Hard to believe?

Waiter_2001

Registered Senior Member
Perhaps the reason for atheism is because we are all born into a "Godless world." We are not born in the presence of God, but to know God is something to ascend to! *sings* "The only way is up!" Should we be born knowing God then that surely would be a tragedy since then we could only descend, and everyone would be evil.
 
Perhaps the reason for atheism is because we are all born into a "Godless world." We are not born in the presence of God, but to know God is something to ascend to! *sings* "The only way is up!" Should we be born knowing God then that surely would be a tragedy since then we could only descend, and everyone would be evil.


A similar thought: According to C.S. Lewis, God did not create a race of automatons who would sing His praises night and day because where would the value lie in that?

Rather he created a race with intelligence and free will that might choose to praise His name.

Our love for God is only valuable if freely given.
 
Perhaps the reason for atheism is because we are all born into a "Godless world." We are not born in the presence of God, but to know God is something to ascend to! *sings* "The only way is up!" Should we be born knowing God then that surely would be a tragedy since then we could only descend, and everyone would be evil.
Are you saying that those who have not "ascended" are evil?
 
Perhaps the reason for atheism is because we are all born into a "Godless world." We are not born in the presence of God, but to know God is something to ascend to! *sings* "The only way is up!" Should we be born knowing God then that surely would be a tragedy since then we could only descend, and everyone would be evil.

I don't literally believe in God, but there's probably some truth to that.

For most theists, 'God' kind of suggests perfection. God is the best, the highest, the ultimate. So a feeling for God is kind of synonymous in many people's minds with the confidence that reality can be better than what they experience around them, better than the conditions of their own lives.

God is kind of a hope and aspiration, I guess.

Atheists often place similar faith in ideas like 'progress'.
 
Are you saying that those who have not "ascended" are evil?

I think that he/she meant that if we already occupied the pinnacle, then there wouldn't be any more 'up' (hope or aspiration) and that there would only be 'down'. Everyone who wasn't perfect would be beneath us.
 
How about the billions of people living in China and India that have never been informed about you "god"? Since they never heard of it then are they condemned somehow in your view?
 
How about the billions of people living in China and India that have never been informed about you "god"? Since they never heard of it then are they condemned somehow in your view?

How about you find out what's really going on in India and China? You must think they're real nincompoops.
 
A similar thought: According to C.S. Lewis, God did not create a race of automatons who would sing His praises night and day because where would the value lie in that?

Rather he created a race with intelligence and free will that might choose to praise His name.

Our love for God is only valuable if freely given.[/SIZE][/FONT][/B]

Then why punish those who choose otherwise? And why create beings for the purpose of praise in the first place? Talk about needy.
 
Then why punish those who choose otherwise? And why create beings for the purpose of praise in the first place? Talk about needy.

God punishes no one. If any one says otherwise they have misunderstood. 'Hell' is to be spiritually distant from God. As for why He created beings to praise Him. Again you misunderstand. While 'love' is fine between two human beings, who are more or less equal, God is so much more - defying comprehension- that we term this love as worship or praise. No human being can know precisely why He created us. I am not saying He works in mysterious ways exactly, I am just pointing out that trying to learn God's motives for doing what He does is much like paramecia figuring out how, say, an iPad works, except infinitely more so.
 
God punishes no one. If any one says otherwise they have misunderstood. 'Hell' is to be spiritually distant from God. As for why He created beings to praise Him. Again you misunderstand. While 'love' is fine between two human beings, who are more or less equal, God is so much more - defying comprehension- that we term this love as worship or praise. No human being can know precisely why He created us. I am not saying He works in mysterious ways exactly, I am just pointing out that trying to learn God's motives for doing what He does is much like paramecia figuring out how, say, an iPad works, except infinitely more so.

According to the lore of the fiction, he's punished plenty if people. Didn't he flood the earth? Didn't he destroy cities? Didn't he order wars, and endorse ensuing rape and pillaging? And that's before we get to Jesus, who promised eternal hellfire for everyone who doesn't follow him.
 
