If god is superior to us, then why won't he make himself known to us?

[Medicine*Woman]

*************
M*W: I've said before, "if there were a god, he'd make himself known to us." Then the non-believers would have proof of god's existence, and there would be no arguments. That's a simple enough request, I would think. If a god were greater than his creation, seems like he'd give his creation knowledge of his existence. After all, he claims to be a "jealous god." So, withholding that information from us is just not a PC god. It actually shows this god is somewhat inferior to humans. Who needs a god that's inferior? One would expect the creator to be greater than its creation. Therefore, there is no god to speak of.

 

[Yorda]

If god is superior to us, then why won't he make himself known to us?

because it doesn't matter to him if we believe in him or not. he wants us to choose what we believe.

M*W: I've said before, "if there were a god, he'd make himself known to us."

you can't know what god is like because you're not god.

but he will show himself to you if you believe in him.
and if you don't believe, he won't show up.

belief comes first, then comes evidence.

 

[(Q)]

because it doesn't matter to him if we believe in him or not. he wants us to choose what we believe.



you can't know what god is like because you're not god.

but he will show himself to you if you believe in him.
and if you don't believe, he won't show up.

belief comes first, then comes evidence.

So, you believe in god and he has shown himself to you, and you have evidence to support that?

 

[superluminal]

but he will show himself to you if you believe in him.
and if you don't believe, he won't show up.

Just like santa and the elves. Only "santa" shows up even if you haven't been perfect all year long because "santa" actually loves his creations.

Get it?

There is no god. This is a 99.999%+ certainty.

 

[nds1]

belief comes first, then comes evidence.

How can belief come before evidence?

Even the Bible notes that Jesus performed miracles on various occasions so that the people will believe he really is the Son of God.

If some guy walked up to me and told me he was the Son of God, I wouldn't believe him unless he showed supernatural abilities. No one, and let me exaggerate that, NOT ONE PERSON would have believed in Jesus unless he performed some kind of miracle (assuming the existence of Jesus as the Son of God.) God knew that, which is why God commanded Jesus to perform miracles.

Yorda, you have to admit, a human can literally believe in anything. Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, you name it. If humans can imagine it in their minds, they can believe in it.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

because it doesn't matter to him if we believe in him or not. he wants us to choose what we believe.

you can't know what god is like because you're not god.

but he will show himself to you if you believe in him.
and if you don't believe, he won't show up.

belief comes first, then comes evidence.

*************
M*W: How do you know what matters to god? You just said that I "can't know because I'm not god!" Don't you think that's a hair hypocritical of you?

There was a time in my life that I did believe in god, but he did not show himself to me, even after years' of believing.

I do not agree that "belief" comes first before "evidence." A hypothesis comes before a conclusion, but "believing" in something is not "evidence." I believe someday soon I will be rich and thin, but if I'm not doing anything to make it happen, I'm believing a lie and living one as well.

 

[nds1]

I'd be good with a simple pillar of a cloud or a parting of a sea. In the bible, Moses and the Isrealities had the opportunity to see an entire body of water part. If that isn't evidence for God, what is? How is that fair, that God talks to them in a gigantic cloud pillar, but all we have is a book.

Let me guarantee something right now. If I witnessed a man who held out a staff and parted a sea, I would believe in God wirth zero doubt for the rest of my life. You can't rationalize something like that (or feeding 5,000 people with a piece of bread). You can't just say, "Ohhh, that was just a coincidence. Moses got lucky. He held out the staff right when the 9 planets lined up causing the sea to part.

 

[Godless]

If some guy walked up to me and told me he was the Son of God, I wouldn't believe him unless he showed supernatural abilities.

Just imagine if David Copperfield showed tricks to these ancient people, they would believe him to be a son of god too. If he were to claim that he was.

There's zero evidence that a Jesus character ever existed, the one who supposedly did these miracles and all.

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/surfeit.htm

 

[Yorda]

So, you believe in god and he has shown himself to you, and you have evidence to support that?

yeah, but without belief you can't see my evidence, although it's everywhere around you.

How can belief come before evidence?

because mind comes before matter. if scientists don't believe in paranormal things, they will never see them, and even if they see telekinesis in action, they will not believe it, they will just think it's some kind of trick.

