Heaven is real, says neurosurgeon

I suspect you're not telling us the whole story.


There's a Jewish principle, it goes in roundabout like this:
In your left pocket, always carry a note that says "For my sake was the world created."
In your right pocket, always carry a note that says "I am nothing but dust."
When you are feeling elated and things seem to be going really well for you, read the note from your right pocket.
When you're feeling sad and nothing seems to be going your way, read the note from your left pocket.

Not bad... Not bad at all!
 
I suddenly feel the urge to call seagypsy an asshat...

Hm. Weird.

You know I read somewhere that "when Balerion and Seagypsy begin to get along it is a sign of the second coming of Carl Sagan" or something like that, I can't remember the exact wording, maybe it was Einstein that is coming back.
 
You know I read somewhere that "when Balerion and Seagypsy begin to get along it is a sign of the second coming of Carl Sagan" or something like that, I can't remember the exact wording, maybe it was Einstein that is coming back.

If I have any say, it'll be Hitchens.

For the record, we've gotten along before. Our latest disagreement was compounded by horrible moderation, in my opinion.
 
I suspect you're not telling us the whole story.


There's a Jewish principle, it goes in roundabout like this:
In your left pocket, always carry a note that says "For my sake was the world created."
In your right pocket, always carry a note that says "I am nothing but dust."
When you are feeling elated and things seem to be going really well for you, read the note from your right pocket.
When you're feeling sad and nothing seems to be going your way, read the note from your left pocket.
I like that. Although I don't believe the world was created for my sake, that doesn't matter. I don't have a clue as to why the universe is here. So, as long as we can't "f" it up, it might as well be here for me, or you.
 
Actually, wynn, no offense, but this is the first time you've contributed something, which I found interesting. I located a sermon that took on a form of a letter,which was similar to what the neuroscientist, Rodolfo Llinas said, “I can imagine a religion saying that matter and energy is God. It’s a beautiful thought, but instead of understanding what you are, you want to be what you’re not. However, it’s just because they don’t understand how precious, and absolutely incredible matter is, or how precious you are, and it is sad. Just because we can understand feelings from a material point of view, people view it as though it somehow demeans our nature, but instead, it says that we are one with everything else. What more could you possibly ask for?”

The Talmud makes a statement: Every person should walk through life with two notes, one in each pocket. On one note should be the words, Ani afar ve‘efer—I am nothing but dust and ashes. On the other note should be the words, Bishvili nivra ha’olam—For my sake was this world created.

Those two notes are in complete contradiction to one another, yet the Talmud says they both are true. Here is what they mean to me. When I sit on a bench facing the shore where I live and watch the waves roll in and look at the endless sky, I become aware of how insignificant I am. All this was here millions of years before me and will go on millions of years after I am gone. In the face of the eternity of time, I am not even a radar blip, I‘m not even a point on the line. I am totally insignificant. Therefore, if I am to live to 85 instead of 58, so what? My death, like my life, means nothing in the long run. Even the pain my family would feel would be lost in the full long scheme of things. Ani afar ve’efer—I am nothing but dust and ashes.

On the other hand, Bishvili nivra ha’olam—for my sake the whole world was created! I am so significant, I am so important, so critical, that all this is worth being just so I can experience it! Can you imagine, Malcolm, what a miracle we all are, just by being? The mathematical probability, said Albert Einstein, of my being born as who I am, is not .000000001; it is zero! Yet I am here. And every moment of life is a miracle beyond my comprehension! That I can see those waves, that I can walk on that shore, that I can smell that sea, that I can gaze on a sunset. These are experiences that quadrillions of souls never had and never will! I am in Awe of this universe and of my presence in it. Every moment of life is a miracle! And we must never forget that! That’s the lesson of cancer, or any life-threatening disease! The magnificence of the moment! Should I complain after having been granted so many moments of this, even one moment of being? Certainly not! And if I choose to complain, to be bitter about the probability that I will not make it to 80, what should I say to those young people in Turkey who were buried in the earthquake, or to the children who were shot by militia in East Timor, or those infants in any hospital’s critical-care neonatal unit? How many of them would give everything just to live long enough to be a lymphoma patient at the age of 57? Sure, it would be nice to live to 90. But if I’m not grateful for reaching my age and having all the magnificent blessings that have been and are still mine, then I know nothing of life. Malcolm, I stand each day in awe of my own existence, which frankly is beyond my comprehension. I cannot truly fully grasp the realization that I am. How long I am is not nearly as significant as that I am, now, and have been for so long already. http://www.clal.org/ss60.html

I prefer, “I am nothing but dust from which the whole world was created.” This is enough to satisfy my oxymoronic desire of being one with all.
 
