In vain?

[Cyperium]

This is directed at Christians:

Are our discussions with atheists in vain?

The Bible say that we shouldn't discuss that much cause it may split us apart.

But it also say that by discussion can one know a person.

People, including myself, has put their souls into what they say in a attempt to make atheists understand, but instead of giving arguments to them, isn't it wiser to give arguments to yourself?

You are the only one (except God) that knows the full meaning of what you say (though maybe the ones that share your oppinion do), so if you let that out to others then they may very well weaken you.

The Bible advices us to not open up our hearts to whomever walks by, you don't know what he will do to you. You must test them before you do that.

Maybe someone will understand, but I feel for the most part that it is in vain.

Preaching is another story though, but a discussion of "I'm right, you're wrong" is (to my view) more waste of time.

 

[Cris]

Look not to convince others that you are right and they are wrong but instead use your arguments to reassure yourself that your perpective is correct and that if correct then it will outlast any opposition. However, if in your own mind your arguments are not reassuring then you should be brutally honest with yourself and re-assess your perspective.

Spoken from the perspective of a Christian from 30+ years ago who woke up and faced reality.

 

[Enigma'07]

Are our discussions with atheists in vain?

Sometimes it may seem like that, and if their whole point is to argue for the sake of argueing, it probably is. But, we as Christians also have the duty to present what we believe to other people whether they accept it or not. I don't really know. I gues I like participatng in some of the discusstions because it gives me a heads up to the stuff people have skeptisisms about, and its helpful for witnessing to people face to face. God also mentions that He hardens some people's hearts, and at that rate, it would be more effective to pray for the person as you discuss with them that God might soften their heart. Make sense?

 

[Godless]

Are our discussions with atheists in vain?

Resistance is futile we will assimilate you! GROW UP!!

People, including myself, has put their souls into what they say in a attempt to make atheists understand, but instead of giving arguments to them, isn't it wiser to give arguments to yourself?

Ah!! infidel, your very heart and mind directs you to logic and reason, it's not us that needs to understand anything, "we've already been christians, catholics, babtists, muslims, etc. of religious dogman." we understand more than what you give us credit for, we've been "enlighten" by reality, reason and logic. It is you that has doubts when disscussing with us, you've rarely see an atheist have doubts about his/her's lack of religious convictions.

You are the only one (except God) that knows the full meaning of what you say (though maybe the ones that share your oppinion do), so if you let that out to others then they may very well weaken you.

If you are "weaken" by others, then your own religious convictions are not as solid as you claim them to be, if you are weaken by any postion that you may uphold wether atheism, theist of any denomination, then it is YOU that needs to revelaute your convictions.

Maybe someone will understand, but I feel for the most part that it is in vain.

Truly I dont feel in vain, for your failed attempts, nor do I feel in vain for mine, to make you see reason, logic, reality, without fantasy.

Sometimes it may seem like that, and if their whole point is to argue for the sake of argueing, it probably is.

It is not that we argue just to argue, it is that a rational mind, that uses logic & reason to comprehend reality, does not use irrational, ilogical assertions to explain reality.

But, we as Christians also have the duty to present what we believe to other people whether they accept it or not.

And aren't we glad this is so!! today, that we are not prosecuted, comdemned, and exterminated as in your Christian past!! Aren't we lucky that we live today in a FREE SOCIETY that does not live by religious dogma, to prosecute non believers.?

God also mentions that He hardens some people's hearts, and at that rate, it would be more effective to pray for the person as you discuss with them that God might soften their heart. Make sense?

It is not that the "mythical heart" is harden, it is that we know the heart to be an organ that only pumps blood, its our BRAIN that we use to know reality, it's not our whims, wishes, and fantasy, that helps us explain reality.

Godless.

 

[Leo Volont]

This is directed at Christians:

Are our discussions with atheists in vain?

The Bible say that we shouldn't discuss that much cause it may split us apart.

But it also say that by discussion can one know a person.

People, including myself, has put their souls into what they say in a attempt to make atheists understand, but instead of giving arguments to them, isn't it wiser to give arguments to yourself?

You are the only one (except God) that knows the full meaning of what you say (though maybe the ones that share your oppinion do), so if you let that out to others then they may very well weaken you.

The Bible advices us to not open up our hearts to whomever walks by, you don't know what he will do to you. You must test them before you do that.

Maybe someone will understand, but I feel for the most part that it is in vain.

