Fundamental or nearly fundamental energy and the origin of Intelligence?

Would Intelligence begin in fundamental or nearly fundamental energy?

  • No

    Votes: 4 66.7%
  • Yes

    Votes: 1 16.7%
  • I would tend to think so at least????

    Votes: 1 16.7%

  • Total voters
    6
Dennis,

I'd like to take a moment to comment on your quote from a "near death experiencer".

Primarily, I am wondering why you think that any of this account should be taken as evidence of special knowledge, or even as a real experience. Why do you think this is not just imaginative fantasy?


Terms like "beyond Infinity" are actually meaningless. You realise that, don't you?

Also, if this person could really "perceive FOREVER", why is this account so mundane? Why is there no new or useful information in it?


How did he know that?


What does that even mean? Does it mean anything?


How does one "experience" something like that, directly? Does this actually mean anything?


Again, how can one directly perceive an infinity of anything?


So we're talking about somebody who perceived "images" here, are we?

How do we know that these "images" weren't all in the brain?

Also, is this person an expert on super computers and fractal equations? Or is he just imagining what other images would "come close"?

Ah, vague appeals to "the ancients".

Which particular ancients are we talking about here? How did they know all this? Where did they get the information?

Whatever "Yugas" are, I'm confident they are very different to the Big Bang, which is a scientific theory, not a mystical vision.


Not quite speechless. Just not communicating anything useful.


Oh wow! Let's all get excited about The Void!

What does it mean to be "less than nothing"?
What does it mean to be "more than everything that is"?
How can something be both of those things at the same time?
How can "chaos" form all possibilities? What is "chaos", in this context?
What is "Universal Intelligence" and how do we know it exists?
What is "Absolute Consciousness" and how do we know it exists?
How can "Absolute Consciousness" be "much more than even Universal Intelligence"? In what sense is it "much more"? What's being measured here? How is it being measured? How does the writer know this?
Is The Void simply empty space, or something else? The author seems confused.

It's a pity the author hasn't actually answered a single one of these questions, isn't it?


That reference to "modern science" is nonsense. The author is making that stuff up.

"Zero point energy" is a thing in science, but it has a specific, scientific definition. It is not something that makes instruments explode when we try to measure it, or whatever. There's no "infinity" involved. And "zero space" is not a term that is used in science.


Why should we care what mystics say?


Different in what way? What physical laws describe this "new" kind of energy?


This is the first mention of a "first Word". What is that, exactly? Whose Word is it? Is this about God, or something?

What does "everything ... is a vibration" mean? In what sense am I - or my table lamp - a vibration? What's vibrating? How do we know? How can we measure the "vibrations"?


So now we start to import what sounds like a Christian belief into this whole story about The Void and so on. Why?

What does God need or want to explore God's Self? Isn't God something that already knows everything?

Then we get the claim that everything is "the Self". Which self? God's self? The author's self? All the same "self"?

In what sense is my table lamp a part of this "Self" the author is speaking about?
In what sense are you and I part of the same "Self"? You don't know me. I don't know you. Why not, if we're both "Self"?

We end with the claim that God is everywhere, in all things. But how do we know that? What test would rule out the possibility that God is in All Things? If there isn't one, then we're very far away from any Science of The Void, or any other kind of science.

What started out as claims about the physical universe has, by this point, descended into ramblings about God and mysticism.

What use is any of this nonsense?

Actually having already read chapter thirteen of Stephen Hawking's Universe before I read Mellen Benedict's near death experience I
was actually kind of shocked at the many similarities between what Mellen Benedict reported being shown about the history of the
universe before the Big Bang...... with the speculations from an Agnostic angle that Dr. Stephen Hawking wrote out in that chapter that
is entitled The Anthropic Principle.

Did Mellen Benedict already read that book before his NDE??????

My impression is that Mellen Benedict's near death experience occurred in the 1982 but..... "Stephen Hawking's Universe "was not published until 1989.
 
