this pont in our evoluton i woud like a world that agreed wit me about punishment... but reward is curently necesary for the betterment of our society.!!!

Asserting that nobody is responsible for their actions is adding a dangerous set of stimuli to the environment. Just because we have no Free Will does NOT mean that our actions are pre-ordained. It all depends on what is in our vicinity that we can react to.

I dont have beleifs that thangs are pre-ordained... an whether its addin a dangrous stimuli to the inviroment or not... dew to a lack of free-will nobody IS responsible for ther actions.!!!

You are suggesting that we fill our environment with an anarchistic state of non-blame. I think that your philosophical bedrock is sound, but you are erecting a slaughterhouse on top of it. A much better stimulus for right human action is for us to agree that we ARE responsible for our actions.

Actualy im suggestin that we woud be beter of if everbody understood that nobody deserves punishment.!!!

Even without Free Will, there are people who will do a bad thing if they can get away with it and refrain if they can not. So let's tell everyone that they can't get away with these things, and modify all our behavior in a good way.

Think on this a bit. Keep in mind that lack of Free Will is not the same as predestination. It is more like a machine that can accept various programs. The program you are suggesting is one for murder and mayhem.

I agree wit restrainin people from brakin the rules (which we agree on as a society)... but understandin that people dont deserve punishment woud lead to mor compassion... which i thank is a good thang.!!!

 

[cluelusshusbund]

if you combine the total universe like the combining of both poles then that will make sense.



we live with a consciousness enabling our identity as a self.

Meaning we are 'alive' upon a body of mass, observing the period in time we operate in.

such that our eyes see this continuim and experience the life, with all the ups and downs during the time and interactions within that point we live in.

Since 'life' is the experience, the body of mass is the vehicle. The mass will return to the soil, the energy the body imposes to existence will still be upon existence even after the mass is in the dirt.

such as i can splash a pond; may seem like the wave is fading to equilibrium over time but in reality that energy is still moving, entangling more mass.

The action 'occurred' and is 'purposed to continue' just by the 'choice' to cause it.

When 2 sets of waves meet up, the 'good' will combine and increase the life of the wave.

the 'bad' would be like the wave trying to jump out of the pond (isolated) becoming a 'loss to the common' (for the purpose of self)

Life: purposed to continue

choices of consciousness:

Good; supports life to continue

bad: loss to the common.

these can be measured against any commmandment, nobel truth.. etc from any religious opinion but these are pure because they can be associated with all of existence (nature).

did i mention and mathematically proven?

So do you thank people deserve punishment for "bad" behavior.???

 

[Bishadi]

So do you thank people deserve punishment for "bad" behavior.???

by observing your life within existence, what punishment is involved other than if you do 'bad'........ you don't live as long (eventually extinct)

Some say 'hell fire' or judgment or all the fun stuff of the faiths, but reality is 'time' is your judge

But then to observe the old stories, the 'people' will be the judges in the end times. as the people will be 'revealed' the truth and be able to comprehend "good and bad' as it applies to reality

Not only does it enable each to know life and live true to existence, but as well will know the deception the beliefs and religions have imposed upon mankind.

Religions will be over and them who choose to be a 'loss to the common' (selfish by intent) will be judged by anyone who comes into contact.

Equality will reign............ clergy; unemployed and scared.

Then when the dust settle; heaven on earth.

What you do in relation to 'Good and bad', is what governs your life........... who cares about a spanking!

Just be responsible

as to lie, is simply a tangent (loss to the common) in all cases........... a waste of time for you and me.

you observing reality from the nut himself

 

[cluelusshusbund]

by observing your life within existence, what punishment is involved other than if you do 'bad'........ you don't live as long (eventually extinct)

People who do lots of "bad" thangs often live longer than those who dont lots of "bad" thangs... an aparently... the extinction of people who do bad thangs hasnt begun yet.!!!

Some say 'hell fire' or judgment or all the fun stuff of the faiths, but reality is 'time' is your judge

But then to observe the old stories, the 'people' will be the judges in the end times. as the people will be 'revealed' the truth and be able to comprehend "good and bad' as it applies to reality

Not only does it enable each to know life and live true to existence, but as well will know the deception the beliefs and religions have imposed upon mankind.

Religions will be over and them who choose to be a 'loss to the common' (selfish by intent) will be judged by anyone who comes into contact.

Equality will reign............ clergy; unemployed and scared.

Then when the dust settle; heaven on earth.

What you do in relation to 'Good and bad', is what governs your life........... who cares about a spanking!

Just be responsible

as to lie, is simply a tangent (loss to the common) in all cases........... a waste of time for you and me.

you observing reality from the nut himself

You'r beleifs about jugment may or may not be true... but bak to the issue... while people are alive here on earf do you thank they deserve punishment/torture for ther "bad" behavor???

 

[Bishadi]

People who do lots of "bad" thangs often live longer than those who dont lots of "bad" thangs...

living to be 100 yrs is not living... when a person could plant trees that live 1000 years, which then nurture 100k birds.... etc etc....

nows that a much better life (supporting life to continue)

an aparently... the extinction of people who do bad thangs hasnt begun yet.!!!

you know of confucius? ever heard the 'do unto others...' ..... wisdom?.... be still alive in much of china as much of his teachings.................. how long ago was he walkin around?

and whom else contributed for the good of the total? many, many folk.. even without a name

but the selfish, the bad........ they live as negatives built within societies (most lock their doors now: a loss to existence just by the act being required from all them folks; because of selfish ill regard).......... sure the 'thiefs' still live. For a little while, that is.

