Holocaust ... and other forms of Denial

[iceaura]

And boys are taller than girls (on average - as a population).

Not necessarily, when compared across different populations and races and so forth- Netherlands with Hmong, say. You have been corrected on that one three times now.

And that's the case even with a genetic difference that is established, very large, traceable to specific chromosomes, and with known mechanisms. Your silly justification of your racism denial via IQ doesn't even work when you are right about the genetics, by chance.

 

[iceaura]

Oh, I know your claim.

Part A: Postulate a group, which you called 'Black People', without providing ANY means of objectively determining who is, or who is not, a 'Black People'.
Part B: Postulate that 'White Racism', this magical substance that oozes from 'White People' without defining 'White Racism', or showing how you objectively can determine who is 'White People'.
Part C: Repeat, ad nauseam 'its effects', without defining what you mean by 'effects', without giving any good evidence of an 'effect', as a matter of fact, without ever providing any evidence to back up any of your claims at all.

I'm not even bothering to make any of those claims. I just take them for granted - my claim is that you are denying all that stuff. You are denying the existence of the group I call "US black people" (except when you claim they have an "inherent" average IQ, as a population). You are denying the existence of what I call white people as well (again, with the exception of assigning them an inherent average IQ).

And in a grand culmination, you are denying the existence of what I call white racism, and its effects on what I call black people in what I call the US. That's my claim - I'm just pointing at you, and claiming you are denying all that stuff.

And noting that this denial resembles Holocaust denial, right down to infecting the same demographic groups and even the same people.

 

[Schmelzer]

Of course, it's magical White Racism having "effects" on the ability of women to play chess.

Sorry, no, that's magical White Paternalism having such effects. SCNR.

 

[Syne]

Doens't matter what "I" do, or even if "I" exist. You made a claim that White Racism 'is effecting' (weasle words) Black Americans (presumably negatively, though in the case of Yellow Americans, it seems to play a positive role), thus, because YOU are making the clam, then YOU provide the data.

Fat chance iceaura EVER supports his own claims.

 

[Syne]

I'm not even bothering to make any of those claims. I just take them for granted - my claim is that you are denying all that stuff.

As I think he's already told you, basic science starts from the null hypothesis. Your silly a priori assumptions are unfounded unless you can support them.

 

[iceaura]

As I think he's already told you, basic science starts from the null hypothesis. Your silly a priori assumptions are unfounded unless you can support them.

And the list of people who think it's reasonable to deny white racism and its effects on black people in the US is incremented by one.

All of them, unless my memory betrays me, with track records of significant degrees of Holocaust denial on this forum.

 

[Michael]

Not necessarily, when compared across different populations and races and so forth- Netherlands with Hmong, say. You have been corrected on that one three times now.

LOL

Hahahahaha..... too funny.

Yes iceaura, 'not necessarily'. Yes, I agree, different populations of people have different average biological characteristics strongly correlated to their genetics. YES iceaura, a population of dutch girls are on average taller than a population of Hmong boys. Yes, we agree. Oh, and yes, a population of E. Asians / Yellow People have a higher IQ (on average, but not necessarily [LOL]) than "White People".

LOL

You're starting to get it.
Baby steps

Get this, across the world, if you average ALL boys and ALL girls, boys are (due to their genetics) bigger, taller, more muscular, have narrower hips, more upper body strength, more facial hair, less fat in their chest / breasts.... oh, and.... wait for it, generally have a penis, testicles and produce spermatozoa.

Shocking, I know.

LOL


To give you an idea of just how crazy these Progressive Social Marxists are: In the Democratic Socialist's fantasy world, transgender male-to-female individuals should be allowed to enter sports competitions to compete against biological females. In some cases, beating the shit out of them. Now, stop and think about this. Males biologically produce more testosterone (genetically) relative to females (not necessarily, but on average ). Transgender male to female individuals have more testosterone, much higher levels than women (giving them the physical *GASP* advantages of *GAAAASP* biological men) - yet, it is ILLEGAL for the women they compete against to inject testosterone.

