If God existed, do our efforts to know God matter?

[wynn]

There is the thread If God existed, how would it be possible for us to know God?

Here is a question parallel to that:

If God existed, do our efforts to know God matter, do they count for anything?

And if yes, how do they matter, how can they be recognized and measured?
If no, why not?



Similarly as in the other thread, for the sake of the argument assume that God exists, this is not a debate on whether God exists or not.

 

[Sarkus]

For the sake of this thread, are we also to assume that we know God exists and that these efforts are merely efforts at knowing God better?
Or are we merely to assume that God exists but that we do not yet know?

 

[Jan Ardena]

Signal,

If God existed, do our efforts to know God matter, do they count for anything?

All effort matters (ultimately) even if it is in the mode of trying to kill God (in the minds).

And if yes, how do they matter, how can they be recognized and measured?
If no, why not?

Vices like greed, lust, and envy, decrease.
People become satisfied with what they have.
Happiness starts to bloom.

jan.





Similarly as in the other thread, for the sake of the argument assume that God exists, this is not a debate on whether God exists or not.[/QUOTE]

 

[wynn]

For the sake of this thread, are we also to assume that we know God exists and that these efforts are merely efforts at knowing God better?
Or are we merely to assume that God exists but that we do not yet know?

The former.

 

[Adstar]

There is the thread If God existed, how would it be possible for us to know God?

Here is a question parallel to that:

If God existed, do our efforts to know God matter, do they count for anything?

And if yes, how do they matter, how can they be recognized and measured?
If no, why not?



Similarly as in the other thread, for the sake of the argument assume that God exists, this is not a debate on whether God exists or not.

Efforts to know God are in vain. But efforts to know Gods will for us is not in vain. Knowing Gods will for us is not the same as knowing God.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[wynn]

Efforts to know God are in vain.

Why?

 

[Adstar]

Why?

For us to know God we would have to be the equal of God.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[wynn]

For us to know God we would have to be the equal of God.

So you (as a theist) do not know God?

If not, how then can you know God's will? How do you know it is indeed God's will that you presume to know, and not someone else's?

 

[Bishadi]

There is the thread If God existed, how would it be possible for us to know God?

Here is a question parallel to that:

If God existed, do our efforts to know God matter, do they count for anything?

Yes.... you understand more of what you are within this existence we know as life.

To comprehend what you are, within existence (God), then you can do right by God (existence) and live longer.

And if yes, how do they matter, how can they be recognized and measured?

the bridge is to comprehend we come from Atoms and Energy, versus adam and eve. What this means is to comprehend the life of mass, as the energy or 'light' of mass, then to see a painting of and aura, each can get an idea of what the old school was talking about; 'we are the light of mass' (life/alive).

A dog is alive and so is a cat but we can comprehend what we are, they can't. (consciousness)

That is what learning about existence (God) is all about. We can comprehend what we are and live longer by knowing that.

Such that we are light upon mass, that can comprehend its existence, of this we can created MORE life by what we do, by choice.

Nothing magical about it!

We can live and know it by fact!


The problem is 2 fold; the truth breaks or is literally a reversal of nature which means, the laws as currently held in physics are incorrect; life is not bound to equlibriate. Second, the idea of mankind being capable of comprehending existence (God) is nothing the religious folk believe can happen, thereby the responsibility 'to pursue that knowledge' is repressed by their own complacent acceptances (paradigm).

So IN FACT; both parties within the pursuit are stymied by their own beliefs.


and that is a Ripley's 'believe it or not'

 

[Adstar]

So you (as a theist) do not know God?

True, but i think you got to understand the gravity of what Word know.

To know is not to have a fair idea, or a pretty good theory about God, to Know God is to Know God and Only God knows God.

If not, how then can you know God's will?

I never said nor have i claimed to know God's will. What i have said is that it is possible to know Gods will for us. So we can know Gods will in relation to us, not about everything else He has a will about.

But even that statement i must add clarity too because we can never be sure we know all Gods will for us as individuals. But we can know Gods will in certain matters regarding us.

We can know Gods will on a matter or matters if God's will is for us to know them. All we can ever know about God's will is what God is willing for us to know.

How do you know it is indeed God's will that you presume to know, and not someone else's?

Time will confirm or refute it. But i am confident that God has revealed His will to me. Not all, but all that He wills me to know at this moment in time.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[wynn]

To Jan Ardena and anyone coming form the Vedic perspective, and anyone else interested:

Efforts to know God are in vain.

What do you make of this?

 

[wynn]

Time will confirm or refute it. But i am confident that God has revealed His will to me.

So it is actually all down to your confidence in your perceptions of God's will for you?

 

[scorpius]

If God existed, do our efforts to know God matter, do they count for anything?

And if yes, how do they matter, how can they be recognized and measured?
If no, why not?
.

I think you need to DEFINE what this God is first.

 

[SnakeLord]

That is what learning about existence (God) is all about. We can comprehend what we are and live longer by knowing that

So the giant tortoise comprehends what it is and therefore lives even longer than us?

 

[lightgigantic]

To Jan Ardena and anyone coming form the Vedic perspective, and anyone else interested:




What do you make of this?

A good way in dealing with this type of suggestion is to replace the word "god" with "president". It highlights the problems.

