Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Write4U, Sep 8, 2018.

  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Thank you CC, for that excellent analysis. So much material for research..... I love it!
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  3. Contemplation Registered Senior Member

    This stinks of sock puppetry! A staunch particle physicist would say that particles are both equally particles and waves. This defies all common sense, but under the Copenhagen Interpretation there are many experimental proofs that also defy common sense. We have to develop a new type of common sense to understand it.

    The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle allows a particle to act both like a particle and a wave. To understand this, we must develop a new type of common sense that is a relativistic understanding. Richard Feynman claimed that quantum mechanics was a Lorentz Invariant theory, but he was never actually able to prove this, because time is taken out of the equation. It is actually the act of observation that determines the most probable speed and position of a particle.

    The problem started after Einstein published The Special Theory of Relativity in his 1905 paper, On the Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies.

    The problem was that for values where the velocity approaches the speed of light, the theory approaches either zero or infinity. This became a problem when physicists first started attempting to describe particles from the idea of their being an atomos or smallest part of matter, considering the equivalence of energy and matter; given E = m c^2.

    Heisenberg found the solution to this problem by developing the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. It allows particle physicists to establish a mathematical framework where they are able to describe both particles and energy that travels at speeds close to or equal to the speed of light. It is the most fundamental basis of the standard model of quantum physics. The name stared out as quantum mechanics, since it started out being described as a mechanical system that only deals in probabilities.

    The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle actually works by telling us what is the most probable speed and location of a particle at a particular time, due to the act of observation. The higher degree of certainty that an observation determines the speed, the less likely the position can be determined, and vice versa.

    - Conclusion

    The new type of common sense we need to develop is assuming that an observation could potentially measure a particle on the Plank Scale. The particles speed would have the highest degree of uncertainty and the amount of energy would be infinite. It would be as though the particle existed at every moment along it’s world line at once. The total energy of a particle traveling at the speed of light can only be conserved if the size of the system is infinite. It would interact with everything along its world line at once from its own reference frame. It would be limited only by the Pauli Exclusion Principle, since particles are not able to occupy the same space, where particles are limited by the Pauli Exclusion Principle and energy is not.

    Once a particle acquires mass, it no longer travels the speed of light. The amount of quantum uncertainty due to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle decreases, and the probable speed and position of a particle can be determined with a higher degree of accuracy. Since it is impossible to literally imagine everything being zero and infinite at the same time, common sense would dictate that we would have to think about quantum mechanics at speeds, at least, slightly less than the speed of light or with some small value of mass.

    It is impossible for an infinite amount of energy to exist at one location. It would create a black hole.

    The Plank Scale can never be measured. - Max Plank
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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Continuing our discovery

    DNA origami boosts electrochemical biosensor performance

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    Modular and programmable DNA origami tiles can bind to DNA sequences (red). The resulting complexes amplify the electrochemical signal. Credit: Petteri Piskunen, Aalto University

    and continuing..

    DNA origami to scale-up molecular motors
    The microtubule network contracting in the presence of DNA origami, kinesins, and ATP. (Matsuda K. et al., Nano Letters, April 30, 2019)

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    Mixing DNA-modified microtubules, DNA origami and kinesin linkers leads to star-like formations of microtubules that are connected by kinesin linkers. This network contracted dynamically when ATP energy was added. (Matsuda K. et al., Nano Letters, April 30, 2019)
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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Wow, Are you suggesting there is not something more fundamental than particles?

    When we speak of conscious thought we are not talking about particles. We are talking about "tronium", like "perceptronium".

    This Physicist Says Consciousness Could Be a New State of Matter
    PHYSICS15 September 2016

    Visualize a cube and a sphere of the same volume. In addition to there exact physical properties, what is the difference afforded by each mathematical pattern?

    A sphere has the emergent ability to roll on a very slight incline, whereas a cube actually has the emergent ability to resist rolling on a steeply slanted surface. i.e. a sphere possess rolltronium, whereas the cube possess statitronium (or something like it) and each ability is based on their respective mathematical patterns.

    In the case of perceptronium, does it need to rely on a specific pattern or could it be an emergent property of sheer quantity of connected data processors?

    When we build AI, why do we strive for quantity of ..........

    GPT-4 can solve difficult problems with greater accuracy, thanks to its broader general knowledge and problem solving abilities.

    GPT-4 Number of Parameters
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2023
  8. Contemplation Registered Senior Member

    Yes, the work to solve this problem probably already has been done before. No new science may even be needed. The microtubules may just be acting like springs, like you mention in your previous post. They may actually just be measuring the ponderomotive force.

    This is also discussed in section 10 of Einstein’s 1905 paper.