It should be noted, when neuroscientists refer to 'sex' they refer to 4 categories:
1. Genetic
2. Phenotypic
3. Brain Anatomy
4. Subjective Experience


Yes, nothing is 'necessarily' in the world of biology. Which is why we save that line of reasoning for mathematics and opt to instead use generalised trends. Which requires the Scientific Method. And is why iceaura cannot objectively define what the category 'Black People' even is and thus relies on weak ad hominem, appeals to emotion, appeals to common knowledge, appeals to contemporary feels, etc.... AKA: Classic Sophism.

 

[Michael]

I'm not even bothering to make any of those claims. I just take them for granted ....

LOL

It's quite clear you're not a Scientist. But, more so, you don't appear to be academically inclined at all. Even a basic argument, like: 1 + 2 = 3, requires that the terms be rigorously defined.

Part A: Postulate a group, which you called 'Black People', without providing ANY means of objectively determining who is, or who is not, a 'Black People'.
Part B: Postulate that 'White Racism', this magical substance that oozes from 'White People' without defining 'White Racism', or showing how you objectively can determine who is 'White People'.
Part C: Repeat, ad nauseam 'its effects', without defining what you mean by 'effects', without giving any good evidence of an 'effect', as a matter of fact, without ever providing any evidence to back up any of your claims at all.
​

Those are components of your claim, you must define them, provide evidence to defend your argument, or you are just babbling like a sophist. But that's the interesting thing about our modern western world, thanks to cultural Marxism, sophism has replaced critical thinking. Hell, most Government School graduates can barely read at grade level 8, let alone develop an argument and defend it.

Progressive Socialism, destroying society one day at a time, so you don't have to.

 

[Michael]

RE: Holocaust Denial

[T]he world’s two leading Holocaust museums, in Washington and in Jerusalem, issued statements emphasizing the centrality of the annihilation of the Jews to the understanding of the Holocaust; neither mentioned Trump. The “5 million” has driven Holocaust historians to distraction ever since Wiesenthal started to peddle it in the 1970s. Wiesenthal told the Washington Post in 1979, “I have sought with Jewish leaders not to talk about 6 million Jewish dead, but rather about 11 million civilians dead, including 6 million Jews.”

Yehuda Bauer, an Israeli Holocaust scholar who chairs the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, said he warned his friend Wiesenthal, who died in 2005, about spreading the false notion that the Holocaust claimed 11 million victims – 6 million Jews and 5 million non-Jews. “I said to him, ‘Simon, you are telling a lie,’” Bauer recalled in an interview Tuesday. “He said, ‘Sometimes you need to do that to get the results for things you think are essential.’” Bauer and other historians who knew Wiesenthal said the Nazi hunter told them that he chose the 5 million number carefully: He wanted a number large enough to attract the attention of non-Jews who might not otherwise care about Jewish​

See, this is what happens when you lie. Holocaust Denier's were correct in their assertion 11 million people did not die, instead of admitting the truth, people like Wiesenthal prefer to lie as a means to justify their unstated goals. In the end, Jews were barely mentioned at the last Holocaust ceremony, because it's now important to 'be inclusive', and remember 'all those' that died (even though they were for the most part - made up).

National Socialism killed 6 million Jews, 50 million others in war.
Communist Socialism starved and killed between 100 - 200 million humans.



It's quite clear where the problem lays, and it starts with the idea that we can use government (violence) against morally innocent 'groups' of people, for the good of society - violating the individual (in favour of 'society') along the way. Sadly, it seems, we're right back full circle, ready to start again.

 

[Syne]

And the list of people who think it's reasonable to deny white racism and its effects on black people in the US is incremented by one.

All of them, unless my memory betrays me, with track records of significant degrees of Holocaust denial on this forum.

Again, who has denied white racism? Don't you even remember that your own claim was denying white racism as the primary cause for current black outcomes? And even there, I agreed that the racist policies of Democrats have contributed to their current outcomes.