According to the lore of the fiction, he's punished plenty if people [sic]. Didn't he flood the earth? Didn't he destroy cities? Didn't he order wars, and endorse ensuing rape and pillaging? And that's before we get to Jesus, who promised eternal hellfire for everyone who doesn't follow him.

If it is "the lore of fiction" as you confusingly call it, how can you use it as the basis of your further argument? I have already pointed out that you have misunderstood, yet you deliberately ignore all that I've explained and ask questions you should know the answer to, if you've been following the OP's main point, and my supporting remarks.

You don't accept the biblical stories you have cited, and for no particular reason assume that the OP and I believe these stories. Why would you do that?

What I think the OP means is that God is pure goodness. For whatever reason, He has removed us from His presence. According to Waiter_2001 (the OP) then : 'The only way is up'. That is all he is saying. I have added that, well, why repeat myself? Please reread my posts above if you are sincerely interested.

Now, trying to address your concerns, pure goodness and light punishes no one. By not adhering to goodness we have made our own bed and have had to sleep in it, so to speak. War and disaster and whatever are the natural consequences of sin. Think of it as karmic law, if that helps. God wisely allows us to make mistakes in order that we may learn.

I think it is very ignorant when people say things like so and so got cancer as a punishment from God for his sins. What nonsense! It's like saying 'pure goodness caused his cancer'. How can such a thing be? Poor diet, life in a capitalistically run, polluted environment, genetic inheritance may cause cancer, but it's a pretty complicated soup, is it not? No human being knows the why and how of our existence.

I have had a cold this past week that I got from being caught in the rain a short time. My resistance to disease was lowered because I became cold and wet, and perhaps I haven't been eating right. Cold virus germs , which need to make a living too, saw an opportunity... I don't like it,, but there you go. While, I have surely sinned recently, as well as not so recently, I don't think my cold is a punishment from God. The universe is more complex than that.

Much of the trouble in the world is man made. There is hunger because those who have enough don't share with those who do not. There is poverty because the ruling class prefers to keep commercial profits to themselves. There is war because people with too many resources paradoxically then want more (among other reasons) - all of them amount to not striving toward goodness.

Other trouble is due to natural consequences. Due to its formation (long story) our planet still has a molten core. Its cooled hard crust shifts, there are earthquakes, and tsunamis. Get in the way and...

In the New Testament of this Bible you are so fond of referring to, it is said concerning random misfortune:

"Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them--do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish." (Luke 13:5-6)

Do you see? This is more a matter of saying, "Sorry Jesus, I won't do it again!" What the OP, and Jesus in the quoted passage, are talking about is a sincere striving toward betterment. Jesus didn't mean you will die in a building collapse if you don't love Him. He is saying that bad things happen, and the only way out is up.
 
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Now, trying to address your concerns, pure goodness and light punishes no one. By not adhering to goodness we have made our own bed and have had to sleep in it, so to speak. War and disaster and whatever are the natural consequences of sin. Think of it as karmic law, if that helps. God wisely allows us to make mistakes in order that we may learn.
Is that why tornadoes always hit the bible belt in the US?

I think it is very ignorant when people say things like so and so got cancer as a punishment from God for his sins. What nonsense! It's like saying 'pure goodness caused his cancer'. How can such a thing be? Poor diet, life in a capitalistically run, polluted environment, genetic inheritance may cause cancer, but it's a pretty complicated soup, is it not? No human being knows the why and how of our existence.
Isn't that a contradiction?

You just said that war and disasters are a natural consequence of sin. Yet you don't think that a disease can be the result of individual sin? Isn't that a contradiction? Or are you just being picky?

I have had a cold this past week that I got from being caught in the rain a short time. My resistance to disease was lowered because I became cold and wet, and perhaps I haven't been eating right. Cold virus germs , which need to make a living too, saw an opportunity... I don't like it,, but there you go. While, I have surely sinned recently, as well as not so recently, I don't think my cold is a punishment from God. The universe is more complex than that.
Does that mean if you get a natural weather disaster, it's because you feel you sinned?

Much of the trouble in the world is man made. There is hunger because those who have enough don't share with those who do not. There is poverty because the ruling class prefers to keep commercial profits to themselves. There is war because people with too many resources paradoxically then want more (among other reasons) - all of them amount to not striving toward goodness.