Even the Bible notes that Jesus performed miracles on various occasions so that the people will believe he really is the Son of God.

jesus only performed miracles to those who believed in him. those who don't believe will see no signs except the sign of prophet jonah.

jesus healed many people but he said: "your faith has healed you". it's the same with the miracles: people's faith generated them.

If I witnessed a man who held out a staff and parted a sea, I would believe in God wirth zero doubt for the rest of my life.

if 'unbelievers' had seen an airplane 5000 years ago, they would have probably believed in god too.

later in the future we will be able to make that kind of staff and ark of the covenant, but ours will be technological.

moses divided the sea by focusing his thoughts on the staff which was made of matter which could store all kinds of energy and make it stronger.

but because people 5000 years ago couldn't understand this, moses just said that god divided the sea, which is also true.

whenever people see something they've never seen before they call it a miracle, but that 'miracle' is no greater miracle than the human body or airplanes.

M*W: How do you know what matters to god?

i don't.

There was a time in my life that I did believe in god, but he did not show himself to me, even after years' of believing.

i remember you once said you hallucinated about some saint while driving your car.

but remember, the bible says that anyone who sees the face of god will die (and yet moses talked 'face to face' with god). trying to see god is like trying look at the sun...

I believe someday soon I will be rich and thin, but if I'm not doing anything to make it happen, I'm believing a lie and living one as well.

without belief you won't be able to do anything to make your beliefs come true.

 

[nds1]

because mind comes before matter. if scientists don't believe in paranormal things, they will never see them, and even if they see telekinesis in action, they will not believe it, they will just think it's some kind of trick.

If scientists witness a human lifting a car and throwing it one mile with their mind, they would believe.

If scientists witness a human moving a compass dial 1 nanometer because of static electricity, they probably won't believe.

jesus only performed miracles to those who believed in him. those who don't believe will see no signs except the sign of prophet jonah.

Peter, James, and John only followed Jesus because he performed the miracle in which they caught tons of fish. Thomas, an apostle, needed evidence to believe. Many other people believed because they saw. See Below.

if 'unbelievers' had seen an airplane 5000 years ago, they would have probably believed in god too.

later in the future we will be able to make that kind of staff and ark of the covenant, but ours will be technological.

One problem: During Moses' era they did not have this technology. So your argument is irrelevent.

moses divided the sea by focusing his thoughts on the staff which was made of matter which could store all kinds of energy and make it stronger.

but because people 5000 years ago couldn't understand this, moses just said that god divided the sea, which is also true.

Oh, so Moses used his extrordinary telekinesis skills to part the sea. Well that explains it.

whenever people see something they've never seen before they call it a miracle, but that 'miracle' is no greater miracle than the human body or airplanes.

How about raising people from the dead. How about turning 5 loaves of bread into a gigantic 500 Lb. loaf of bread. How about making men born blind see. Sorry Yorda, but telekinesis can't explain this. If I saw a man spit in a blind mans face and then the blind man could see, I would believe. No technology involved there.





____________________________________________________________

John 2:10-11
10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.
KJV

The desciples now believe Jesus is the Son of God because of the wine miracle.

John 4:53
53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.
KJV

This father and his entire family now believes Jesus is the Son of God because of this great miracle.

Luke 5:9-11
9 For he was astonished, and all that were with him, at the draught of the fishes which they had taken:

10 And so was also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men.

11 And when they had brought their ships to land, they forsook all, and followed him.
KJV

Peter, James, and John needed the fish incident in order to follow Jesus.

Luke 7:20-22
20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

21 And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight.

22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.
KJV

John had to be told about Jesus' miracles in order to believe.

John 11:44-45
44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

45 Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.
KJV

If I were one of those many Jews who witnessed Jesus raising a man from the dead who had been dead for four days and was in a tomb, I would also be inclined to believe. Sorry Yorda, but telekinesis can't raise people from the dead.


John 20:24-25
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
KJV

Thomas, an apostle, a true desciple of Jesus, needed evidence to believe. This is an apostle here by the way. Oh yeah, by the way, this is AN APOSTLE. The point is, not even the apostles could believe unless given evidence first. Sorry Yorda.

Matt 9:27-29
27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us.

28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.

29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
KJV

These blind guys said they believed, but guess what: The reason they believed in the first place in because the miracles of Jesus had been being talked about around the whole city. They wouldn't have approached Jesus in the first place, or had any base of "belief," unless they first heard about how great he was and the miracles he performed from people around the town.