And where has anyone in this thread denied the Holocaust?
You just really can't help but exaggerate your paranoid boogeyman, can you?

 

[Syne]

 

[iceaura]

Get this, across the world, if you average ALL boys and ALL girls,

Genetically identified populations - you were saying?

YES iceaura, a population of dutch girls are on average taller than a population of Hmong boys. Yes, we agree.

Likewise Dutch boys compared with Hmong boys. Now you can learn - human height is "inherited", is "genetic", even more strongly than IQ. And still your "inherent genetic" argument falls apart as soon as you are careless about your populations.

See, this is what happens when you lie.

Fascism becomes socialism? White racism stops having effects on black people? Everything idiotic somebody else said becomes true? What?

And is why iceaura cannot objectively define what the category 'Black People' even is

I've been using your definition - whatever it is. The one you use when you claim black people have "inherent" lower IQs than white people, because genetics, and that accounts for all the stuff the sane people on this planet observe as effects of white racism.
And remaining amused at your claims that this hypothetical genetic category of yours does not exist.

If you want a better ID than your guesswork genetics you have never made the least bit rigorous, btw, the pros use self-identification. Because the large majority of those black people in the US who supposedly haven't been affected by white racism have nevertheless discovered that not only do white people see them as black, but this perception has serious implications they need to be aware of.

It's quite clear you're not a Scientist. But, more so, you don't appear to be academically inclined at all. Even a basic argument, like: 1 + 2 = 3, requires that the terms be rigorously defined.

But if you deny that, ( in decimal arithmetic, of course), I'm not going to bother proving it to you every time it comes up, with links and authoritative arguments and so forth. Especially in a thread about "forms of denial", I'm just going to list you among the denialists of arithmetic.

And you're not far from that right now.

Again, who has denied white racism?

Everyone here denying white racism and its effects on black people in the US. You, with your Thomas Sowell links, for example.

Don't you even remember that your own claim was denying white racism as the primary cause for current black outcomes?

Nope. And neither to you.

And where has anyone in this thread denied the Holocaust?

Not in this thread, outside of obvious presumptions. But the guys here trying to make white racism and its effects on black people vanish in front of our eyes all have to some degree and in major aspects. Look up in 229, you can see Michael comparing it to all the deaths of WWII, all the deaths under Stalin's and Mao's regimes, and so forth.

Also climate change, come to think of it. All you guys are AGW deniers as well. So is Thomas Sowell. This pattern is not confined to this forum.

btw: If you are trying to provide evidence that academics like Sowell have lower "inherent" IQs than average white or yellow academics because they are black, his essays on climate change would work better. His personal experience with white racism limits his range on that issue.

And that is the topic of the thread: The Holocaust and other forms of denial. It is kind of interesting how they do in fact collect in individuals - there is no obvious a priori reason why someone who thinks white racism has had no significant effects on black people in the US should also think a 50% boost in the CO2 concentration of the atmosphere can reasonably be predicted to have no large effects on the world's climate, but there it is.

Maybe something to do with IQ?

 

[Syne]

Everyone here denying white racism and its effects on black people in the US. You, with your Thomas Sowell links, for example.

Yet you're not refuting any of those facts.

Not in this thread, outside of obvious presumptions. But the guys here trying to make white racism and its effects on black people vanish in front of our eyes all have to some degree and in major aspects. Look up in 229, you can see Michael comparing it to all the deaths of WWII, all the deaths under Stalin's and Mao's regimes, and so forth.

Also climate change, come to think of it. All you guys are AGW deniers as well. So is Thomas Sowell. This pattern is not confined to this forum.

Where are your refutes of any of those facts?
Are you claiming that everyone killed in WWII was killed in the Holocaust?
Personally, I don't have any problem with AGW, just the paranoid ravings of those who think it is imminently catastrophic.

btw: If you are trying to provide evidence that academics like Sowell have lower "inherent" IQs than average white or yellow academics because they are black, his essays on climate change would work better. His personal experience with white racism limits his range on that issue.