Look at the bigger picture... as breathing is not necessarily living.

Making a child, is contributing a single cell of your life (your whole lineage) to combine and make a new shade (child). That choice is your life, (your whole chain since the beginning of time)... continuing, because of a choice.

You'r beleifs about jugment may or may not be true... but bak to the issue... while people are alive here on earf

it's all staying on earth, unless 'mankind' sends it/you elsewhere....

do you thank they deserve punishment/torture for ther "bad" behavor???

actually... each should square up with whom they damaged. Face it, deal with it directly and the community makes sure of it.

No need of police because if it continues: shoot em! period!

best observing the 'total' than a 'self'.......... all cases!

Absolution is a tough one: but that is what truth enables.

 

[elte]

Freewill using the absolute sense of freeness doesn't exist for humans. One might say that we are bound by reality, which determines the circumstances limiting our freedom. The circumstances include our physical natures, including DNA mentioned by Swivel, our experiences, and our learning and understanding. BTW, our lack of free belief is similar to the lack of freewill.

 

[glaucon]

Just in the hope of getting things back on track:

Freewill using the absolute sense of freeness doesn't exist for humans.
...

Care to extrapolate on this idea of "absolute sense of freeness"?

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Care to extrapolate on this idea of "absolute sense of freeness"?

Its not clear to me what free-will is suposed to be... but Its my guess that "Absolute sinse of freeness" is a feel-good term used by those who dont thank its true an/or dont want it to be true... that our esixtence is determined by our individual dna an inviroment... an the only thang "good" or "bad" about those we see as bein good or bad is the cards they happen to hold... ie... swap the dna an inviroment of a sant an a sinner... then ther rolls in life will switch accordinly.!!!

 

[elte]

Its not clear to me what free-will is suposed to be... but Its my guess that "Absolute sinse of freeness" is a feel-good term used by those who dont thank its true an/or dont want it to be true... that our esixtence is determined by our individual dna an inviroment... an the only thang "good" or "bad" about those we see as bein good or bad is the cards they happen to hold... ie... swap the dna an inviroment of a sant an a sinner... then ther rolls in life will switch accordinly.!!!

I get no particularly good feeling out of that term. It just is what comes to my mind in describing freewill. Basically, to be absolutely free we would need to be omniscient and omnipotent. Otherwise, if I understand the rest of your post, I agree.

 

[elte]

Just in the hope of getting things back on track:



Care to extrapolate on this idea of "absolute sense of freeness"?

Think of the term free software. We know that someone has to cover the production costs somehow. Same is true for free lunch.

But the usual use of freewill, with its religious connotation, involves our being perfectly free to choose right or wrong. I consider that concept an imaginary perspective on human behavior.

 

[glaucon]

Think of the term free software. We know that someone has to cover the production costs somehow. Same is true for free lunch.

Not sure how this analogy applies...

But the usual use of freewill, with its religious connotation, involves our being perfectly free to choose right or wrong.
...

The typical use of the term 'free-will' doesn't have any religious connotations.
For that matter, it also doesn't ordinarily have any ethical connotations either.

Do feel free to provide a working definition (one that you're making use of..).

 

[elte]

Not sure how this analogy applies...



The typical use of the term 'free-will' doesn't have any religious connotations.
For that matter, it also doesn't ordinarily have any ethical connotations either.

It seems that your definition means choice. Then there wouldn't be a word for Biblical freewill, which carries absolute moral responsibility. I do not agree with it, but I am well familiar with it since I was raised in the Catholic Church.

Do feel free to provide a working definition (one that you're making use of..).

Free to choose right or wrong. That is basically the Church's standard definition. I'll be all for getting rid of that meaning.

My definition of freewill takes into account an idealistic situation that does not exist, but nonetheless is useful for contrast with the normal sense of choice (,or the definition of freewill you are familiar with). So, to eliminate confusion, I think freewill should just mean perfect or uninhibited ability to choose from an infinite number of options. On the other hand, real situations involve just choice or will in the normal restricted and human sense.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Basically, to be absolutely free we would need to be omniscient and omnipotent.

How woud omniscience and omnipotence make us absolutely free.???

 

[elte]

Not sure how this analogy applies...

Those are examples of free that aren't really free, but are accepted terms in normal usage. That is in contrast to free in the sense of pure, that is absolute.

 

[glaucon]

It seems that your definition means choice.
...

Indeed; as the standard definition does.
Simply: the power of election.

... Then there wouldn't be a word for Biblical freewill, which carries absolute moral responsibility. I do not agree with it, but I am well familiar with it since I was raised in the Catholic Church.

All irrelevant.
While the concept of free-will does bear upon both ethical and religious issues, the two are not necessarily related.

... On the other hand, real situations involve just choice or will in the normal restricted and human sense.

Exactly.
Thus, the notion of an 'absolute' free-will is void of meaning.