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13.72 billion years is roughly equal to infinity when compared to Planck time. It's relative......:)

Of course..... but in chapter thirteen of Stephen Hawking's Universe he goes
into guesses on what might have happened in something like infinite time before the
major Big Bang event of 13.72 or so billion years ago....... and as he describes an Agnostic
or Atheistic version of the Cyclic Model he postulates the existence of an infinite number of unsuccessful universes out there in which there would be no life......
due to eletromagnetism and / or gravity and / or weak or strong nuclear force being at magnitudes that would not
allow for life as we know it to develop.

The obvious alternative would be for Intelligence to begin in either the one truly fundamental energy if..... there is only one......
or in some combination of two fundamental energies if in fact there really are two forms of fundamental energy?

A fundamental energy is NOT like electromagnetism that can be linked with gravity in five dimensions of space and time.

Since we humans either are close to inventing A. I. (Artificial Intelligence) through computer programming, (or we may well already have A. I.)..... we know that something resembling intelligence and reasoning ability can occur in a different form than a brain like our own.
 
From the above link:
This operation, nicknamed "standstill" by the doctors who perform it, required that Pam's body temperature be lowered to 60 degrees, her heartbeat and breathing stopped, her brain waves flattened, and the blood drained from her head. In everyday terms, she was put to death. After removing the aneurysm, she was restored to life.
This is an inaccurate statement.

The patient was not dead, her homeostatic processes were "suspended", but apparently her brain was still sentient. She was never "braindead".

If you listen to this opening statement of Anil Seth, a prominent neuroscientist specializing in research on consciousness. You will hear a personal account of his experience having brain surgery, you will get an idea of what happens during anesthesia and how you enter into an unconscious vegetative state and back to a conscious sentient state.

The point is that your consciousness reality is generated inside the brain and not directly from outside data.
Without consciousness, reality does not exist for the individual as a sentient experience. But you can be unconscious without being braindead. Some people live in an unconscious vegetative state for years. As far as we know these individuals do not experience sentient thoughts.

I am very interested in following the research in ORCH OR and IIT which deal with sentience in the brain at quantum levels. I can't get into that on this thread but check into these new areas of research in the mechanics of consciousness.

But AFAIK, that has nothing to do with fundamental energies which lie well below the complex patterns of physical reality. The same as quarks are far removed from being a living braincell
 
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Could you summarize? :?

It is like five paragraphs........
that is all.....

https://www.near-death.com/experiences/exceptional/mellen-thomas-benedict.html#a05

At this point of my near-death experience, I found myself in a profound stillness, beyond all silence. I could see or perceive FOREVER, beyond Infinity. I was in the Void.



I was in pre creation, before the Big Bang. I had crossed over the beginning of time / the First Word / the First vibration. I was in the Eye of Creation. I felt as if I was touching the Face of God. It was not a religious feeling. Simply, I was at one with Absolute Life and Consciousness. When I say that I could see or perceive forever, I mean that I could experience all of creation generating itself. It was without beginning and without end. That’s a mind-expanding thought, isn’t it? Scientists perceive the Big Bang as a single event that created the Universe. I saw during my life after death experience that the Big Bang is only one of an infinite number of Big Bangs creating Universes endlessly and simultaneously. The only images that even come close in human terms would be those created by super computers using fractal geometry equations.

The ancients knew of this. They said God had periodically created new Universes by breathing out, and recreated other Universes by breathing in. These epochs were called Yugas. Modern science called this the Big Bang. I was in absolute, pure consciousness. I could see or perceive all the Big Bangs or Yugas creating and recreating themselves. Instantly I entered into them all simultaneously. I saw that each and every little piece of creation has the power to create. It is very difficult to try to explain this. I am still speechless about this.

It took me years after I returned from my near-death experience to assimilate any words at all for the Void experience. I can tell you this now: the Void is less than nothing, yet more than everything that is! The Void is absolute zero; chaos forming all possibilities. It is Absolute Consciousness; much more than even Universal Intelligence. The Void is the vacuum or nothingness between all physical manifestations. The SPACE between atoms and their components. Modern science has begun to study this space between everything. They call it Zero point. Whenever they try to measure it, their instruments go off the scale, or to infinity, so to speak. They have no way, as of yet, to measure infinity accurately. There is more of the zero space in your own body and the Universe than anything else!