I haven't said a thing about IQ here. But you obviously don't understand the difference between average IQ and a person's individual IQ. Thomas Sowell could be smarter than any white guy....he would just be an extreme outlier. The average woman is weaker than the average man, but that doesn't mean that some woman can't be stronger than some man.

And that is the topic of the thread: The Holocaust and other forms of denial. It is kind of interesting how they do in fact collect in individuals - there is no obvious a priori reason why someone who thinks white racism has had no significant effects on black people in the US should also think a 50% boost in the CO2 concentration of the atmosphere can reasonably be predicted to have no large effects on the world's climate, but there it is.

Except, you've yet to show any evidence of Holocaust denial here, nor any evidence that blacks are still held back by racism. You just keep denying facts and statistics while projecting your own obvious denial on others, ad infinitum.

 

[Bells]

Part A: Postulate a group, which you called 'Black People', without providing ANY means of objectively determining who is, or who is not, a 'Black People'.

You know, one of the most racist things a person can do, is to try to deny the existence of a whole people in this way.

As one of the "black people", can I just say, you and your posts are offensive as fuck.

Racists often use this type of argument, to try to deny institutional racism. What they do not realise is that denying the existence of black people, for example, is as racist as it gets.

Given the historical context and your country's treatment of black people historically and presently, from police brutality to denied access to things like equal education, nutrition, health care, for example, you really have to ask "who is, or who is not a 'black people'".

See, this is what happens when you lie. Holocaust Denier's were correct in their assertion 11 million people did not die, instead of admitting the truth, people like Wiesenthal prefer to lie as a means to justify their unstated goals. In the end, Jews were barely mentioned at the last Holocaust ceremony, because it's now important to 'be inclusive', and remember 'all those' that died (even though they were for the most part - made up).

If you must know, the 11 million murdered is a conservative figure. Recent research suggests that it may be close to 20 million people.

But hey, don't let me stop you on your Holocaust denial spiel. It goes so well with your attempt to deny the existence of "a black people".

 

[Syne]

You know, one of the most racist things a person can do, is to try to deny the existence of a whole people in this way.

As one of the "black people", can I just say, you and your posts are offensive as fuck.

Racists often use this type of argument, to try to deny institutional racism. What they do not realise is that denying the existence of black people, for example, is as racist as it gets.

Given the historical context and your country's treatment of black people historically and presently, from police brutality to denied access to things like equal education, nutrition, health care, for example, you really have to ask "who is, or who is not a 'black people'".

Which one of these are black, Bells?

Neither. They are twins of an interracial couple, but they identify according to their appearance, not their genetics. Is the white-appearing twin racist for not identifying as black? What about Rachel Dolezal or Shawn King? Or are you the racist for pigeonholing people in strictly racial terms?

As far as your boogeyman of institutional racism...you have to identify specific problems with specific individuals if you have ANY interest in addressing an actual (as opposed to imaginary) problem. Do black people lack access to things that poor whites do not? No. Otherwise show proof. Do you refute the facts that blacks were doing far better 100 years after slavery than 30 years after welfare? If so, cite statistics.

Or is all this just a vague cudgel to silence people you cannot intellectually refute?

If you must know, the 11 million murdered is a conservative figure. Recent research suggests that it may be close to 20 million people.

But hey, don't let me stop you on your Holocaust denial spiel. It goes so well with your attempt to deny the existence of "a black people".

Yet the USHMM (the source of that study you cite) still only lists around 6 million Jewish deaths:

Number of Deaths

Jews: up to 6 million

Soviet civilians: around 7 million (including 1.3 Soviet Jewish civilians, who are included in the 6 million figure for Jews)

Soviet prisoners of war: around 3 million (including about 50,000 Jewish soldiers)
- https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10008193​

And all I can find about that study only talks about "20 million people", not 20 million Jews. You know, aside from the fact that in science one study does not establish fact until that study has been verified by others. Either way, the source of that study still only lists around 6 million Jewish deaths, so quit pretending you've caught some anti-Semite red-handed for citing widely accepted figures.

