Is it possible to believe in God, and be a darwinist at the same time?

[Jan Ardena]

wegs,

what are the alternative explanations for such evidence, would you say?

Does there have to be ''alternative explanations''?
I just see them as different explanations of the same evidence.

So, you believe the evidence does exist, but you are not satisfied or convinced rather, with the explanations of said evidence? That's totally fair, but then what is the alternative explanation?

I don't think there needs to be an ''alternative explanation''.

would you share what the 'other' explanations are against Darwin's theory?
(that you believe)
Unless you are speaking of Biblical Scripture as arguing against evolution...but then, we just come right back around to the same point, Jan.

What point would that be?

It is an inconvenient truth, for lack of a better phrase, that one who is spiritual and follows the Bible, will at the very least, have to toss out Genesis from an origin of man view, in order to embrace the theory of evolution. One can't believe both; one does have to choose one over the other. I think you have said you believe that it is literal, (going from memory in this thread). So is that your counter argument against evolution? (just so I'm clear)

Why is darwinian evolution so important?
What are your reasons for accepting the darwinian explanation of the evidence?
And finally why is it an either/or situation. I could easily just say ''yes, the majority of scientists say they accept evolution, so I should also accept it on that basis'', but what good is that to me. I'm no further to knowing the actual truth.

I don't accept the explanations, because they don't make sense to me, and I'm not the type of person who accept things because others do.
I cannot accept Whale evolution, it just seem preposterous to me, especially when I see it in film format.

If it's true, then it will find a way to connect, as any other truth does, but I'm not going to force myself to believe it because everybody else does.

Having said that, to not believe that Genesis supports the origin of man, doesn't make one any less of a believer in God's existence. (in other words, a believer doesn't need to make a choice between believing in the 'wholeness' of God and evolution, simply because he/she feels Genesis doesn't support the origin of man)

You're talking about choices we make. I'm talking about your natural bottom line position, regardless of whether you are aware or not.

see the above link I posted, please.

That does not answer the question.
I want to know why you personally accept it. There must be some experience that occurs revealing something that makes it acceptable to you.
How does darwinian evolution work for you, in your life?
Is it an important revelation? If so how?

jan.

 

[spidergoat]

I see those as explanations from the evidence for evolution.

That being said, I favour other explanations which contradict darwinian evolution, of the evidence.

What is it that makes you accept the explanations of the evidence, that say darwinian evolution took place?

jan.

Don't even fucking start again. We have shown you the evidence for years on this forum. It's overwhelming. And you don't want to believe it. We can't be responsible for your religiously motivated ignorance. Why don't you go to church and leave these thinking people alone already? You are preposterous, not evolution.

 

[sculptor]

I didn't make the statement, it's something from the physicist Victor Stenger. .

OK so what is it that made you think that Victor Stenger was an expert on/in the teachings of all major religions?

 

[iceaura]

Here is some of the stuff that standard evolutionary theory explains easily and efficiently and nothing else handles well:

The following 6 links are to pictures of six animals, all of them warmblooded and terrestrial. Their appearance, their material manifestation, is a product of developmental somatic growth governed by the DNA as expressed in their embryonic and juvenile environment. They look as they do because of their DNA, basically. We have demonstrated that in the lab.

Now the DNA sequences, the specific genetic coding, is very different in each of them - but in one particular pair, it is considerably closer than in any other pairing possible among the six. That is, of the fifteen possible pairs, one will be found to be notably more similar in the two codes than the other fourteen. Those employing Darwinian Theory will have no trouble correctly predicting which pair, and explaining why. Those without such theory will have much more trouble choosing the pair, and will I believe find it all but impossible to even approach explaining the comparative similarity.

http://ds-lands.com/data_images/animals/dassie-rat/dassie-rat-03.jpg
http://animals.desktopnexus.com/get/381367/?t=bmk0ffqkou0qd60oqijffmrvs45216367558894
http://www.ozanimals.com/Mammal/Long-nosed-Potoroo/Potorous/tridactylus.html
http://www.google.com.au/imgres?q=m...or-a-snooze/&docid=h5esgNvg214qqM&imgurl=http
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/sep/23/hedgehogs-spotted-uk-gardens
http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/34700000/Grey-Elephant-colors-34712003-2293-1553.jpg

 

[wegs]

Jan;

I appreciate your points above...I didn't want to bother quoting everything.
Honestly, I truly don’t care if you accept evolution, but if you don’t…you must have an alternative in your mind as to how mankind arrived here.
But, that’s not the point of the thread. The point I think is can someone be a believer in God, and evolution?

Do you think so? Yes, or no?

If no…then, that is actually more of the point of the thread. It has derailed into arguments and straw man nonsense, for and against evolution. But, that’s not your point in starting the thread, going with the thread title. The OT here is ‘’can someone be a believer and believe in the theory of evolution?’’