What mystics call the Void is not a void. It is so full of energy, a different kind of energy that has created everything that we are. Everything since the Big Bang is vibration, from the first Word, which is the first vibration. The biblical "I am" really has a question mark after it. "I am -- What am I?" So creation is God exploring God’s Self through every way imaginable, in an ongoing, infinite exploration through every one of us. I began to see during my near-death experience that everything that is, is the Self, literally, your Self, my Self. Everything is the great Self. That is why God knows even when a leaf falls. That is possible because wherever you are is the center of the universe. Wherever any atom is, that is the center of the universe. There is God in that, and God in the Void.
 
Stephen Hawking's Universe he goes
into guesses on what might have happened in something like infinite time before the
major Big Bang event of 13.72 or so billion years ago....... and as he describes an Agnostic
or Atheistic version of the Cyclic Model he postulates the existence of an infinite number of unsuccessful universes out there in which there would be no life......
So we are not talking about infinite time. We are talking about finite increments of time for each try at a specific universal continuum.

IMO, infinite time has no duration of existence. You cannot measure time itself.
Nothingness is infinitely timeless, until there is measurable change and then there is time!
 
Have you given any thought to out of the body experiences and how the ability of somebody to be conscious......
seemingly outside their bodies..... could be possible?

I've been reading those accounts since 1990 from many different angles and I am convinced that a part of our consciousness does not depend on our brain. Some studies link the out of the body experience to the right temporal lobe. Electrical stimulation of that part of the brain can produce an out of the body experience.
It is doubtful that these experiences are anything except Dreams and Hallucinations. The people that claim such Experiences say they are not located in their Bodies anymore but yet are Seeing the World as if they were still in their Bodies. They are Seeing images as if there was Physical Light being focused on Physical Retinas and processed by Physical Brains. But yet they say they are Outside of their Bodies. So how is this happening? From my point of view this cannot be happening. The Conscious Mind has separated from the Brain. A separated Conscious Mind is not going to be able to See like it did when it was Connected to a Physical Brain. The Visual Experience is a very special kind Seeing that requires a Brain and Physical Eye system with Optics. We need to get used to the reality that being a separated Conscious Mind will be a very different existence than being a Conscious Mind connected to a Brain.
 
From the above link: This is an inaccurate statement.

The patient was not dead, her homeostatic processes were "suspended", but apparently her brain was still sentient. She was never "braindead".

If you listen to this opening statement of Anil Seth, a prominent neuroscientist specializing in research on consciousness. You will hear a personal account of his experience having brain surgery, you will get an idea of what happens during anesthesia and how you enter into an unconscious vegetative state and back to a conscious sentient state.

The point is that your consciousness reality is generated inside the brain and not directly from outside data.
Without consciousness, reality does not exist for the individual as a sentient experience. But you can be unconscious without being braindead. Some people live in an unconscious vegetative state for years. As far as we know these individuals do not experience sentient thoughts.

I am very interested in following the research in ORCH OR and IIT which deal with sentience in the brain at quantum levels. I can't get into that on this thread but check into these new areas of research in the mechanics of consciousness.

But AFAIK, that has nothing to do with fundamental energies which lie well below the complex patterns of physical reality. The same as quarks are far removed from being a living braincell


His lecture was certainly good......
but I really did prefer how Dr. Eben Alexander put all of this together.......
apparently with over four million views on this video I was not the only person who really liked his approach.


Eben Alexander: A Neurosurgeon's Journey through the Afterlife
4,436,819 views
•Aug 28, 2014
 
We need to get used to the reality that being a separated Conscious Mind will be a very different existence than being a Conscious Mind connected to a Brain
That was a nice post and I agree with exception to your very last statement above. It is the brain that generates an abstract conscious mind, a type of hologram. Take away the brain and the mind (YOU) itself ceases to exist.

You posit that it can continue to exist. Can you you identify what generates a conscious mind without a brain?
 