So case in point, God told Jesus to perform miracles because no one would belive in Jesus unless those miracles were performed.




Ex 13:20-22
20 And they took their journey from Succoth, and encamped in Etham, in the edge of the wilderness.

21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:

22 He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people.
KJV

A pillar of a cloud and a pillar of fire. Again, hard to belive Moses created these pillars with his incredible telekinesis skills.

 

[Bells]

yeah, but without belief you can't see my evidence, although it's everywhere around you.

I love it when people give this answer to the request for proof.

I don't know whether it is meant to be comforting that some entity is lurking all around me like some stalking peeping Tom, or whether we are meant to be disturbed by the thought. Frankly the thought is not comforting at all.

Tell me Yorda, when you pull up at a set of lights and look at the car next to you and see the driver there with his finger jammed up his nose to the point where only his knuckle is showing, do you think to yourself 'yet, that's evidence of God around me'? I have posed this question to many Christians who have come out with the answer of the evidence of God is all around me and I just need to believe to see it. Not a single one has been able to answer it.

esus only performed miracles to those who believed in him. those who don't believe will see no signs except the sign of prophet jonah.

jesus healed many people but he said: "your faith has healed you". it's the same with the miracles: people's faith generated them.

I have a cousin who believes this. One of her religious friends had her foot accidently run over by the tyre on the car on their way to a prayer meeting. The fact that she was wearing solid closed toed shoes and that the tyre only skimmed the front of the shoe is irrelavent. The embarrassing episode arose when they decided to drive to the hospital emergency room, took up the time of the medical staff into looking after the old lady and stood there praying loudly over her foot while the doctors attempted to see if she had broken anything. When it was found the car had actually missed her foot, but just skimmed over the front of her sturdy shoes, my cousin and her religious friends started screaming hallelujah and it's a miracle. When the doctor attempted to tell them that her foot itself had not been run over, they told him that the miracle was evident to them because they "believed".

I cringe each time I think about what they did. Literally cringe.

but remember, the bible says that anyone who sees the face of god will die (and yet moses talked 'face to face' with god). trying to see god is like trying look at the sun...

My. What a benevolent God you believe in. See his face and he will ensure you die. Sounds like some mafia bosses of old.

 

[nds1]

It does seem that some Christians are sometimes desparate for any sign from God. So desparate that they will latch onto the slightest occurance and claim it was a miracle in order to justify their belief.

True, there have been some amazing health recoveries and phenomenons. I knew a Christian minister who was (so I'm told) on his death bed with cancer. Then, miraculously it disapeared. This is truly an amzing story (among others).

It's just tough because it happened years before I was born and I know how stories can get exaggerated. There is something to be said though about some of these genuine disease recoveries.

 

[TW Scott]

Here is the thing, with proof you cannot believe. No one believes that steel is hard, we know it. No one believes sugar is sweet, we know it. No one believes in gravity, we know all about it. When you have proof of something your capacity to believe in it is gone, it simply becomes knowledge. This is of no use to God.

Imagine if 100% of us had irrefutable proof of God. Suddenly morality would not become a virtue, but a fact of life. The ten commandments would be followed to the letter, not becuase you loved god and you wanted to be a better person, but to avoid punishment. Everything anybody did would be to avoid the damnation of hell, not for love of God, love of man, or anything of the sort.

So now you can see a glimmer of why we are kept in the dark, it seperates the sycopants out.

 

[lightgigantic]

*************
M*W: I've said before, "if there were a god, he'd make himself known to us." Then the non-believers would have proof of god's existence, and there would be no arguments.

being sensitive to our desires, god has created the material world because it has one unique thing that is not available in the spiritual world - namely spiritual life is an option not a necessity.

That's a simple enough request, I would think. If a god were greater than his creation, seems like he'd give his creation knowledge of his existence.

he does give such knowledge - through scriptures and saintly persons - and it is up to our free will whether we will opt to accept them or not

After all, he claims to be a "jealous god." So, withholding that information from us is just not a PC god.

withholding? You don't have access to a scripture?

It actually shows this god is somewhat inferior to humans.

why?