 

[Magical Realist]

Which one of these are black, Bells?

The one with the genetically expressed traits for blackness. Who else?

 

[Michael]

You know, one of the most racist things a person can do, is to try to deny the existence of a whole people in this way.

Some religious people feel the denial of their God or Gods or Space Alien Overlords or their Prophet is also 'racist' or some other trigger-inducing term.

As for denying 'the existence of a whole people', um, perhaps you need to re-read my argument. Oh, nevermind, I'll clearly state it again: "Race" is a subjective experience. If you think you are 'Black' or 'Yellow' or 'White', then that's your subjective experience.

Do you have an objective measurement to categorise people into various 'races'? My niece has a 'black' mother and a 'white' father, is she black or white or are you going in for half-caste? My nephew has a 'black' father and 'white' mother, is he black or white or some other 'race'?

What about Jews? Are they a race? If so, how about Christians? Nordic? Muslims? Races? Or are these subjective experiences?

How about a person who is white yellow jew Buddhist?
Is that a race?

How about Japanese and Chinese? Are they different races? Because if you say 'no', well guess how many billions of people you are "offending"? Is their offence important enough to pretend that Japanese and Chinese are different races?

Did I mention I have met a number of Chinese (while working in China) some think beyond races - they think in terms of 'species'? With Chinese, of course, being a different 'species' than others. This is a matter of fact to them. They don't say it with malice. It's just what they 'believe'. I wonder if I deny their ideology, am I 'denying the existence of an entire people'?

Racists often use this type of argument, to try to deny institutional racism. What they do not realise is that denying the existence of black people, for example, is as racist as it gets.

'Institutional racism'? Oh, really, like in Malaysia and Indonesia where non-Muslim Citizens of Chinese decent are legally prevented from attending University. Or are you referring to the USA, where E. Asians American Citizens are required to score HIGHER than 'Whites' and 'Blacks' to attend University?

Is that what you're referring to? The discrimination against Asian minorities?

Anyway, if you could define 'institutional racism' and provide good evidence, as I just have, perhaps you can better illustrate your point.

 

[iceaura]

I haven't said a thing about IQ here. But you obviously don't understand the difference between average IQ and a person's individual IQ

I do. I'm dealing with guys like you and michael and schmelzer, who don't understand what's wrong with extrapolating from familial inheritance to sociologically defined population inheritance.

Where are your refutes of any of those facts?
Are you claiming that everyone killed in WWII was killed in the Holocaust?

No, michael is the one comparing them. Not me. It's a common aspect of Holocaust denial - treating the Holocaust as if it were similar, in its killings, to the battle and disease and other hardship deaths of war.

As far as refuting facts, I'm not. The facts are what they are. It's the denials that I'm adding up - highlighted by all those silly, convoluted, confused justifications.

Neither. They are twins of an interracial couple, but they identify according to their appearance, not their genetics.

Of course. That's the way race is defined in the US. That's just part of what makes an "inherent average IQ" for "black" people in the US such an obviously ill-considered notion
- and the attempt to use it to deny white racism and its effects on black people in the US such absurd behavior.

Do you have an objective measurement to categorise people into various 'races'?

Of course. Self-identification based on appearance, corroborated by witness agreement based on appearance, in the US. Same way the US black race is defined in the first place. A suitably more rigorous version of what the US Census has done routinely for centuries.

But in this thread, the only measurement necessary is whatever you are using to establish your concept of an "inherent average IQ" possessed by the population of "black" people on the planet earth. I'm using that one, on this thread - sight unseen. I'm confidant it will do.