It is doubtful that these experiences are anything except Dreams and Hallucinations. The people that claim such Experiences say they are not located in their Bodies anymore but yet are Seeing the World as if they were still in their Bodies. They are Seeing images as if there was Physical Light being focused on Physical Retinas and processed by Physical Brains. But yet they say they are Outside of their Bodies. So how is this happening? From my point of view this cannot be happening. The Conscious Mind has separated from the Brain. A separated Conscious Mind is not going to be able to See like it did when it was Connected to a Physical Brain. The Visual Experience is a very special kind Seeing that requires a Brain and Physical Eye system with Optics. We need to get used to the reality that being a separated Conscious Mind will be a very different existence than being a Conscious Mind connected to a Brain.



I've been studying these near death experience accounts since 1990 and they made it impossible for me to continue with The Worldwide Church of God that I had been a part of since 1973...
The fact that near death experiences can now be induced within almost a "laboratory" setting seems to be important.

https://www.near-death.com/psychology/triggers/extreme-gravity.html

The Trigger of Extreme Gravity:
Dr. James Winnery's Near-Death Experience Research

james_whinnery.jpg

The scientific method requires a phenomenon to be able to be reproducible under laboratory conditions for it to be declared a "real" phenomenon. In the early days, near-death experiences were thought by some to be just "phantom" visions and nothing more than imagination. But then Dr. James E. Whinnery, a chemistry professor with West Texas A&M, became involved with research involving fighter pilots being subjected to extreme gravitational forces in a giant centrifuge to simulate the extreme conditions that can occur during aerial combat maneuvering. Strangely enough, it turns out that under extreme g-forces, fighter pilots lose consciousness and have a near-death experience. Whinnery wrote a technical report for the National Institute for Discovery Science about the phenomenon and in doing so proved the near-death experience to be a real phenomenon. The following is a summary of his technical report of how NDEs are triggered by severe gravitational forces.
 
but I really did prefer how Dr. Eben Alexander put all of this together.......
apparently with over four million views on this video I was not the only person who really liked his approach.
Yes, but the first thing that is established is that the good Dr is talking about a near death experience and not an afterlife.

The two terms are not compatible. Before death is not the same as After life!
 
That was a nice post and I agree with exception to your very last statement above. It is the brain that generates an abstract conscious mind, a type of hologram. Take away the brain and the mind (YOU) itself ceases to exist.

You posit that it can continue to exist. Can you you identify what generates a conscious mind without a brain?


One of the best examples that I know of this is former ATheist Howard Storm describing what it was like when he found himself in the out of the body state.

https://www.near-death.com/religion/christianity/howard-storm.html

Struggling to say goodbye to my wife, I wrestled with my emotions. Telling her that I loved her very much was as much of a goodbye as I could utter because of my emotional distress. Sort of relaxing and closing my eyes, I waited for the end. This was it, I felt. This was the big nothing, the big blackout, the one you never wake up from, the end of existence. I had absolute certainty that there was nothing beyond this life – because that was how really smart people understood it.



While I was undergoing this stress, prayer or anything like that never occurred to me. I never once thought about it. If I mentioned God's name at all it was only as a profanity. For a time there was a sense of being unconscious or asleep. I'm not sure how long it lasted, but I felt really strange, and I opened my eyes. To my surprise I was standing up next to the bed, and I was looking at my body laying in the bed. My first reaction was, "This is crazy! I can't be standing here looking down at myself. That's not possible."



This wasn't what I expected, this wasn't right. Why was I still alive? I wanted oblivion. Yet I was looking at a thing that was my body, and it just didn't have that much meaning to me. Now knowing what was happening, I became upset. I started yelling and screaming at my wife, and she just sat there like a stone. She didn't look at me, she didn't move – and I kept screaming profanities to get her to pay attention. Being confused, upset, and angry, I tried to get the attention of my room-mate, with the same result. He didn't react. I wanted this to be a dream, and I kept saying to myself, "This has got to be a dream."



But I knew that it wasn't a dream. I became aware that strangely I felt more alert, more aware, more alive than I had ever felt in my entire life. All my senses were extremely acute. Everything felt tingly and alive. The floor was cool and my bare feet felt moist and clammy. This had to be real. I squeezed my fists and was amazed at how much I was feeling in my hands just by making a fist. Then I heard my name. I heard, "Howard, Howard - come here."



