George Carlin on religion......

cosmictraveler

Be kind to yourself always.
Valued Senior Member
George Carlin on religion


When it comes to bullshit!, big-time, major league bullshit!, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit! story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit! story. Holy shit!!

But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is fucked up.

Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man.

No woman could or would ever fuck things up like this. So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a shit. Doesn't give a shit, which I admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results.

So rather than be just another mindless religious robot, mindlessly and aimlessly and blindly believing that all of this is in the hands of some spooky incompetent father figure who doesn't give a shit, I decided to look around for something else to worship. Something I could really count on.

And immediately, I thought of the sun. Happened like that. Overnight I became a sun-worshipper. Well, not overnight, you can't see the sun at night. But first thing the next morning, I became a sun-worshipper. Several reasons. First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could mention, I can actually see the sun. I'm big on that. If I can see something, I don't know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know? So everyday I can see the sun, as it gives me everything I need; heat, light, food, flowers in the park, reflections on the lake, an occasional skin cancer, but hey. At least there are no crucifixions, and we're not setting people on fire simply because they don't agree with us.

Sun worship is fairly simple. There's no mystery, no miracles, no pageantry, no one asks for money, there are no songs to learn, and we don't have a special building where we all gather once a week to compare clothing. And the best thing about the sun, it never tells me I'm unworthy. Doesn't tell me I'm a bad person who needs to be saved. Hasn't said an unkind word. Treats me fine. So, I worship the sun. But, I don't pray to the sun. Know why? I wouldn't presume on our friendship. It's not polite.

I've often thought people treat God rather rudely, don't you? Asking trillions and trillions of prayers every day. Asking and pleading and begging for favors. Do this, gimme that, I need a new car, I want a better job. And most of this praying takes place on Sunday His day off. It's not nice. And it's no way to treat a friend.

But people do pray, and they pray for a lot of different things, you know, your sister needs an operation on her crotch, your brother was arrested for defecating in a mall. But most of all, you'd really like to fuck that hot little redhead down at the convenience store. You know, the one with the eyepatch and the clubfoot? Can you pray for that? I think you'd have to. And I say, fine. Pray for anything you want. Pray for anything, but what about the Divine Plan?

Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and fuck up Your Plan?

And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to anyway, why the fuck bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will? It's all very confusing.

So to get around a lot of this, I decided to worship the sun. But, as I said, I don't pray to the sun. You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Two reasons: First of all, I think he's a good actor, okay? To me, that counts. Second, he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't fuck around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that God was having trouble with.

For years I asked God to do something about my noisy neighbor with the barking dog, Joe Pesci straightened that cocksucker out with one visit. It's amazing what you can accomplish with a simple baseball bat.

So I've been praying to Joe for about a year now. And I noticed something. I noticed that all the prayers I used to offer to God, and all the prayers I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answered at about the same 50% rate. Half the time I get what I want, half the time I don't. Same as God, 50-50. Same as the four-leaf clover and the horseshoe, the wishing well and the rabbit's foot, same as the Mojo Man, same as the Voodoo Lady who tells you your fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles, it's all the same: 50-50. So just pick your superstition, sit back, make a wish, and enjoy yourself.

And for those of you who look to The Bible for moral lessons and literary qualities, I might suggest a couple of other stories for you. You might want to look at the Three Little Pigs, that's a good one. Has a nice happy ending, I'm sure you'll like that. Then there's Little Red Riding Hood, although it does have that X-rated part where the Big Bad Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn't care for, by the way. And finally, I've always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I like the best? "All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again." That's because there is no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no God. None, not one, no God, never was. In fact, I'm gonna put it this way. If there is a God, may he strike this audience dead! See? Nothing happened. Nothing happened? Everybody's okay? All right, tell you what, I'll raise the stakes a little bit. If there is a God, may he strike me dead. See? Nothing happened, oh, wait, I've got a little cramp in my leg. And my balls hurt. Plus, I'm blind. I'm blind, oh, now I'm okay again, must have been Joe Pesci, huh? God Bless Joe Pesci. Thank you all very much. Joe Bless You!

(Copyright 1999 by George Carlin. Printed without permission.)
 
I can never believe in anything whose symbol is a man nailed to two pieces of wood.
George Carlin

He's funny, but he blames God for Man's mistakes (what did he think the problem was in the first place?), judges Him for judging us (apparently someone has to judge, and George believes he's the guy), worships only what he can see (I wonder what he will do if he really goes blind) - and then he wonders why God ignored him.
 
I am right, and damn those who require it -
who say I'm supposed to be -
I alone am just, and condemned are those who judge
I'm speaking the truth, and who can call me a liar?
Because apart from me there is no truth,
who dares call me wrong?
I will justify myself, and I reject those who would justify me.
- the religion of Man
 
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Heh. Interesting.