If you find that difficult to make clear or useful, which would not surprise me, try something simpler - codify the definition being used by the five year olds in this account: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/16/opinion/sunday/only-white-people-said-the-little-girl.html

Anyway, if you could define 'institutional racism' and provide good evidence,

So the DOJ reports on Ferguson didn't cross your field of view?
Or reports - dozens, with Matt Taibbi's maybe first on the list - of the implementation of NYC's "stop and frisk"?
Or the incarceration stats for marijuana possession?
It's what looks like this:
https://www.propublica.org/article/...-car-insurance-premiums-white-areas-same-risk
https://www.propublica.org/article/the-car-insurance-industry-attacks-our-story-our-response

 

[Bells]

Neither. They are twins of an interracial couple, but they identify according to their appearance, not their genetics. Is the white-appearing twin racist for not identifying as black? What about Rachel Dolezal or Shawn King? Or are you the racist for pigeonholing people in strictly racial terms?

How would the US identify the twins, Syne?

As far as your boogeyman of institutional racism...you have to identify specific problems with specific individuals if you have ANY interest in addressing an actual (as opposed to imaginary) problem. Do black people lack access to things that poor whites do not? No. Otherwise show proof. Do you refute the facts that blacks were doing far better 100 years after slavery than 30 years after welfare? If so, cite statistics.

Oh, so you are denying institutional racism?

After all, you are attempting to deny the existence of black people, so of course you will deny that racism occurs.

Let’s start with pre-school. Black pre-schoolers are far more likely to be suspended than white children, NPR reported. Black children make up 18 percent of the pre-school population, but represent almost half of all out-of-school suspensions.

Once you get to K-12, black children are three times more likely to be suspended than white children. Black students make up almost 40 percent of all school expulsions, and more than two thirds of students referred to police from schools are either black or Hispanic, says the Department of Education.

Even disabled black children suffer from institutional racism. About a fifth of disabled children are black – yet they account for 44 and 42 percent of disabled students put in mechanical restraints or placed in seclusion.

When juveniles hit the court system, it discriminates against blacks as well. Black children are 18 times more likely to be sentenced as adults than white children, and make up nearly 60 percent of children in prisons, according to the APA. Black juvenile offenders are much more likely to be viewed as adults in juvenile detention proceedings than their white counterparts.

In the workplace, black college graduates are twice as likely as whites to struggle to find jobs - the jobless rate for blacks has been double that of whites for decades. A study even found that people with “black-sounding names” had to send out 50 percent more job applications than people with “white-sounding names” just to get a call back.

And it gets worse the higher up the pay scale you go. For every $10,000 increase in pay, blacks’ percentages of holding that job falls by 7 percent compared to whites.

The disparities exist in our neighborhoods and communities. About 73 percent of whites own homes, compared to just 43 percent of blacks. The gap between median household income for whites (about $91,000) compared to blacks (about $7,000) is staggering, and that gap has tripled in just the past 25 years. The median net worth of white families is about $265,000, while it was just $28,500 for blacks.

A black man is three times more likely to be searched at a traffic stop, and six times more likely to go jail than a white person. Blacks make up nearly 40 percent of arrests for violent crimes.

Blacks aren’t pulled over (and subsequently jailed) more frequently because they’re more prone to criminal behavior. They’re pulled over much more frequently because there is an “implicit racial association of black Americans with dangerous or aggressive behavior,” the Sentencing Project found.

The numbers get ridiculous in certain parts of the country, the project found. On the New Jersey Turnpike, for instance, blacks make up 15 percent of drivers, more than 40 percent of stops and 73 percent of arrests – even though they break traffic laws at the same rate as whites. In New York City, blacks and Hispanics were three and four times as likely to be stopped and frisked as whites.
​

And on and on it goes..

There are embedded links throughout the article. I am sure you are more than capable of reading the studies attached to these links. So don't ask for this again.