    One could say that the potential difference in energy of the electron is the voltage. Then one could simply replace P with V in the theory with Ohms Law, where;

    V = I |Z|e^(j arg(Z))

    Here it is shown the equivalence of resistance and impedance. Then one could arrive at an equation which includes mass on a quantum scale which is related to an electrical theory. I don’t believe this part of Einstein’s theory has ever been tested, because of the issues involved with translating the terminology from a pre-modern physics era and the complexity of the paper.

    The electrons travel down a line and when they meet a microtubule they create a resistance. The pondoromotive force always acts on the electrons in the opposite direction, making it negative for both positive and negative charges. This causes a build up of potential energy that can be measured as the total charge or amplitude of the voltage of the line.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2023
  9. Contemplation Registered Senior Member


    Microtubules may be the best way to test section 10, since they have a constant impedance. Like I stated before, an inductor is basically a coil or closely wound up spring. No one has been able to devise a way to create a steady voltage under such circumstances. It appears that already exists in nature on a microscopic scale. Nature has seemingly already done the work for us in creating a tiny spring to measure potential energy. That was what was called for to test the theory in the paper, but it was far from the technological advancements of the time and today.

    When I first read about this idea over two decades ago it was mentioned that this could possibly be considered the closest we could ever come to a theory of everything. It was unknown at the time if the Higgs Boson would ever be discovered. In order to be a complete theory of everything it would have to include the Higgs Field and possibly the tau periodic table of elements (which was denied as being experimentally verified as a candidate for dark energy until published).
    Write4U likes this.
  10. Contemplation Registered Senior Member

    One thing I find striking is that one could also update W for work with I (current) in section 10. By a simple substitution, one could cancel out the entire part of the relativistic equation by combining the two equations for work and the difference of potential energy. The result can end up being that the ponderomotive force is actually just the reciprocal of impedance.

    The equation for impedance was actually never derived formally. It is an experimental abstraction where the values only approximate what was measured in experiment. The phase shift portion of the equation is commonly dropped to simplify equations, since it is mostly negligible for circuits that were standardized by Bell Labs.

    The true equation for impedance may actually just be the reciprocal of the ponderomotive force.

    E = I / ponderomotive force
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2023
  11. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Every buck converter in existence (and there are billions) uses an inductor to create a steady voltage. Google it.
  12. Contemplation Registered Senior Member

    The wiki states that it is a DC to DC converter. I was referring to an inductor being in series with an AC. It would actually require a frequency regulator. I have tested this in circuit simulators and it ends up crashing them a lot. I actually got one to work before, and it actually increases the amount of voltage on the line once it is regulated.

    You could also have a storage capacitive circuit in parallel with a frequency regulator from an AC signal and send a feedback loop from the storage capacitive circuit to the frequency regulator to further increase the voltage in series with the inductor. This provides a huge increase to the voltage as a stair step, until the simulation crashes from obtaining too high of a value.

    In theory, it would create a flux capacitor that makes scrambling plant brains possible.
  13. billvon Valued Senior Member

    That's how a buck converter works. A switch chops the DC to AC, then the AC is fed to an inductor. You then get a stable DC voltage out, lower than the input voltage.
    Then you are using them incorrectly.
  14. Contemplation Registered Senior Member

    Chopping DC to AC? Like, what? The only AC being generated there would be between the inductor and the capacitor. The wiki clearly says that it has a DC input and output.

    The inductor would offer no resistance to the DC current. That is split between the capacitor and the load. The capacitor would act as an open circuit to the DC circuit, but some of it would be reflected, due to the ponderomotive force. This AC would then be able to pass through the capacitor as though it is a closed circuit. Then the AC is shorted that way to prevent it from going to the load. The zener diode prevents AC and only passes DC back into the input of the inductor.

    This is actually a really common configuration for anytime an inductor is used to prevent changes to the voltage level caused by the ponderomotive force (reflections caused by impedance). There is nothing special about it. It has DC in and DC out, not AC in and DC out, like I mentioned.
    I believe the problem is due to a program error that is common to occur when dealing with big numbers. I can get the simulation to get up into a very high voltage, much more than any of the components could handle, before the crash occurs.

    I think I figured out how it could potentially be grounded. The most difficult part would be separating the voltage from ground with a very high difference in potential energy. It would have to be grounded by a Tesla Coil with the globe removed. The output and input of the Tesla Coil could then be switched. The input of the Tesla Coil would instead be ground, and the output would be in front of the inductor instead of using a globe.

    Then it would have to be loaded with an Alcubierre Drive using a coil rotation AC voltage regulator, so it has one of those spinning things on the top like in the book A Time Machine. With one of those oscillating frequency generators that can create frequencies from ground. I was having trouble finding that one on Google. If you know what I am talking about.
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2023
  15. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Like chopping DC to AC. An image of this is shown below. The two FETs chop the DC to AC.
    No, the AC is generated between the switches and the inductor.
    Which is why it is called a switchmode (that's the AC part) DC/DC converter (that's the DC part.)
    Which is why it is not fed with DC.
    Again, this is not because there is a problem with the program. This is because you don't know what you are doing. I have used both PSPICE and LTSPICE to simulate switchmode power supplies.
    That's a theoretical warp drive that has nothing to do with anything else in this thread.
    At this point it is clear that YOU don't know what you are talking about.