Who needs a god that's inferior?

to be empowered to fulfill materialistic desires, the living entity requires to exist in a medium of forgetfulness of god

One would expect the creator to be greater than its creation. Therefore, there is no god to speak of.

if the average person cannot get on the phone and tell the president "get over here I want to see whether you actually exist or not" its absurd to demand that god doesn't exist because he doesn't reveal himself to persons who are inimical and interested in exploiting his potencies. It undercuts the the foundation that god is actually the master and not merely a labourer in our personal garden of whimsy awaiting our beck and call

 

[Kumar]

If god is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent, why everything and being is not god and so omniscient and omnipotent?

 

[lightgigantic]

If god is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent, why everything and being is not god and so omniscient and omnipotent?

then there would be no distinction between controller and controlled, or energetic and energy.

Just like saying "everyone is the presidet of the USA" is another way of saying "Noone is the president of the USA"

 

[Oniw17]

How can belief come before evidence?

Reason. Not that I believe in any gods.

 

[nds1]

Reason. Not that I believe in any gods.

Exactly. How did someone believe in Jesus's word during the time of Jesus without miracles to back it up? Reason. If it sounded good logically, then the belief comes afterwords.

For example, the teachings of Jesus were unorthodox and went against some of the written "laws" and thinking of the then current religious institutions. The teachings presented in the bible by Jesus do seem to make logical sense. So I'm sure many people belived in Jesus' teachings because of reason and logic intially. Then the miracles simply backed up what he was saying.

If Jesus had preached that you could do whatever you want while on the earth and still get into heaven without ever making sacrifices, then no one would have believed him because it wouldn't have made logical sense.

I'm not a Muslim, nor have I ever been. However, I've always found the story of Muhammad very interesting. Here is a man who had these amazing visions involving the angel Gabriel for a certain number of years in which Gabriel spoke to him directly (according to him). It is very hard for me to believe that Muhammad didn't truly believe that his visions were genuine. I don't think he would have just made them up as a prank or rebellion, especially since he and his family died for their belief in those visions. Now whether those visions were really genuine is another issue. There is no way for anyone to know. But we do know that Muhammad believed what he saw, or experienced.

The same could be said of the Bible. I don't think the apostles would have simply made up the character of Jesus. They too died for their beliefs.

Here is the thing, with proof you cannot believe.

"Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe."
- Thomas, an Apostle

If you can't believe with proof, then everyone who witnessed a miracle of Jesus couldn't believe (including Thomas, Peter, James, John, and all the other apostles.) All those Israelites who saw the unbeliveable things Moses did cannot believe (turn a staff into a snake, make bread fall from the sky, part an ENTIRE BODY OF WATER, make water come out of a rock by simply talking to the rock). Not to mention the huge pillar of a cloud and pillar of fire they saw.

See the verses I posted above in which Jesus performed miracles and people believed because of them.

To me, the word "proof" in terms of proving a God includes seeing something occur visibly which cleary, and I exaggerate CLEARLY, defies the laws of nature. Also, a genuine vision could serve as proof. I would say it has to be a "Paul-Damascus" type vision in which someone is awake and conscious and a spiritual being or God speaks to them audibly.

To your point though TW Scott, it would seem odd if God came down and made a State of the Union speech every year. You are right, some people may serve him out of fear of going to hell.

 

[Sarkus]

The teachings presented in the bible by Jesus do seem to make logical sense.

Common sense is not necessarily logic. While they are often similar, logic is colder.

So I'm sure many people belived in Jesus' teachings because of reason and logic intially. Then the miracles simply backed up what he was saying.

Unfortunately "miracles" and logic do not mix.
One can not be logical / rational and believe in the miracles, as there is ALWAYS a more rational explanation.

To me, the word "proof" in terms of proving a God includes seeing something occur visibly which cleary, and I exaggerate CLEARLY, defies the laws of nature.

Please provide evidence that such things do happen or have ever happened, without recourse to the Bible, with clear evidence that it is a nature-defying event rather than a more rational explanation.

Also, a genuine vision could serve as proof.

Define "genuine"?
Who is the one to differentiate the "genuine" vision from merely an hallucination?

 

[Sarkus]

If you can't believe with proof, then everyone who witnessed a miracle of Jesus couldn't believe.

His point is that once something has been proven then there is no need for belief - as it is now factual rather than requiring of belief.