For instance, to say that to know what/who is the president is not to say that one must be the president (arguably however you could say that no one knows more about the nature of being a president than the president)

In short, there is a point where knowledge becomes practically actionable. This can be quite a distance from complete knowledge on the subject. (for instance how much does one have to know about the president before one can properly contextualize the intent and ramifications of his speech?)

 

[lightgigantic]

There is the thread If God existed, how would it be possible for us to know God?

Here is a question parallel to that:

If God existed, do our efforts to know God matter, do they count for anything?

And if yes, how do they matter, how can they be recognized and measured?
If no, why not?



Similarly as in the other thread, for the sake of the argument assume that God exists, this is not a debate on whether God exists or not.

If one takes that knowledge and action are pretty much the same thing(BG 5.4 & 5 - IOW if one acts in a certain way that brings one to a point of knowledge, and if one knows a certain thing, it is characterized by the ability to act on it), there are six indications to go by

1. relief from all kinds of material distress (puts an end to all activities of ignorance, which ultimately contribute to our common experience of distress)
   
2. beginning of all auspiciousness (enables one to act for the actual benefit of not only one's self but others .... namely to work towards the end of finishing one's business in the material world... as opposed to the standard avenues of altruism etc)
   
3. puts one in transcendental pleasure. (Happiness based on eternal values as opposed to the common fare of the temporal objects .... or even the sometimes more esteemed position of impersonal liberation - namely non-involvement with anything due to a dissolution of one's individuality)
   
4. rarely achieved (because our will and dictate is not the final instrument in the manner)
   
5. deride even the conception of liberation. (while perhaps a noble aim for one under the hammer of conditioned life, ultimately even liberation is a type of selfishness)
   
6. the only means to attract God (since god is the source of all varieties of opulence and quality, even these things in the absence of sincere action are simply another aspect of conditioned life)

 

[SnakeLord]

If one takes that knowledge and action are pretty much the same thing(BG 5.4 & 5 - IOW if one acts in a certain way that brings one to a point of knowledge, and if one knows a certain thing, it is characterized by the ability to act on it), there are six indications to go by
relief from all kinds of material distress

I take it you... have relief from all kinds of material distress? (Otherwise are you not without both action and knowledge and hence.. can't really speak on the subject - well, other than from a position of ignorance?)

 

[lightgigantic]

I take it you... have relief from all kinds of material distress? (Otherwise are you not without both action and knowledge and hence.. can't really speak on the subject - well, other than from a position of ignorance?)

You have a very caricatured understanding of knowledge.

Its the common experience of practically everyone, that knowledge/action comes in degrees, and its not a case of all or nothing.

So in answer to your question to I have relief from all kinds of material distress?
No

But I can say that the frequency and volume of such distress is greatly reduced by such knowledge - namely because the frequency and volume of my actions in ignorance are greatly reduced (... especially when I compare my situation to those who don't act in such knowledge).

 

[SnakeLord]

You have a very caricatured understanding of knowledge

Kindly argue against the argument, not the poster. Thank you.

Its the common experience of practically everyone, that knowledge/action comes in degrees, and its not a case of all or nothing.

Ok. It comes in degrees.

So in answer to your question to I have relief from all kinds of material distress?
No

So you have not acted upon, nor have knowledge that relief from all kinds of material distress actually has any relevance with concerns to gods?

But I can say that the frequency and volume of such distress is greatly reduced by such knowledge

Sorry, what knowledge? The frequency and volume of distress is greatly reduced by knowledge of what?

Sorry, you've lost me. The question was:

If God existed, do our efforts to know God matter, do they count for anything?

And if yes, how do they matter, how can they be recognized and measured?

It was taken as a given that such god existed. Our efforts, (in this case getting rid of "all kinds of material distress"), matters how, can be recognise how and measured how with concerns to knowing gods?

 

[lightgigantic]

Kindly argue against the argument, not the poster. Thank you.

erm I did.

I didn't say something akin to "well this is the sort of claptrap I've come to expect from you"

So you have not acted upon, nor have knowledge that relief from all kinds of material distress actually has any relevance with concerns to gods?

No
I said that I don't have experience of relief from all kinds of distress (because I don't have relief from all kinds of acts of ignorance). IOW conditioned life is characterized by a forgetfulness of god, which opens one up for acts of ignorance and distress etc etc.

I don't have a problem with the statement "I experience relief from many forms of distress" ... especially when I compare my experience to people who don't act on such knowledge.

Sorry, what knowledge? The frequency and volume of distress is greatly reduced by knowledge of what?

Knowledge of god, which makes an act of ignorance distinguishable.

Sorry, you've lost me. The question was:

If God existed, do our efforts to know God matter, do they count for anything?

And if yes, how do they matter, how can they be recognized and measured?

It was taken as a given that such god existed. Our efforts, (in this case getting rid of "all kinds of material distress"), matters how, can be recognise how and measured how with concerns to knowing gods?

If one claims to know god but doesn't experience relief from distress, their knowledge is not perfect.

A text book example is some poster here on sci (can't remember their name at the moment) who used to be an adamant christian, but came back recently to tell everyone that they have thrown in the towel because they simply realized their life was distressful.