I say yes. What do you think?

 

[Jan Ardena]

Don't even fucking start again. We have shown you the evidence for years on this forum. It's overwhelming. And you don't want to believe it. We can't be responsible for your religiously motivated ignorance. Why don't you go to church and leave these thinking people alone already? You are preposterous, not evolution.

I don't accept the explanations. You think it's overwhelming, I don't. It has nothing to do with what I want or don't want, plus you don't even comprehend what you regard as my ''religiously motivated ignorance'' which is why you regard it as ''religous'' and ''ignorance''.

I accept that to you Whale evolution isn't preposterous, but it is to me.
So please keep your facist, bullshit, intolerance to yourself

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Jan;

I appreciate your points above...I didn't want to bother quoting everything.
Honestly, I truly don’t care if you accept evolution, but if you don’t…you must have an alternative in your mind as to how mankind arrived here.
But, that’s not the point of the thread. The point I think is can someone be a believer in God, and evolution?

Do you think so? Yes, or no?

If no…then, that is actually more of the point of the thread. It has derailed into arguments and straw man nonsense, for and against evolution. But, that’s not your point in starting the thread, going with the thread title. The OT here is ‘’can someone be a believer and believe in the theory of evolution?’’

I say yes. What do you think?

Wegs, I asked you some important questions in my previous response, and once again you have avoided them, while continuing to ask more questions. I have given a truthful response to your questions, and would appreciate a response from you to the questions I asked.

I don't think it is possible to actually believe in God, and accept the darwinian idea of evolution unless something gives. Either you create a strawman God in which you write in his role, purpose, nature, character, and so on. Or you tailor make evolution to be something that God intended but had no control over meaning that God is not a Supreme Being, but is something like a demi-god.

As you do believe in both, it would be interesting to find out how you think it works. You don't seem to accept any scripture (but I can't see how you would come to the conclusion that there is a God without them), yet you believe in God, in a similar way to religious people. No scripture hints at the darwinian process (aside from vedic scripture which explains a similar process in another way. Perhaps the subject of another thread?).

jan.

 

[spidergoat]

I don't accept the explanations. You think it's overwhelming, I don't. It has nothing to do with what I want or don't want, plus you don't even comprehend what you regard as my ''religiously motivated ignorance'' which is why you regard it as ''religous'' and ''ignorance''.

I accept that to you Whale evolution isn't preposterous, but it is to me.
So please keep your facist, bullshit, intolerance to yourself

jan.

This is a great example of why religion is a problem. Not that it makes people violent, anyone can be violent. But it leads people to deny reality in favor of their fantasy stories. Note that the only counter to evolution is that there is a book you like. Written by goat herders who thought the weather was a personal judgement against them.

 

[Jan Ardena]

spidergoat,

This is a great example of why religion is a problem.

In this case it is your religion that is a problem.

Not that it makes people violent, anyone can be violent.

Your type of religion makes people violent because it is one of elitism, and gross intolerence.

But it leads people to deny reality in favor of their fantasy stories.

Whale evolution the movie, a great example.

Note that the only counter to evolution is that there is a book you like. Written by goat herders who thought the weather was a personal judgement against them.

You're bothered about darwinian evolution, I'm not. It's not important. It is only important for you because it gives you some kind of intellectual satisfaction in giving you a reason to force your atheistic ideology on to the the world. I don't know what it is with you religious types, you get an idea and you want to change the entire world.

I'll leave you to your ignorance regarding scriptures. That said. Bye!

jan.

 

[sculptor]

This is a great example of why religion is a problem. Not that it makes people violent, anyone can be violent. But it leads people to deny reality in favor of their fantasy stories. Note that the only counter to evolution is that there is a book you like. Written by goat herders who thought the weather was a personal judgement against them.

"We have nothing to fear but fear itself."

No side to this dichotomy is the problem. The problem is the problem!
The more one attacks, the more defensive becomes the other side, and the continuation of the attacks derive from defensive posturing.
The only way to end any war is to stop fighting. Not with words, and not on the battlefield, but in your hearts and minds, YOU must make the personal choice to understand and forgive, and just not fight.

Jan, anyone who truely loves GOD must love all of GOD's creations, not just some, some of the time, but all, all of the time.
If you love god and appreciate the gifts of god's creations, then you must want to know all that you possibly can about those creations and thereby get to know GOD just a little bit better. And, for that , Jan: Science is a very valuable tool!

Spider when you post words like "a book you like. Written by goat herders who thought the weather was a personal judgement against them."
You show your ignorance and weaken your arguement. Have you actually read that BOOK? Cliff notes don't cut it.
I read the thing and I gotta say that I never got the impression that it was written by superstitious "goat herders". There is a whole helluva lot in there about how to get along with your neighbors, including some pastoral prejudices. And, should that fail, there is a lot of information about using terrain and psychological warefare to win battles. (still studien in military colleges)

If you do not comprehend metaphor and parable, and you cannot understand the actions of the people mentioned therein in an historical perspective, then, the BOOK will be worthless to you.