Wondering, at first, where it was coming from, I discovered that it was originating in the doorway. There were different voices calling me. I asked who they were, and they said, "We are here to take care of you. We will fix you up. Come with us." (Howard Storm)
 
Yes, but the first thing that is established is that the good Dr is talking about a near death experience and not an afterlife.

The two terms are not compatible. Before death is not the same as After life!

Or... could it be that the beings who are encountered during a near death experience are so much older than us that they are using a technology to revive the actually deceased person to a quality of life that physicians of the year 2021 cannot yet accomplish with our relatively much less advanced medical technology?
 
Take a guess about what I'd like the most to hear about. Or, I can accuse you of not showing intellectual forwardness but having no more than religious sentiment.

Be my guest and think whatever you wish!

If you do what I did and research this topic more you will likely find it quite fascinating...... Oh... this will probably surprise you that this was shown to a Christian.

https://www.near-death.com/experiences/gay/christian-andreason.html#a11

11. What about sexually diverse people?
god_loves_gay_people.jpg
If this world was to ever find out just a small amount of what sexually diverse (gay) people are here to do on this planet, there would never be one single wisecrack or hurtful remark made ever again. Instead there would be great respect! People who speak disrespectful things about people of this orientation ... enact judgment, and do so from a place of unenlightenment, insecurity, ego and socially induced prejudice. Some may use mistranslated scriptures taught to them, not by the Holy Spirit ... but by fear-filled human beings. Many will choose to sustain a Divinely unsupported satanic hate-based rage against these children of God, rather than using Love to bring understanding and healing between both peoples. Christ said, THE GREATEST COMMANDMENT IS THAT WE ARE TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER! When people sling condemnation, judgment and bitterness at others, they are not practicing the great commandment. They are allowing their Souls to fall into darkness.
 
Evolution of what? Remember that this universe evolved from a state of pure energetic chaos, some 13.8 billion years ago. Whatever was before the BB no longer exists, at least to us.

Is 13 billion years not long enough for you? You have seen what 4.5 billion years can do to an average planet. Abiogenesis from pure chemistry to sentient life, remarkable but true...:rolleyes:

p.s. I have a problem unpacking this question.

"Would Intelligence begin in fundamental or nearly fundamental energy?"

That's an ambiguous question. It assumes that intelligence began with energy, which IMO is misleading.
Perhaps a better question might be "Would mathematical functions begin in fundamental energy"? To that question we can safely say "Yes".

But as the question stands, didn't everything begin in fundamental energy, i.e Chaos?


https://www.space.com/9255-big-bang-moment-pure-chaos-study-finds.html#

Excellent questions!!!!!!

One of the only writers who I feel has gotten to the heart and core of this is Chaim Henry Tejman M. D.

http://www.grandunifiedtheory.org.il/fund/fund1.htm
"The prevalent and prevailing consensus points to four fundamental forces —
electromagnetism, gravitation, as well as strong and weak nuclear forces — but I
aver that there is only one force: energetic matter. The energetic matter
creates wave formations are expressed exclusively by the two principle behaviors
(forces) of pushing and pulling." (Dr. Chaim Tejman)


http://www.grandunifiedtheory.org.il/fund/fund3.htm

"The swirling and spinning motion creates circular formations. To finish
constructing the wave, the energetic matter must complete two semi-circular rounds. The figures are executed perpendicular to each other, and their energetic paths are in a state of superposition. The closed formation allows the energetic matter to move along closed energetic paths and maintain its energetic matter. It creates two internal swirls (vortices), which are neither identical nor symmetrical. In other words, the same type of energetic matter that moves along a common path that is shared by both swirls within a particular wave formation. Nevertheless, the swirls do not contain equal amounts of energy even in units with the same amount of space." (Dr. Chaim Tejman)

http://www.grandunifiedtheory.org.il/gender/g1.htm
"Pulling and gravitation, which resemble basic feminine traits, are the dominant properties of the magnetic loop. Consequently, magnetic loops have a capacity for storing energy and act to maintain the structural integrity of the entire wave formation. The electronic/energetic loop consists of expanding properties that disperse energetic matter that “disappears” into space. This is synonymous with masculine characteristics." (Dr. Chaim Tejman)
 
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