Preaching is another story though, but a discussion of "I'm right, you're wrong" is (to my view) more waste of time.

I am guessing you are still young. With more life experience you might realize that it often takes years for a convincing argument to finally convince. Hitting an intelligent person with a good argument is like planting a Seed. Sometimes it takes decades before someone finally realizes that you were 'right'.

Yes, the Scriptures are full of contradictory advice regarding arguing with strangers. Some Old Testament Prophet mouths off in a Bar and gets his butt kicked, and the next day while nursing a hangover and a black eye waxes profound on how one should mind one's own business. But without Argument the Moral Vision of the World could never hope to ever Improve. Concensus must be established through Argument.

 

[water]

Cyperium,


If anything, I am an agnostic. And when I am approached by religious people, the message I get is: "You, Rosa, are not good enough for me if you don't think the way I do."

I try to be stoic, I try to listen inspite of having my personal value doubted like this -- but I am getting seriously tired of this.

Yes, you are arguing in vain, if you are approaching the other person as if they were worth less than you because they don't think the same way you do.

 

[Adstar]

This is directed at Christians:

Are our discussions with atheists in vain?

I take it you mean a waste of time when we talk to atheists who will never accept the Messiah Jesus. Well it is a complete waste of time for the atheists who will never accept. But the thing is we do not know every atheists future do we? So we should share the Message of Jesus to everyone irrespective of our own personal assessment on the likelihood of their acceptance or not of the Love of the truth.

The Bible say that we shouldn't discuss that much cause it may split us apart.

Do you have the scripture for this?

But it also say that by discussion can one know a person.

Do you have the scripture for this?

People, including myself, has put their souls into what they say in a attempt to make atheists understand, but instead of giving arguments to them, isn't it wiser to give arguments to yourself?

Well the thing is that we do not think of all the arguments do we? The good thing about getting arguments from atheists is that they will give you all the arguments that you have not thought of. This prompts one to seek answers to those arguments when those answers are found ones faith is strengthened. The more ones faith is challenged the more one has to concentrate on finding out more about their faith those who are challenged are refined.

You are the only one (except God) that knows the full meaning of what you say (though maybe the ones that share your oppinion do), so if you let that out to others then they may very well weaken you.

If they can weaken you then that means your faith is not that strong anyway. And it is best to put oneself to the test to find out how solid your faith is because if we find out we are weak then it will give us the motivation to get into the Word seriously.

The Bible advices us to not open up our hearts to whomever walks by, you don't know what he will do to you. You must test them before you do that.

Well once again you have not provided any scripture. The one that pops to my mind is this.

Matthew 7:6
"Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

There comes a point in any discussion where we have to make a decision to cease discussion when our hearts tell us that our attempts to give the Message of salvation has come to no effect upon the one we are sharing it with. It is truly vanity and a great waste of time fir us to continue to strive with one who will not hear. We can lead them to water but we cannot make them drink.

Maybe someone will understand, but I feel for the most part that it is in vain.

I know how demoralizing it can be when the message is rejected and how saddening it is when the person we are reaching out for has found a place in our hearts. But remember it is our calling to be the givers of the message we are not commanded to be successful givers, We are to give it our best shot and leave the rest to the conviction of the Holy Spirit upon those who are hearing the Message. I know that a lot of Christians take it upon themselves to be personally responsible for the success or otherwise in the outcome of their efforts to reach out to the lost. But this is wrong, we are not responsible for ensuring the Message is received. We are only responsible to see that the Message is offered in the best way we can.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Cyperium]

Cris:

Look not to convince others that you are right and they are wrong but instead use your arguments to reassure yourself that your perpective is correct and that if correct then it will outlast any opposition. However, if in your own mind your arguments are not reassuring then you should be brutally honest with yourself and re-assess your perspective.

Spoken from the perspective of a Christian from 30+ years ago who woke up and faced reality.

I wouldn't disagree with that. But I don't think it matters that you were a Christian for 30 years, it doesn't make your arguments more solid to me. People can still get lost no matter how long they have been on the right way. But I guess that you'd rather say that you found the right way, but that's just because we believe different things. But surely you allready understand that, so why are there so much disagreement if we understand eachother?