That goes hand in hand with the whole "purpose" argument. Believers use their religion to give them some sense of higher purpose, and can't understand how someone can live without this guide. On the other hand, an atheist (not all of course, but some of us) can accept that the universe cares not one bit about us and has no set plan, but yet we can make our own purpose and be an important part of our little corner.
 
On the other hand, an atheist (not all of course, but some of us) can accept that the universe cares not one bit about us and has no set plan, but yet we can make our own purpose and be an important part of our little corner.
Fair enough. Do what you do best. Do the physics and engineering at the very challenging levels. Keep the economy growing with new products and services. Serve the community the way you do it best.

Those who have the instinct to worship, should worship. Donate to the poor/needy. Continue to fight for what you believe in. The Christians should continue reaching out to war torn areas of the world, spreading the gospel, love, civilization. I will do what I do best in my little niche of the universe.
 
Fair enough. Do what you do best. Do the physics and engineering at the very challenging levels. Keep the economy growing with new products and services. Serve the community the way you do it best.

Those who have the instinct to worship, should worship. Donate to the poor/needy. Continue to fight for what you believe in. The Christians should continue reaching out to war torn areas of the world, spreading the gospel, love, civilization. I will do what I do best in my little niche of the universe.

Wow, you are kind of limiting people. I know plenty of theists that don't seem to give a damned about anyone but themselves and you couldn't get them to give to charity no matter if they won the lottery. And I know of atheists who work in soup kitchens,not for glory, eternal life, or even a pat on the back, but because it makes them feel good to help someone else out. I really hope you are not stereotyping people based on their faith or lack of faith. People are individuals and their belief or lack of belief in a God rarely has anything to do with how charitable a person is. Sometimes it's simply their own economic circumstances others its just how selfish or not they have learned to be throughout their life.
 
There is actually nothing at all wrong with science. Science is merely the word we use to describe human reasoning and wisdom. What you really mean is, the rational mind rejects the fallacy that a mind can exist outside of a functional brain. The statement that this is not proven is false. You're merely rejecting the proof along with the science that offers it.

The statement that is not proven is not false, it's false only when it's proven that is false-from where did you get this idea? But life experience from people who try alternatives doesn't respect scientific laws, just because science says something it doesn't mean it's always the case. Yes, there are many frauds, but those people with genuine abilities (if there are any), will not respond to James Randi's 1 million dollar challenge and you will never see them or hear them in public, they are not interested in money and fame, I know I wouldn't if I had any of those strange abilities, I don't want to be scientific rat or being the joke where science is trying to disprove me with these materialistic views, in that area science has become pretty much like religion.
My entire argument is simple: you cannot prove disprove the existence of afterlife or God and similar., we know too little of the universe, and it's impossible to tell if there are other forces, energies and etc. that do not interact with the rest of the universe.
 
You are a scary dude. I am an atheist and a misanthrope, and I don't think about killing people. If I were a moderator here I would be contacting your ISP an telling them to inform your local law enforcement to be aware of your instability.

I don't kill people and it's not my intention to do an harm, my extreme post here was simply because what would happen it you scientifically prove that justice, good, bad or evil do not exist, and therefore those terms/concepts should be banned-we would kill each other. These fictional, man-made concepts is what brought us civilized behaviour and helped to our civilization to rise, without those concepts there wouldn't be any civilization.
My point: So if we believe in irrational, non-existent concepts like justice, good, bad, evil and etc., why it is forbidden to irrationally believe in God?
This is sometimes good and sometimes it is bad, it all depends who is using this for their own selfish interest and rule the world communities, or actually do something good in the name of this concept-God.
 
The statement that is not proven is not false, it's false only when it's proven that is false-from where did you get this idea? But life experience from people who try alternatives doesn't respect scientific laws, just because science says something it doesn't mean it's always the case. Yes, there are many frauds, but those people with genuine abilities (if there are any), will not respond to James Randi's 1 million dollar challenge and you will never see them or hear them in public, they are not interested in money and fame, I know I wouldn't if I had any of those strange abilities, I don't want to be scientific rat or being the joke where science is trying to disprove me with these materialistic views, in that area science has become pretty much like religion.
My entire argument is simple: you cannot prove disprove the existence of afterlife or God and similar., we know too little of the universe, and it's impossible to tell if there are other forces, energies and etc. that do not interact with the rest of the universe.

So because you wouldn't want the money you are projecting that onto everyone else? If I had psychic ability I'd be a rich woman. Yes it would be annoying to become a lab rat for some time if not the rest of my life but which of us is not a lab rat? I guess anyone who refuses to see a doctor would be free of that description.