But one should blame man, not the deity in question. Since, if you take this viewpoint, the deity doesn't exist for you. No use blaming something you don't think exists?

--Long Live the Female Messiah.
 
Jenyar said:
He's funny, but he blames God for Man's mistakes (what did he think the problem was in the first place?),

Well, let's work this out. God was here first. God created us knowing what what would happen if he did. Do the math. After all, who is more at fault? Dr. Frankenstein (the creator) or his monster (the flawed creation)? Or do they share in the blame?

judges Him for judging us (apparently someone has to judge, and George believes he's the guy),

I think he's questioning the quality of the judgment, not judgment itself.

worships only what he can see (I wonder what he will do if he really goes blind) - and then he wonders why God ignored him.

Yes, as any straight-thinking person knows, God must be entirely unobservable before he can be truly believed in. Otherwise, you'd have to provide some kind of proof.

Josh

It's just a ride. - Bill Hicks
 
Vienna said:
Well, let's work this out. God was here first. God created us knowing what what would happen if he did. Do the math. After all, who is more at fault? Dr. Frankenstein (the creator) or his monster (the flawed creation)? Or do they share in the blame?
You don't believe in God, neither does George Carlin... does that stop you or any other unbeliever from doing evil? No, so you are able to not do God's will, whether He exists or not.

Maybe God hides himself from those who don't believe so they have no one to blame for their actions but themselves. God knew what would happen and warned us of the consequences. Adam didn't listen, neither do you... but at least Adam felt guilty. He didn't have the luxury to blame God, because He knew God existed.
 
Eesh Jenyar,

J - "Adam didn't listen, neither do you... but at least Adam felt guilty. He didn't have the luxury to blame God, because He knew God existed."

Explain to me so I can understand. If Adam did not know right from wrong, how is it that he did not listen?

Allcare.
 
It's a logical fallacy that not knowing the nature of evil somehow prevents you from knowing that what isn't right is wrong. Adam did not listen because he found one interpretation (call it satan or "nature") of what is "good" more attractive than God's interpretation.

Not knowing what rape is like doesn't prevent you from knowing that it's wrong, does it? When Adam came to know "good and evil" (a Hebrew expression meaning 'to know everything'), it means he came to know what sin is like first hand. He sinned, therefore he knew sin. That created all sorts of problems because man was not designed to live with sin - it creates a rift between God, who provides the knowledge for what is good and right, and man, who has to live by it or die.
 
Jenyar said:
You don't believe in God, neither does George Carlin... does that stop you or any other unbeliever from doing evil? No, so you are able to not do God's will, whether He exists or not.

George Carlin said there is no God. I never said anything of the sort. See that's one of the fun things about talking with Christians. Since, in their minds, no possible god could exist outside of the one they've chosen to believe in, they can conveniently assume all others are, in effect, atheists.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. The moment you lasso God from the heavens and start with the anthropomorphic descriptions about what God can and cannot be according to one restrictive, man-made set of beliefs, you've already jumped the intellectual ship and started rowing away in your own little lifeboat o'speculative fantasy.

By the way, believing in God hasn't exactly helped end "evil" either. In fact, it has created more war, violence, and death. How's that for irony?

Maybe God hides himself from those who don't believe so they have no one to blame for their actions but themselves. God knew what would happen and warned us of the consequences. Adam didn't listen, neither do you... but at least Adam felt guilty. He didn't have the luxury to blame God, because He knew God existed.

Yeah, and "maybe" God is a giant goat who speaks Esperanto and craps french fries. Golly, it must be fun living life based on wild speculations about unknown things. I truly wish I could join the club, but God apparently created me with enough intelligence to know that I have no fucking idea why we're here, who he/she/it is, and why people around the world are killing each other over what happens when we die. Most, if not all, folks don't really know either -- the only difference is I'm willing to admit it.

It seems rather odd that God would purposefully hide from those who need him the most, huh? I suppose it should come as no surprise that God likes to preach to the choir (granted, it is more fun). As far as Adam goes, you know if the Lord regularly walked and talked with me, maybe I'd be more receptive to his message. Who knows. Instead he seems to enjoy watching us puzzle it out for ourselves with millions of plausible theories in front of us and little guidance, save a contradictory collection of writings scribbled down 2000 years ago. I can only assume keeping freethinking folks guessing must be considered high entertainment in heaven.

Josh

It's just a ride. - Bill Hicks
 
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Jenyar said:
It's a logical fallacy that not knowing the nature of evil somehow prevents you from knowing that what isn't right is wrong. Adam did not listen because he found one interpretation (call it satan or "nature") of what is "good" more attractive than God's interpretation.

Not knowing what rape is like doesn't prevent you from knowing that it's wrong, does it? When Adam came to know "good and evil" (a Hebrew expression meaning 'to know everything'), it means he came to know what sin is like first hand. He sinned, therefore he knew sin. That created all sorts of problems because man was not designed to live with sin - it creates a rift between God, who provides the knowledge for what is good and right, and man, who has to live by it or die.