On the issue of institutionalised racism with health and nutrition, for example:

http://thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(17)30569-X/fulltext
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4306458/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3468327/
http://www.asanet.org/sites/default/files/savvy/images/research/docs/pdf/race_ethnicity_health.pdf
http://foodsystems.msu.edu/uploads/...tural-Racism-In-The-US-Food-System-4th-Ed.pdf - This is a list of studies about institutional racism in the food and nutrition industry in the US. It is constantly updated.

And these are just some of the studies out there that not only identify institutional racism, but attempt to address it.

Yet the USHMM (the source of that study you cite) still only lists around 6 million Jewish deaths:
Number of Deaths

Jews: up to 6 million

Soviet civilians: around 7 million (including 1.3 Soviet Jewish civilians, who are included in the 6 million figure for Jews)

Soviet prisoners of war: around 3 million (including about 50,000 Jewish soldiers)
- https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10008193And all I can find about that study only talks about "20 million people", not 20 million Jews. You know, aside from the fact that in science one study does not establish fact until that study has been verified by others. Either way, the source of that study still only lists around 6 million Jewish deaths, so quit pretending you've caught some anti-Semite red-handed for citing widely accepted figures.

Read what I wrote, and then think about it.

I did not say 20 million Jews. Here is what I actually said:

If you must know, the 11 million murdered is a conservative figure. Recent research suggests that it may be close to 20 million people.
​

Care to explain why you misrepresented what I actually said and tried to turn it into something else?

I would really suggest you quit while you are behind.

 

[Syne]

I haven't said a thing about IQ here.

I do. I'm dealing with guys like you and michael and schmelzer, who don't understand what's wrong with extrapolating from familial inheritance to sociologically defined population inheritance.

Again, since this is the first I've said about IQ in this thread, you have zero basis for lumping me in with anyone on the subject. You know, unless you can manage to actually quote something I've said. Instead, it seems you're just exploiting your typical bigoted stereotyping of anyone who doesn't agree with you.
But to your point:

The fact that black immigrants to the United States have shown achievements that are superior to native black Americans has been a phenomenon studied since at least the 1970′s. At first it was just the Caribbean blacks who were a subject of this unexpected outcome. As black Africans kept immigrating into the US, they showed even higher levels of achievement than the native blacks. Many scholars theorized on the reasons for these differences, from Thomas Sowell’s proposal that this disproved the validity of discrimination against native blacks as an explanation for their underachievement (Sowell, 1978), to other scholars who suggested that these immigrants were just the most highly driven members of their home countries as evidenced by their willingness to migrate to a foreign country (Butcher, 1990).
- http://www.unz.com/article/the-iq-gap-is-no-longer-a-black-and-white-issue/​

I believe Micheal already made the exact same argument as Sowell, refuting your nonsense that he failed to distinguish the two. It's actually the difference between genetic and cultural influence that disproves your assertion that white racism is the primary cause of black outcomes.

No, michael is the one comparing them. Not me. It's a common aspect of Holocaust denial - treating the Holocaust as if it were similar, in its killings, to the battle and disease and other hardship deaths of war.

As far as refuting facts, I'm not. The facts are what they are. It's the denials that I'm adding up - highlighted by all those silly, convoluted, confused justifications.

Distinguishing the Jewish deaths due to the Holocaust from the deaths due to war actually keeps those Jewish death from being swept under the rug of WWII deaths. People who fail to make that distinction are the one seeking to gloss over the genocidal motives.
And yet you're still failing to address any of the facts you dismiss, all the while making straw man arguments about trivial things like differentiating Holocaust from war deaths.

Of course. That's the way race is defined in the US. That's just part of what makes an "inherent average IQ" for "black" people in the US such an obviously ill-considered notion
- and the attempt to use it to deny white racism and its effects on black people in the US such absurd behavior.

To be clear, I haven't made any argument about "inherent IQ", and if I did, it would include cultural influence (like negatively associating intelligence with "being white"). But you can't seem to keep your own argument straight. If you're advocating for the difference between genetic and cultural influence, black immigrants prove you wrong, as they are higher achieving than native blacks even living under the same white racism you claim.
[/QUOTE]