Enigma'07:

Sometimes it may seem like that, and if their whole point is to argue for the sake of argueing, it probably is. But, we as Christians also have the duty to present what we believe to other people whether they accept it or not. I don't really know. I gues I like participatng in some of the discusstions because it gives me a heads up to the stuff people have skeptisisms about, and its helpful for witnessing to people face to face. God also mentions that He hardens some people's hearts, and at that rate, it would be more effective to pray for the person as you discuss with them that God might soften their heart. Make sense?

Actually I don't think there are that many differences between our way of arguing and their way.

...mostly because there are no "our" way and "their" way, there are ways for different people, not different religions, at least when it comes to discussion. But people want to put labels, and they expect someone with a certain label to behave in a certain way (which can actually make christians (for example) to behave in that way), but God's message maybe could be preached no matter what personality you have, and thus it shouldn't matter if you have a label on you that you try to behave after.

~this isn't directed at you personaly Enigma, just expressing some things that I've found.

I understand your point, it's sometimes good to know how they perceive things. But all atheist doesn't perceive things the same way, and thus what you get to know from one atheist may not relate to another atheist. But of course atheists have things in common, but their reasons differ, I sure hope you find a way, but remember, if you do, you can't change people as a regular basis. It doesn't work that way, you can change yourself, and put an end to arguments within yourself that isn't good. Actually I think, that if there are many different ideas within you, you should pray to God that He helps you order these ideas, so that they don't interfer that much with your everyday life. As I said in some previous post "we should rest in our belief".

Don't take me wrong, I don't mean anything wrong with this.

Godless:

Resistance is futile we will assimilate you! GROW UP!!

Grow up?

Ah!! infidel, your very heart and mind directs you to logic and reason, it's not us that needs to understand anything, "we've already been christians, catholics, babtists, muslims, etc. of religious dogman." we understand more than what you give us credit for, we've been "enlighten" by reality, reason and logic. It is you that has doubts when disscussing with us, you've rarely see an atheist have doubts about his/her's lack of religious convictions.

I realise that atheist can come from vastly different scenarios in life. But atheist often do show a nature of not understanding. Or they do that because of other reasons, whatever they may be. If they suggest in some way that they don't understand then naturally theists will feel a need to make their point to them. Otherwise what's the point of discussion?

If you are "weaken" by others, then your own religious convictions are not as solid as you claim them to be, if you are weaken by any postion that you may uphold wether atheism, theist of any denomination, then it is YOU that needs to revelaute your convictions.

No need to point fingers.

Because of the nature of Faith, we can be weakend when someone shows no faith at all, or a total disrespect in our beliefs (like your alias "godless").

Truly I dont feel in vain, for your failed attempts, nor do I feel in vain for mine, to make you see reason, logic, reality, without fantasy.

We see reason, logic and reality. We can see it as clear as you do without fantasy. I don't believe God is a fantasy.

Leo Volont:

I am guessing you are still young. With more life experience you might realize that it often takes years for a convincing argument to finally convince. Hitting an intelligent person with a good argument is like planting a Seed. Sometimes it takes decades before someone finally realizes that you were 'right'.

Yes, I understand that. I've seen it myself, and have experianced it myself. I'm 22 years old...I've had alot of different experiances in my life. Though I guess with older age comes experiance that is far greater than mine.

RosaMagika:

Cyperium,


If anything, I am an agnostic. And when I am approached by religious people, the message I get is: "You, Rosa, are not good enough for me if you don't think the way I do."

I don't think that way.

I try to be stoic, I try to listen inspite of having my personal value doubted like this -- but I am getting seriously tired of this.

I don't doubt your value.

Yes, you are arguing in vain, if you are approaching the other person as if they were worth less than you because they don't think the same way you do.

I'm no greater than you. The Bible teaches us that we are all sinners, so they shouldn't think that they are greater than you either. Maybe they follow pride? Christianity doesn't preach pride. I really hope you can do something to set them straight. It's sad to hear that you have seen this behaviour in christians.

I honestly think that it's sad.

Adstar:

I take it you mean a waste of time when we talk to atheists who will never accept the Messiah Jesus. Well it is a complete waste of time for the atheists who will never accept. But the thing is we do not know every atheists future do we? So we should share the Message of Jesus to everyone irrespective of our own personal assessment on the likelihood of their acceptance or not of the Love of the truth.

I agree.

Do you have the scripture for this?

2 Tim 2:14 Remind people of these things and charge them before God to stop disputing about words. This serves no useful purpose since it harms those who listen.