    Attached Files:

  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Looking at one sensory perception of plants from a real world phenomenon.

    When a seed is planted upside down, the root grows out the top but then curves down and continues to grow downward and develop normally as roots.
    OTOH, the shoot starts at the bottom but then curves upward until it breaks free from the soil and continues to grow upward toward the sun.

    It is proposed that roots grow downward guided by a "sense" of gravity, whereas shoots grow upward guided by a sense of sunlight, but inside the ground how does the stem know to grow "upward"?

    How Do Plants Know Which Way Is Up And Which Way Is Down?

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    And you guessed it....

    3. The Statolith

    Perhaps we don't know how, but we do know they do, and that is yet another "hard fact" of microtubular function.

    If plants have an internal physical pattern that is sensitive to external influences, is it a stretch to imagine an emergent evolutionary sophistication in these sensory abilities, until the organism develops a fully functional unconscious homeostasis, but then in addition, an emergent sensory self-awareness of these external conditions and pressures, and choice of physical response?
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2023
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    But this where Penrose disagrees with the Copenhagen interpretation. He proposes that it is the quantum wave collapse of superposed particles causes a "bing", a moment of universal consciousness.
    IOW the observer has no part in the collapse but can only observe the result.

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    | |

    I am not qualified to comment on the merits, but somehow that seems right.
    How can an observation at a distance affect a wave function? A rock in the ocean only collapses that portion of the wave function that actually hits the rock at the rock's location, nothing else.
    I can understand that the wave function collapses at the point of the observer, when it hits the retina in the case of a human observer.
    IOW the collapse creates a moment of perceptronium.
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    And this sounded very interesting to me.

    Information in Plants: The Informational Model of the Plant Cells and Plant Structures
    Florin Gaiseanu1, 2
    1Department of Science and Technology of Information, Institute of Microtechnology, Bucharest, Romania
    2Department of Science and Technology of Information, Center of Microelectronics, Barcelona, Spain

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    Figure 1. Schematic representation of the informational system of the eukaryotic cell, for animals and plants; the plant cells possess walls providing the structure support and chloroplasts, as a specific food provider by the light-assisted photosynthesis process.
    more .......
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2023
  19. Contemplation Registered Senior Member

    • trolling
    One could update the equation for frequency in section 7 of Einstein’s 1905 paper,

    f’ = f sqrt( ( 1 + v/c ) / ( 1 - v/c )

    The paper doesn’t specify the direction of motion, but it actually hints towards it by stating that v = - c , f’ = infinity. It is commonly known that as an object approaches the speed of light that it is redshifted. As v increases f’ also increases.

    In either form, I can obtain the same result when v = 0, f’=f

    The prime frame in the special theory of relativity is actually a co-moving frame of reference that acts against the other co-ordinate plane. It seems as though f’ is acting equally and opposite to f when it collides and has zero instantaneous velocity at one moment in time.

    It could possibly be a pseudo force generated by this co-moving frame that prevents everything from traveling the speed of light. It would be a force really similar to epsilon in the theory, except it pushes against frequencies instead of space. The reason for this is because he used Galilean Relativity, kind of like how Jesus was a Jew.
  20. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Moderator note: Contemplation has been warned for trolling.

    The previous post is off-topic and nonsensical - too stupid by half, even for the Pseudoscience forum.
  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    continuing with the formation and function of microtubular Astrocytes and Oligodendrocytes

    What Are Glial Cells and What Do They Do?

    By Adrienne Dellwo Updated on March 10, 2023
    Medically reviewed by Brigid Dwyer, MD

    Journal of Neuroscience 1 July 1997, 17 (13) 4921-4932; DOI:
    Microtubule Organization and Stability in the Oligodendrocyte
    Katharine F. Lunn, Peter W. Baas and Ian D. Duncan

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    Fig. 1. Distribution of microtubules in the cell body and processes of a cultured oligodendrocyte. Optical sections of ∼0.6 μm axial resolution through an oligodendrocyte labeled with an anti-β-tubulin primary antibody and an FITC-labeled secondary antibody, and examined by confocal microscopy. Microtubules are present throughout the cell body and processes of this cell and have a filamentous appearance, forming a meshwork in the perinuclear cytoplasm and parallel arrays in the processes. There is no evidence of discrete microtubule organizing structures in this cell. Scale bar, 10 μm.

    The following link is to a list of additional microtubule functions. By placing cursor over the Title will activate a sidebar with the article's Abstract.

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