Isn't it interesting how, in the Christian tradition, the first sin -- the one responsible for all evil in the world -- was not hatred or violence or dishonesty, but man's thirst for knowledge?

And now we see that throughout history religious folk have so often opposed scientific progress, liberal reform, and tolerance of opposing ideas.

Hmmm. Probably just a coincidence, eh?

Josh

It's just a ride. - Bill Hicks
 
Isn't it interesting how, in the Christian tradition, the first sin -- the one responsible for all evil in the world -- was not hatred or violence or dishonesty, but man's thirst for knowledge?
You make it sound so innocent and harmless ... "knowledge" - as if that means anything. Knowledge of what? What about "every evil known to man". Not so innocuous if you ask me. Definitely not worth knowing. But you'd like to know it anyway, wouldn't you. Just because it's there to know. How long does an innocent inquirer stay innocent in the Red Light district - how long does his mind stay pure? Interesting that the Bible equates the resulting "knowledge" with self-awareness: they instantly became aware - not of all the secrets of the universe - but of their own nakedness. They were revealed to themselves as human. Not gods. Not untouchable. Not innocent anymore.

It seems rather odd that God would purposefully hide from those who need him the most, huh? I suppose it should come as no surprise that God likes to preach to the choir (granted, it is more fun). As far as Adam goes, you know if the Lord regularly walked and talked with me, maybe I'd be more receptive to his message. Who knows.
I know. I can make an educated guess, at least. God made himself known and visible to all who can't believe in Him - through Jesus. He came for those who need God most: sinners. But still it's not enough for you. He walked and talked with Adam - but how "receptive" were they? Quite - but it wasn't enough. Being receptive - even believing - is useless without actually listening.

For all the miracles Jesus did, for all He was and did - there were still people who doubted. There is nothing - nothing - that will force you to believe in God, his existence or his redemption. You are the final ingredient. Without your consent, there's nothing.
 
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Cool Jenyar,

Yeah I dig, but...

J - "It's a logical fallacy that not knowing the nature of evil somehow prevents you from knowing that what isn't right is wrong. Adam did not listen because he found one interpretation (call it satan or "nature") of what is "good" more attractive than God's interpretation."

If Adam did not have full knowledge of the meaning of "good" and "evil" and the potential consequences thereof, can we agree that therefore Adam could be considered naive? How could god allow a slick salesman like Satan to do a pitch on Adam? The odds are uncool. See... sounds like a setup. Hmmm...and why is it wrong to be curious?

J - "Not knowing what rape is like doesn't prevent you from knowing that it's wrong, does it? When Adam came to know "good and evil" (a Hebrew expression meaning 'to know everything'), it means he came to know what sin is like first hand. He sinned, therefore he knew sin. That created all sorts of problems because man was not designed to live with sin - it creates a rift between God, who provides the knowledge for what is good and right, and man, who has to live by it or die."

In court "diminished responsibilty" is a valid argument. Mentally deficient dudes who rape are not fully aware of the consequences. Therefore they can not be held fully responsible. I reckon Adam falls into this catogory. On top of that it still reeks of a setup.

Hey, I like your ride Josh. Seems like knowledge gives God an unfair disadvantage. It also seems human nature embodies an inherent doubting factor. Kinda like a survival tool. So it seems that Christianity is at odds with human nature. Now why is that?

Allcare.
 
If Adam did not have full knowledge of the meaning of "good" and "evil" and the potential consequences thereof, can we agree that therefore Adam could be considered naive? How could god allow a slick salesman like Satan to do a pitch on Adam? The odds are uncool. See... sounds like a setup. Hmmm...and why is it wrong to be curious?
I think you still misunderstand. Adam knew the difference between right and wrong, he had the same ability to distinguish between them that we do. Even if at that point is was a basic as choosing between God's will and his own. He demonstrated that knowledge when he answered the serpent "God told us not to".

How well do you know your country's laws? Down to every section, subsection and ammendment? I doubt it. Does that make skipping a traffic light any less wrong, or make you any less accountable for the ensuing chaos? Has "Sorry, officer, I was very naive" ever saved someone from a charge of culpable homicide?

What was "wrong" wasn't curiosity. It might have killed the cat, but it wasn't a sin. Disobeying a warning from God was bad enough, but it opened a pandora's box of sin. You see, God was the only thing that stood between their life and death. Today people think its moral behaviour, good works and so on, but it's still "just" God. Not knowledge of evil, or naivete. No salesman has authority above God, no matter how slick. God is where the buck stops.