In my Swedish Bible the nearest translation would be:

"Remind everyone of this and [charge them before God] to not discuss. It doesn't bring any good but becomes devestating to the listeners".

But when I read this, it seem to relate to discussions christian to christian and not christan vs. atheist. Thus I'm sad to say that I might be wrong to say that it's wrong to discuss.

But I remember reading about it in a different context than that of 2 timotheos.

I will provide scriptures from now on.

Something else that also has to do with discussing:

Eph 4:29
"Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers."

“
But it also say that by discussion can one know a person.
”
Do you have the scripture for this?

The Swedish Bible (Bible 2000) has a book which I haven't found in your english Bible. It's called "Jesus Syraks Vishet" (in english; "Jesus Syraks Wisdom"), in this book Syr 27:7 it tells us "do not praise a man before you have heard him discuss, cause it is by discussion a man is tested".

In the same book, syr 6:7, "If you want a friend, test him first and don't give your trust at once".

Well the thing is that we do not think of all the arguments do we? The good thing about getting arguments from atheists is that they will give you all the arguments that you have not thought of. This prompts one to seek answers to those arguments when those answers are found ones faith is strengthened. The more ones faith is challenged the more one has to concentrate on finding out more about their faith those who are challenged are refined.

Yes, but there are hidden things that most of us don't understand, and it's easy to make up your own explanation and thus wander away from truth. Sometimes it may be legitimate to make a interpretation of something, based on the scriptures, but way too often this goes out of hand, and the interpretation don't allways become true to the scripture which is interpreted.

Sometimes we have a feeling of what the truth is, but we don't have words to express it, thus we may resort to lies in a attempt to show people what we feel is true. Though the truth must be approached using the truth. You can't come to the truth using lies.

These are dangers with discussing.

If they can weaken you then that means your faith is not that strong anyway. And it is best to put oneself to the test to find out how solid your faith is because if we find out we are weak then it will give us the motivation to get into the Word seriously.

What do you mean by getting into the Word?

Well once again you have not provided any scripture. The one that pops to my mind is this.

Matthew 7:6
"Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

There comes a point in any discussion where we have to make a decision to cease discussion when our hearts tell us that our attempts to give the Message of salvation has come to no effect upon the one we are sharing it with. It is truly vanity and a great waste of time fir us to continue to strive with one who will not hear. We can lead them to water but we cannot make them drink.

The scripture is again, from the Swedish Bible 2000, Jesus Syraks Vishet (Jesus Syraks Wisdom), and it is as follows:

Syr 8:19 (my own translation from Swedish to English):
"Don't show your inner self to whomever, for that you only get ingratitude".

Also Syr 8:18
"Don't deal with secrets in a strangers presence, you don't know what he can cause".

I know how demoralizing it can be when the message is rejected and how saddening it is when the person we are reaching out for has found a place in our hearts. But remember it is our calling to be the givers of the message we are not commanded to be successful givers, We are to give it our best shot and leave the rest to the conviction of the Holy Spirit upon those who are hearing the Message. I know that a lot of Christians take it upon themselves to be personally responsible for the success or otherwise in the outcome of their efforts to reach out to the lost. But this is wrong, we are not responsible for ensuring the Message is received. We are only responsible to see that the Message is offered in the best way we can.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I agree. Something I myself must work on is providing scriptures...

 

[Adstar]

Hello Cyperman

2 Tim 2:14 Remind people of these things and charge them before God to stop disputing about words. This serves no useful purpose since it harms those who listen.

In my Swedish Bible the nearest translation would be:

"Remind everyone of this and [charge them before God] to not discuss. It doesn't bring any good but becomes devestating to the listeners".

But when I read this, it seem to relate to discussions Christian to Christian and not Christian vs. atheist. Thus I'm sad to say that I might be wrong to say that it's wrong to discuss.

But I remember reading about it in a different context than that of 2 timotheos.

I will provide scriptures from now on.

Something else that also has to do with discussing:

Eph 4:29
"Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers."

2 Timothy 2 NKJV
14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. 15Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

This is the bible i read i have quoted 2 timothy 2:14-18 to give verse 14 some context. Do you see in verses 16 to 18 it is talking of people bearing false witness to Jesus. for me this is not talking about Christian/athiest discussions but it is talking about discussions between true and false Christians.


Ephesians 4NKJV
25 Therefore, putting away lying, "Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor," for we are members of one another. 26"Be angry, and do not sin": do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27nor give place to the devil. 28Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need.29Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.