In the meantime, I am well educated in religious studies, and the study of man, and I do not ever see a conflict between a belief in "god, yhwh, the TAO, the Buddha or the words of the messenger and science(including Darwin's theory).

Daisetsu Teitaro Suzuki once commented that you could not teach nor express ZEN in words, and then proceeded to write several books and articles on the subject...............
words
words
words
we post and think we understand
but
we only understand the meanings of shadows of nuances of words
not substance

 

[billvon]

That being said, I favour other explanations which contradict darwinian evolution, of the evidence.

A few posts later:

I don't think there needs to be an ''alternative explanation''.

So you favor alternative explanations, but they don't need to actually exist.

Well, that certainly solves the problem of you having to explain them.

 

[billvon]

I don't think it is possible to actually believe in God, and accept the darwinian idea of evolution unless something gives.

That's due to your belief that your view of God is the only valid one. Plenty of people believe in God and accept evolution.

 

[wegs]

wegs,



Does there have to be ''alternative explanations''?

for at least yourself, yes. you don't need to explain anything to me, per se. but, we are on a forum where discussion is the point, and so, when someone says...'I don't believe in evolution,' there should at least be a reason as to why. You have said why, it doesn't make sense to you. But, then, what is the alternative? Is it Scripture for you?

I don't think there needs to be an ''alternative explanation''.

Everyone decides ultimately, what to believe. If the Bible didn't exist, what would you believe? If you're being given answers by science, proof by science...would you just throw your hands up and say...I don't know how we got here. Even with evidence? If so, why?

What point would that be?

The point is...that we seem to be having a circular discussion about whether the theory of evolution is plausible, as opposed to the crux of the thread really being about if people believe someone can be both, a believer and a Darwinist.

Why is darwinian evolution so important?

To me, I find importance (and fascination) in having an understanding of where mankind came from and where it's heading.

What are your reasons for accepting the darwinian explanation of the evidence?

The evidence (not only the explanations for it) seems overwhelmingly plausible.

And finally why is it an either/or situation. I could easily just say ''yes, the majority of scientists say they accept evolution, so I should also accept it on that basis'', but what good is that to me. I'm no further to knowing the actual truth.

Do you accept other scientific theories? If so, based on what you say here, why?
''Theories'', while they all differ and support different findings, are all born from the same methods as to how they became theories.
The theory of evolution is no different in that regard.

I don't accept the explanations, because they don't make sense to me, and I'm not the type of person who accept things because others do.

That's fair. I don't come to an acceptance of things that way, either. I research and reason my way to truth, as others have, who follow the theory.
If something doesn't make sense, I'm not sure I'd toss it out, based on that only. But, fair enough, you answered this. Thank you.

If it's true, then it will find a way to connect, as any other truth does, but I'm not going to force myself to believe it because everybody else does.

Everybody doesn't believe it. Many don't. But of the many who don't, they don't know why they don't. Or they feel that in order to accept it, they mustn't be faithful believers then.

You're talking about choices we make. I'm talking about your natural bottom line position, regardless of whether you are aware or not.

sorry, aware of what?

That does not answer the question.

it does

I want to know why you personally accept it. There must be some experience that occurs revealing something that makes it acceptable to you.
How does darwinian evolution work for you, in your life?
Is it an important revelation? If so how?

As I stated above, the evidence and explanations of it, are overwhelmingly plausible.
I don't require a personal view, to believe it.
My belief in God is a personal view.

 

[iceaura]

] Wegs, I asked you some important questions in my previous response, and once again you have avoided them, while continuing to ask more questions.

That's why I warned you about "elaborating" - he hasn't answered any of your questions, nor has he explained and justified any of his claims, nor (I predict) will he: instead, he attacks personally, accuses you of something (based on an "elaboration" he requested), and you can't cajole him into being reasonable like this:

I don't accept the explanations, because they don't make sense to me, and I'm not the type of person who accept things because others do.

That's fair. I don't come to an acceptance of things that way, either. I research and reason my way to truth, as others have, who follow the theory. If something doesn't make sense, I'm not sure I'd toss it out, based on that only. But, fair enough, you answered this. Thank you.

Telling him "that's fair" and "you answered this" when he's just repeated his earlier assertions - repeating the exact stuff you asked him to explain, answering nothing, and accusing you of what he's doing - will not pet him into ever actually answering questions or discussing issues. Thanking him for his trolling will not shame him into desisting. He knows what he's doing, he likes it, and he's going to keep doing it.

He has no argument against Darwinian Theory, and no "alternative explanations" of his own - we'd have seen them by now.