Other trouble is due to natural consequences. Due to its formation (long story) our planet still has a molten core. Its cooled hard crust shifts, there are earthquakes, and tsunamis. Get in the way and...

In the New Testament of this Bible you are so fond of referring to, it is said concerning random misfortune:

"Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them--do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish." (Luke 13:5-6)

Do you see? This is more a matter of saying, "Sorry Jesus, I won't do it again!" What the OP, and Jesus in the quoted passage, are talking about is a sincere striving toward betterment. Jesus didn't mean you will die in a building collapse if you don't love Him. He is saying that bad things happen, and the only way out is up.
If bad things happen anyway, what's the point of repenting?
 
Arne Saknussemm said:
If it is "the lore of fiction" as you confusingly call it, how can you use it as the basis of your further argument? I have already pointed out that you have misunderstood, yet you deliberately ignore all that I've explained and ask questions you should know the answer to, if you've been following the OP's main point, and my supporting remarks.
You said that I'm misunderstanding, but your argument requires that one ignores scripture, which seems odd since you're Christian, and the "God" of the OP is certainly the Christian deity. I'm fairly certain this "God as pure love" stuff has no scriptural basis...which, again, seems odd since you are a Christian.

Unless I'm mistaken, and you're Jewish, but that would make your claims about God's "pure goodness" even more confusing.

You don't accept the biblical stories you have cited, and for no particular reason assume that the OP and I believe these stories. Why would you do that?

Because I've seen you profess your faith on this forum before, and even quote scripture; you do so again below. If you don't believe the stories of the bible, how can you cite it as evidence of God's nature?

What I think the OP means is that God is pure goodness.

What would ever make him think that?

For whatever reason, He has removed us from His presence.

How can you say God is purely good when you don't know his motives?

Now, trying to address your concerns, pure goodness and light punishes no one. By not adhering to goodness we have made our own bed and have had to sleep in it, so to speak. War and disaster and whatever are the natural consequences of sin. Think of it as karmic law, if that helps. God wisely allows us to make mistakes in order that we may learn.

Setting aside for a moment the hugely ridiculous assertion that wars and natural disasters are a consequence of sin (let me guess: it's the gays, isn't it?) you need to be reminded, apparently, that as the creator of existence, God set the "karmic" parameters, and necessarily devised the negative outcomes. There is no way to avoid God being responsible for suffering, as he created suffering itself. If he did not want people to suffer, then why did he necessitate suffering for those who did not follow the path he laid out for them?

Ah, see, here's where you say we can't possibly hope to understand him, but let me save you the trouble and repeat: if we can't understand his motives, how so we know he's pure goodness?

I think it is very ignorant when people say things like so and so got cancer as a punishment from God for his sins. What nonsense! It's like saying 'pure goodness caused his cancer'.

No. You seem to assume he is pure goodness first, then use that as an excuse to dismiss aspects of his nature you don't like. People who attribute their illness or misfortune to God are simply assuming that, as creator and maintainer of the whole of existence, God has a say in everything that happens. It's really not any different from you saying war and natural disasters are a product of sin, which is how God designed it to happen. They're less kooky, though, since those same people who believe God had a hand things tend to accept, perhaps paradoxically, their own role, if any, in how things played out.

How can such a thing be? Poor diet, life in a capitalistically run, polluted environment, genetic inheritance may cause cancer, but it's a pretty complicated soup, is it not? No human being knows the why and how of our existence.

You recognize the nature of illness, but don't understand hurricanes?

I have had a cold this past week that I got from being caught in the rain a short time. My resistance to disease was lowered because I became cold and wet, and perhaps I haven't been eating right. Cold virus germs , which need to make a living too, saw an opportunity... I don't like it,, but there you go. While, I have surely sinned recently, as well as not so recently, I don't think my cold is a punishment from God. The universe is more complex than that.

Much of the trouble in the world is man made. There is hunger because those who have enough don't share with those who do not. There is poverty because the ruling class prefers to keep commercial profits to themselves. There is war because people with too many resources paradoxically then want more (among other reasons) - all of them amount to not striving toward goodness.

