Originally posted by Hoth
All thinking is material, intelligence can be explained by physical processes in the brain.
Okay, so I am not going to put my hand in the fire, because I do not wish to experience the pain of being burned.
Simple example, but it encases everything to do with what we are discussing.
Firstly, I am aware of the fire, I can see that it is fire, I can feel that it is fire, if it was nice warm water, my awareness would be different. Secondly I am aware of my hand, skin, and the relationship with fire, these are not thoughts, they are experiences, which I have had, which someone else has had, or by understanding through some medium such as books, TV, radio, etc. So they are knowledge according to my consciousness.
Then the thought kicks in, can I be benifited in any way by being burned, is it to my advantage. I make the decision, no. How did I come to that decision, through my intelligence.
All this happens in a flash.
An animals intelligence would be controlled by its instinct of fear, which is nature, a child, whose consciousness is still in its development stage, may put his hand in the fire. This is because the child has no knowledge, as yet, and is clearly unable to make such decisions. But, having put his hand in the fire, and feel the terrible pain, the experience will profoundly alter his consciousness, which is responsible for our thoughts, awareness and intelligence.
You can see how this works in government, the government acquires secret knowledge through its intelligence agency. 1) That does not mean the president (soul) personally goes to find out. He simply issues the order, and then everything starts to move accordingly. 2) No matter what the intelligent sources acquire, the final decision rests with the pres. (soul) 3) Having made a decision, he makes his intention (mind) known to the rest of the government (body), and they carry them out, as per instructed. 4) Within the government is a very important part, the cabinet or the advisors, this is like the brain. Once the president decides what he is going to do, he then consults his brain, this may include scientists, occultists, top ranking generals, psycologists, spin doctors, the list could go on and on, it is their duty to formulate his ideas in the best way possible, but whoever he chooses, will be his choice. 5) Once a strategy has been formed, it is presented to the lower levels of the body of the government and so on and so forth. But everything is coming from the person at the top of this formation. In the same way, you, the soul, is responsible for everything you do, your body has no responsibility. If that was the case, prisons would be inundated with dead people.
Where I think you are mistaken, is that you think all these events are separate to our selves, and do not realise that you are the soul, you are the predominating diety within your bodily structure. It is because of you, that your body moves, not that the body is independent of you.
The awareness needn't do anything but be aware... there's nothing left for it to do, in fact, since the brain is capable of everything else expcept the actual awareness of thought.
By your very own analysis, I fail to see how you could have come to this conclusion, thereby accepting it as knowledge.
The only reason that a non-thinking perspective of observation seems like such a strange concept to people is that we're too used to associating awareness with thought.
In order to be aware, you, at some stage have to think. I see thought as communication, between the different aspects of you whole self. It is far more subtle than speech, which accounts for its speed, it communicates with the mind in the form of mostly desire, among other things which in turns directs the nature of your thoughts to your senses. For example if you are hungry, your body will desire food, but your thoughts do not desire food, they are free to wander anywhere, yet they may not be able to do anything but think of food, because your mind is overwhelmed with the desire for food. All this activity happens because you are conscious, but that consciousness is aloof to all the struggle that is going on. We can observe this, by analysing someone who can go without food for extremely long periods of time, ie; mystic yogis, without feeling the pangs of hunger.
The reason they are able to achieve this, is because they have learned to control the mind, which is the centre (according to vedic literature) of all the senses, so by controlling the mind they control most of their desire, and the body becomes like a servant to them, in this state their intelligence becomes clear and reveals to them, that which their consciousness dictates.
since thought is what we're aware of.
What about abstract thought, inspiration, we aren’t necessarily aware of those, they just pop right into our head.
We're too used to ignoring the observed/observer distinction, so we don't normally realize that none of the actual awareness we have is thought, but rather the awareness is of thought.[/I]
To use a similar one, a computer without a program to run does nothing... and a program without a computer to run on also does nothing.
And without a person to right the program…..?????
From there you ask "I observe my thoughts, so who am I that I have come to possess these thoughts?"
To ask this question, one must first ponder or think about the situation or experience that has arised, which made one ask the question in the first place. Or in other words thoughts must precede question, otherwise the question could quite possibly have no meaning, thoughtless.
This can be answered by saying you are a soul. However, where I have a problem is when you try to say that you can have awareness of that soul, and you seem to arbitrarily ignore the question of "I observe my soul, so who am I that I have come to possess this soul?”
You are quite right, weare the soul, but upon contact with material nature, we have forgotten that.
So the Supreme Soul, of whom we are part and parcel, distributes teachings (religion), that if we, even begin, to follow, can observe that we are the soul not the body, and regain the proper heirachy of the whole body, while in this life, and hopefully return to our natural state of knowledge, bliss and eternity.
That’s why I don’t believe in anything being self-aware, as you’re saying the soul is self-aware. If you can observe the universal soul, who are you to have come to possess that universal soul?
I don’t say the soul is a separate but integral part of the bodily structure, I say the mind, brain,and body, in that order are integral parts, but the soul ‘is’ the person, is you.
Love.
Jan Ardena.