In court "diminished responsibilty" is a valid argument. Mentally deficient dudes who rape are not fully aware of the consequences. Therefore they can not be held fully responsible. I reckon Adam falls into this catogory. On top of that it still reeks of a setup.
It only sounds like a setup because it's probably a very simplified and contrived representation of what happened. It's no less true for that, because what is described its certainly true for us. We have no reason to commit sin, yet we do. If it was something we could repair we would have done so long ago, but apparently it's not that easy. Now suddenly everybody is an authority on what to do and what not. Now that the walls have crumbled, it's easy to see what should be done to rebuild them - but we still have only the faintest clue what it requires to keep them standing.

Compared to our state, yes, you probably could describe Adam as having "diminished responsibility". But at that stage, diminished from what? He had a simple moral task: obedience. Nothing more than we expect of our children, except Adam and Eve weren't children. Their reasoning was in line with the greatest minds of our time: see fruit, fruit looks nice, eat fruit. They weren't tempted above their abilities - and God did not prohibit them beyond their rights. The only "setup" was by the serpent, and it's quite clear what he did - twisting the truth to make it sound harmless. "It's just healthy curiosity, go ahead - do what you feel is right..."
 
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Yo Jenyar dude,

Eesh...

J - "No salesman has authority above God, no matter how slick. God is where the buck stops."

God, all powerful and loving as he supposedly is, chose not to stop the buck in this instance. And the rest was apparantly Gods pre-ordained history.

J - "It only sounds like a setup because it's probably a very simplified and contrived representation of what happened."

It is all we have to go on. What other representation is there.

J - "He had a simple moral task: obedience."

Since when is obedience such a cut and dried moral obligation dude? Did God explain the honest implications regarding eating the fruit? Nope. He just said that eating the fruit results in death. (which did not occur anyway) He did not explain the big picture. So Adam had no reference point for his decision to chow down. He could have gone either way. When I tell my son not to play in the road, I qualify the statement with my reasoning. Cars are dangerous boy. They can make you sore. Besides you can play in the garden. And I want you to grow up boy, and not die young in the road. There is so many fun things for you to do still. Compare this to - "Hey play in the road and die!"

J - "Their reasoning was in line with the greatest minds of our time: see fruit, fruit looks nice, eat fruit. They weren't tempted above their abilities - and God did not prohibit them beyond their rights."

Nobody knows what their capabilities were. On what basis can you make that statement. Bottom line is - What outcome did God have in mind by putting both the tree and the tempter in the garden? The odds are still stacked against poor Adam.

You`re a cool running Jenyar.

Allcare.
 
God, all powerful and loving as he supposedly is, chose not to stop the buck in this instance. And the rest was apparantly Gods pre-ordained history.
Look around you. The buck is in our hands. We are it.

Since when is obedience such a cut and dried moral obligation dude? Did God explain the honest implications regarding eating the fruit? Nope. He just said that eating the fruit results in death. (which did not occur anyway) He did not explain the big picture.
And what picture is bigger than "you will die"? And don't you think maybe the lie that it "didn't occur" is potentially worse than Satan's "you won't die, you'll become like God"? It leaves you with that very same naivete you say Adam had - blissfully ignorant because you believed a lie rather than the truth. The point is, when God said "don't eat the fruit for you will die", He probably said that for that reason - it threatened their (our) existence in an undeniably real and immediate way.

But you're suggesting a world where there are no alternatives - no wrong decisions and therefore no right ones - no "away from God", no disobedience to God. You're describing a world where we don't exist. Or maybe hell.

So Adam had no reference point for his decision to chow down. He could have gone either way. When I tell my son not to play in the road, I qualify the statement with my reasoning. Cars are dangerous boy. They can make you sore. Besides you can play in the garden. And I want you to grow up boy, and not die young in the road. There is so many fun things for you to do still. Compare this to - "Hey play in the road and die!"
Adam's life was his reference point. After all, he had no trouble understanding the concept of death. "If you want to live" is a clear enough reference point for most people. Or are you now debating the semantics of the warning? If your son still plays in the road and gets run over after your well-phrased and reasonable argument, won't it be too late to have put it more strongly and concisely?

Nobody knows what their capabilities were. On what basis can you make that statement. Bottom line is - What outcome did God have in mind by putting both the tree and the tempter in the garden? The odds are still stacked against poor Adam.
So either they were naive and ill-equipped, or nobody knows their capabilities? You're not being reasonable here. Because the account is given for the benefit of later generations, like us, I think I'm pretty qualified to think they were just as capable as we are. We can corroborate their experience with our own, therefore it can't have been that different.

The fruit could have been anything - it could even be representative of something greater - but the fact that the only difference between that tree and the rest of the trees in Eden was God's word, means it at least represents God's word, if nothing else. The undeniable reality of a relationship between man and his Creator can hardly be erased without undoing something profound. You can't know God and not know God, or have His word and not have his word.

The presence of good is enough reason to resist evil, and the presence of life is enough reason to resist death.
 
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