Once again the context gives more definition to the verse in question. I believe this verse is for all discussions between us and all others. The Word "neighbor" give me that belief. (Good Samaritan parable)

As i said before if we are to contend with another over the Word (Message of Jesus/bible) and we believe that there is no prospect of agreement being reached that the discussion has no prospect of being profitable to either side. then discussions should end at once.

2 Timothy 2 NKJV
14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers.

Can you see that to strive when profit is still a prospect is good while continuing to strive for no profit is wrong?

The Swedish Bible (Bible 2000) has a book which I haven't found in your english Bible. It's called "Jesus Syraks Vishet" (in english; "Jesus Syraks Wisdom"),

I do not have this book in my bibles. i have the KJV (King James Version) and the NKJV (Knew King James Version) So whatever the "Jesus Syraks Wisdom" books says i really cannot comment on it.

Yes, but there are hidden things that most of us don't understand, and it's easy to make up your own explanation and thus wander away from truth. Sometimes it may be legitimate to make a interpretation of something, based on the scriptures, but way too often this goes out of hand, and the interpretation don't always become true to the scripture which is interpreted.

Sometimes we have a feeling of what the truth is, but we don't have words to express it, thus we may resort to lies in a attempt to show people what we feel is true. Though the truth must be approached using the truth. You can't come to the truth using lies.

These are dangers with discussing.

Yes Cyperium. what you have said here is very wise. many cannot bring themselves to say these words when discussing the bible "i do not know". There is no shame in saying that. No body knows it all, but some feel the need to give an explanation at all costs.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts in a edifying way Cyperium

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[§outh§tar]

Tell me more about this Jesus Syraks Wisdom..

 

[Cyperium]

Tell me more about this Jesus Syraks Wisdom..

It's very similar to Proverbs, I'll write here some scriptures that I think are good:

First chapter of "Jesus Syraks Wisdom" - it's called in the swedish bible as "The origin of wisdom":
Syr 1:1-10
All wisdom comes from God and is with Him forever.
Who can count the sand in the sea, the drops of rain and the days of eternity?
Who can explore the height of the heaven, the width of the earth and the depth of the sea?
Before everything else wisdom was made; thought and insight is forever.

For whom has the root of wisdom been exposed?
Who knows it's ingenious plans?
One only is wise. Vast and terrible He sits on His throne: The Lord.
He Himself created wisdom and saw at it, measured it and poured it over all His creations.
Everything that lives has a part of this gift, in rich amounts has it been given to those who love Him.

Syr 2:17-18
..., those that love Him make themselves ready and bow themselves humble before Him:
"Let us fall into Gods hands and not in human hands, cause as limitless as His greatness is His mercy"

Syr 3:21-24
Don't ask about things that is beyond your understanding, don't research what is beyond your power.
Think of the commandments that have been given to you; what is hidden to you doesn't concern you.
Don't waste energy on what is beyond your task; what you have seen is allready more than humans can understand.
For many people have gone lost by their speculations, and harmful fantasies has confused their judgement.

Syr 4:5-6
Don't turn your face away from the one that begs for money [or food], don't give him reason to curse you, cause if he curses you in the bitterness of his soul, then then his creator shall hear his prayer.

---This is about how wisdom teaches a man:
Syr 4:17-19
Cause first she lead him to curvy roads, and let him feel anxiety and terror and gives him no rest with her heavy-handed teaching until he trusts her completly.
She tests him with her demands, but then she goes straight to him, gives him joy and gives him her secrets.
But if he looses his way because he is tempted, she will abandon him for ruin.

--More about wisdom:
Syr 6:20-22
How hard to handle isn't wisdom to the man which has no upbringing!
The thoughtless can't deal with her.
She becomes a far too heavy stone to lift, and soon he let's go of her.
Cause wisdom earns it's reputation, it is not available to all.

Syr 8:10
Don't blow at the ember of the sinner, you can get swallowed by his flaming fire.

Syr 9:10
Don't abandon an old friend, a new one is not the same.
A new friend is like a new wine:
First after it has matured you drink it pleasently.

Syr 9:13
Keep your distance from them who has the power to kill, so you don't have to fear for your life. And if you come closer to him, don't do any mistakes cause then he will kill you. You should know that you are walking amongst traps and that you move on the crest of the citywall.



If you like to hear more, please post and I'm happy to provide it to you.