 

[wegs]

iceaura;


Here are the cliffs as I understand them:

1) Jan admitted to not accepting the theory of evolution because he said it doesn't make sense
2) Jan, I think (?) believes that Scripture points to the origin of man (could be seen as an alternative, to evo, no?)
3) I thanked him based on #1 and #2
4) I have no desire to shame him or anyone

The reason this thread has gone as long as it has ...is because many here allowed the discussion to spiral downward into arguments and straw men for and against evolution. Jan doesn't care about evolution, honestly. The thread simply asks the question...''can a believer of God, also be a Darwinist?

I understand your frustration, though. But, convincing Jan of evolution was never the point of the thread.

Just my $.02

 

[gmilam]

I understand your frustration, though. But, convincing Jan of evolution was never the point of the thread.

Jan started the thread, apparently to tell people who believe in both evolution and "God" that they are wrong.

Jan is a troll, pure and simple.

 

[Jan Ardena]

sculptor,

Jan, anyone who truely loves GOD must love all of GOD's creations, not just some, some of the time, but all, all of the time.
If you love god and appreciate the gifts of god's creations, then you must want to know all that you possibly can about those creations and thereby get to know GOD just a little bit better. And, for that , Jan: Science is a very valuable tool!

I'm not disputing the value of science.

jan.

 

[Grumpy]

Jan Ardena

I don't believe in authority because they claim to be authority. I accept based on what I do know.

No you don't, you believe because that's what you were indoctrinated to believe. You can not have knowledge of non-existent things.

Do you really think the idea of ''God'' being the original cause is ''crap''?

Which idea of god? All but one(at best, as even you would agree)are crap, and due to a complete lack of evidence, I think even that one is. It is replacing investigation and confirmation with superstitious non-sense. It's replacing "I don't know" with "I'm with stupid".

You are aware that the Big Bang concept was a result of the work of a Jesuit Priest(Lemaitre)based upon the evidence of Hubble's expansion, right? I'm sure everything he ever did was fueled by his lack of belief in god, right?

That's definitely a possibility.
Do you think that he is his uniform, or his occupation?

I take the Father's word as to his beliefs, maybe you should take his word about that huge, unthoughtful blind spot you have concerning scientific knowledge, hmmm?

Will you recognize that explanation of the evidence if and when it surfaces?
Or will you be saying ''When evidence is found that makes that the most likely explanation'' till the day you croak?

Scientists actually look, so yes, IF such evidence appears, I will recognize it. 60+ years so far, no such evidence.

When you say ''we'', who do you refer to?

Mankind and his accumulated knowledge. As opposed to his accumulated , supernatural, superstitious explanations.

Grumpy

 

[Rav]

I'm not interested in religious interpretations of the Bible, they are biased toward their particular brand of religion. Get over it dude!

No. I'm not biased toward any particular religious ideology .

More utter bullshit. You are biased toward your own religious ideology, and as I've explained before this ideology is the platform from which you declare that Christian's are interpreting the Bible incorrectly, or that Muslim's are interpreting the Qur'an incorrectly, or that theists like `Abdu'l-Bahá (the founder of the Bahá'í faith) are incorrect in their assertions that evolutionary theory is compatible with theism, or that the Deists are incorrect in their assertion that scripture is not divinely inspired, or any other claim you wish to make about metaphysics, theology, theologians, religious people, or pretty much anything that comes to bear on any of these things.

It is the very act of making claims like these that reveals your ideology, and since it is an ideology that primarily relates to God and His relationship with creation, and since it puts you in conflict with the ideologies of other theists, it is quite clearly (and by definition) a religious ideology.

Honestly, I generally don't call religious people delusional. But to be in denial about this is the very definition of it.

In that case they should just accept what is said without interpreting the words in such a way that suit their worldview.

Where is the irony?

The irony lies in the fact that you are interpreting the Bible to suit your worldview. You can deny it all you want, but to do so is to keep embracing that delusion.

Can you explain why I'm being ''willfully'' ignorant?

Because you're clearly not reading all the links I'm giving you, and you've been exhibiting this sort of laziness not only throughout the course of this discussion, but many others. In this most recent instance you clearly only bothered to follow the first link and thus failed to address the content of all the others, which collectively constituted a study of multiple verses.

If one has not been programmed into the religion, one can demonstrate with ridiculous amounts of ease.
Sorry but you're programming is still in effect.

Some housekeeping:

Do you accept that a Christian who embraces the sort of reading of the Bible that leads to standard Christian theology is indeed a genuine theist as long as their faith in God is properly genuine?

Grow some balls and answer the question.

 

[Rav]

Your type of religion makes people violent because it is one of elitism, and gross intolerence.

The delusion is strong with this one...

Elitism and intolerance is exactly what you are promoting here. You are essentially spitting in the face of those who seek to resolve the conflict between science and religion, not to mention any other theist who has views that are not in line with your own in some other way.