You're strawmanning. I'm not saying that God is responsible for all of man's ills. I'm an atheist, so that particular scapegoat isn't available to me. What I'm saying is that per your own literature, , also known as the foundational documents of your religion, God punishes people. And does so mercilessly.

In the New Testament of this Bible you are so fond of referring to, it is said concerning random misfortune:

"Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them--do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish." (Luke 13:5-6)

Do you see? This is more a matter of saying, "Sorry Jesus, I won't do it again!" What the OP, and Jesus in the quoted passage, are talking about is a sincere striving toward betterment. Jesus didn't mean you will die in a building collapse if you don't love Him. He is saying that bad things happen, and the only way out is up

No, that's not what he's saying at all. In fact, quite the opposite. For one, he doesn't view the tower collapse as random, and neither do the people he's speaking to. He views it as the will of God, and so do they. He points out that they weren't all great sinners to drive home the point that all sin results in death, and repenting is the only way to avoid it. He's saying, "repent, or the same will happen to you."
 
Perhaps the reason for atheism is because we are all born into a "Godless world." We are not born in the presence of God, but to know God is something to ascend to! *sings* "The only way is up!" Should we be born knowing God then that surely would be a tragedy since then we could only descend, and everyone would be evil.

I take it that you do know God?
 
Perhaps the reason for atheism is because we are all born into a "Godless world." We are not born in the presence of God, but to know God is something to ascend to! *sings* "The only way is up!" Should we be born knowing God then that surely would be a tragedy since then we could only descend, and everyone would be evil.

The implication is that knowledge of god is a tragedy, and that only the journey of ascending is of value. But once acscedence is completed then what? According to your reasoning the only thing left is down. It would seem that the way up is ultimately a waste. The best course here appears to remain atheist and not bother with the yoyo journey up and down.
 
Perhaps the reason for atheism is because we are all born into a "Godless world." We are not born in the presence of God, but to know God is something to ascend to! *sings* "The only way is up!" Should we be born knowing God then that surely would be a tragedy since then we could only descend, and everyone would be evil.

It's almost like he's pretending not to exist at all! Hmmm.
 
In Christian mythology physical pain and death are of little consequence except as tests of faith. It is the spiritual world that is paramount. Whether you have a disease or are killed by random acts of nature it does not matter in the long term since your physical presence is a minor transitional experience when compared to your immortal soul.

A primary teaching of Jesus was to love your enemies and to turn the other cheek when presented by attackers, and to never kill anyone for whatever reason. For example if an intruder is about to murder your wife and children and to prevent that would require you kill the intruder - from the pure Christian perspective you must have faith that true judgement of the intruder and the survival of your family and yourself are ultimately in the afterlife and that you must obey the rule of do not kill - an extreme test of your faith.

That God has caused many physical deaths and allowed natural disasters to kill many more, is really irrelevant when immortal souls simply continue afterwards unaffected.

For the atheist there is no soul and physical dangers present real issues for survival. If atheists ruled the world it would seem unlikely there would ever be wars - life is simply too precious and priceless to risk. In a spiritual model physical life has little value and where if killed in war it is of little consequence since true life exists only in spiritual form.

The objective of Christianity is to achieve eternal life and that is only possible through a belief in Jesus as a savior. That is the reward for obeying the rules of Christianity. But what if you do not obey, what then? Does God punish? It would seem that is not the case, he remains simply absent and takes no role in protecting your immortality. We can argue that that is punishment by omission. The argument that God can do no harm then becomes somewhat lukewarm.

In the Asimov robot stories the first rule is that a robot may not harm a human or through inaction allow a human come to harm. It would seem to me that this simple concept should clearly apply to God's actions if he were truly ALL GOOD. The argument that humans have free will and can choose equally between belief and non belief cannot apply since those tendencies and biases we have are an integral part of human nature and hence are part of our design. Why would God create such a defective design knowing that many of his created products would choose incorrectly? A car manufacturer would be sued appropriately, so shouldn't we hold God to even higher standards?
 
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