I think its safe to say there are plenty of people that if psychic would want or need that money and would take the challenge if for no reason other than to donate the money to charity. So you can't rationalize that the reason they don't come forward is because no psychic would want the money and the evidence of that is because YOU would not want the money.
 
I don't kill people and it's not my intention to do an harm, my extreme post here was simply because what would happen it you scientifically prove that justice, good, bad or evil do not exist, and therefore those terms/concepts should be banned-we would kill each other. These fictional, man-made concepts is what brought us civilized behaviour and helped to our civilization to rise, without those concepts there wouldn't be any civilization.
My point: So if we believe in irrational, non-existent concepts like justice, good, bad, evil and etc., why it is forbidden to irrationally believe in God?
This is sometimes good and sometimes it is bad, it all depends who is using this for their own selfish interest and rule the world communities, or actually do something good in the name of this concept-God.

If we could prove those things, some people would go bat shit crazy and start killing all frivolous like. While the majority of people would still cringe at the sight of blood and go on about their lives as they do simply because there is no good reason to cause wanton destruction. The majority of atheists do not believe in evil, or absolute morality but they still resist the urge to go and kill just for fun. I don't believe in the existence of good or evil, yet most people who know me consider me to be a good person, charitable, and even altruistic at times. Funny that, a person with no god or absolute morality can still manage to behave as a civilized human being.
 
So because you wouldn't want the money you are projecting that onto everyone else? If I had psychic ability I'd be a rich woman. Yes it would be annoying to become a lab rat for some time if not the rest of my life but which of us is not a lab rat? I guess anyone who refuses to see a doctor would be free of that description.

I think its safe to say there are plenty of people that if psychic would want or need that money and would take the challenge if for no reason other than to donate the money to charity. So you can't rationalize that the reason they don't come forward is because no psychic would want the money and the evidence of that is because YOU would not want the money.

Those people don't want to be in public they want their own private life and leave me alone, you should respect that, he doesn't want to be famous and he doesn't want money. Your example with the doctor is apples and oranges example. Doctors are not stigmatized from the side of science, unlike people who have unusual abilities are, because their abilities do not play by the rules that science has and provides.
 
People care, of course. They don't like getting killed and don't like having family members killed. You don't need a God to explain a lack of desire to die.
Besides, watch Discovery Channel. Many animals do kill rather indiscriminately and God isn't impinging on their sense of Absolute Morality.

Groups of people opposed to getting murdered will hunt you down after you've killed a few people, tie you up and kill you.

Have you not noticed? People are running around killing people. Usually, they do so in Gods name.

See my post 493.
 
If we could prove those things, some people would go bat shit crazy and start killing all frivolous like. While the majority of people would still cringe at the sight of blood and go on about their lives as they do simply because there is no good reason to cause wanton destruction. The majority of atheists do not believe in evil, or absolute morality but they still resist the urge to go and kill just for fun. I don't believe in the existence of good or evil, yet most people who know me consider me to be a good person, charitable, and even altruistic at times. Funny that, a person with no god or absolute morality can still manage to behave as a civilized human being.

Tell that to the wild west history. If there was no fictional concepts like law, there wouldn't be any humans left.
 
Tell that to the wild west history. If there was no fictional concepts like law, there wouldn't be any humans left.

Yeah, ok- You don't know much about history do you?
Tell you what... Why bother with history?

Let's look at the most secular nations and what their crime rates are:
Most secular (average agnostic or atheist 15% or higher... Some were over the majority- higher than 50%)-
-Austria
-Belgium
-Czech
-France
-Germany
-Hungary
-Netherlands

United States is 79% Christian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Ruh Roh, we have a statistical problem here...
Most of the more secular nations have a lower homicide rate than the United States, which is vast majority Christian!
 
Those people don't want to be in public they want their own private life and leave me alone, you should respect that, he doesn't want to be famous and he doesn't want money. Your example with the doctor is apples and oranges example. Doctors are not stigmatized from the side of science, unlike people who have unusual abilities are, because their abilities do not play by the rules that science has and provides.

How do you KNOW what those people want? Are YOU psychic? Who is this "he" you speak of? I don't think you understood my analogy with the doctors at all. When you go see a doctor for being sick. Your doctor may prescribe for you a medicine. His hypothesis based on observation of other patients with similar symptoms is that you will have a similar response to the medication that other patients of similar symptom and medical background have had. Occasionally, this little experiment will fail and you will not have the expected response to the medication and they will have to change medications. In this case you have been experimented on so therefore you are a lab rat. The intentions of the doctor may not be the same as investigative scientists in a lab but the procedure and methods are the same.
 
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