Krishna - Question(s) for lightgigantic and all

davewhite04

davewhite04

Valued Senior Member
My initial topic of interest is where do bad qualities in man come from if your belief is in Krishna?

"Only goodness comes from God" was the answer I got from lightgigantic.

After reading from a weblink, I seem to have found a contradiction, but I could be wrong and would like to discuss further.

So my first question regarding Krishna I will ask again.

Does Krishna(God) have any bad qualities?

Here is a snippet from a website that I was presented with:

"
According to Bhagavad-gita, Krishna is...

...the essence of everything:
the taste in water
the sound in ether
the ability in man
the heat in fire
the life of all that lives
the intelligence of the intelligent
the prowess of all powerful men
the original fragrance of the earth
the light of the sun and the moon
the strength of the strong."

The ability in man I highlighted, because this seems to suggest that if a man can murder someone, then that ability came from Krishna, as all of mans abilities do, both good and bad.

So lightgigantic, if the scriptures specify that no badness comes from Krishna (which is what lightgigantic answered with) then I think there seems to be a contradiction.

Over to you.

Website http://www.iskcon.org/education/theology/9.htm
 
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davewhite04 said:
My initial topic of interest is where do bad qualities in man come from if your belief is in Krishna?

"Only goodness comes from God" was the answer I got from lightgigantic.

After reading from a weblink, I seem to have found a contradiction, but I could be wrong and would like to discuss further.

So my first question regarding Krishna I will ask again.

Does Krishna(God) have any bad qualities?

Here is a snippet from a website that I was presented with:

"
According to Bhagavad-gita, Krishna is...

...the essence of everything:
the taste in water
the sound in ether
the ability in man
the heat in fire
the life of all that lives
the intelligence of the intelligent
the prowess of all powerful men
the original fragrance of the earth
the light of the sun and the moon
the strength of the strong."

The ability in man I highlighted, because this seems to suggest that if a man can murder someone, then that ability came from Krishna, as all of mans abilities do, both good and bad.

So lightgigantic, if the scriptures specify that no badness comes from Krishna (which is what lightgigantic answered with) then I think there seems to be a contradiction.

Over to you.

Website http://www.iskcon.org/education/theology/9.htm
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from a commentary on this verse by Sridhara Swami

Exactly how Lord Krishna is the cause of the sustenance of creation is being described in five verses commencing here. His being the sapidity or essence in water means He exists in the molecular substratum of water as the essence of sapidity.......He is the essence of all sounds in ether and He is the potency of competence in man. Verily man excels and flourishes by the potency of competence.
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and another by Madhvacharya

Here we are receiving jnana or knowledge that Lord Krishna is the essence of specific things. Super sensory illuminating perception is vijnana. The greatness of the Supreme Lord is revealed later but now even the inherent nature of and His being the essence of along with the natural qualities and attributes of different substances are being described as being special potencies and representations of the Supreme Lord. The fact that these special essences and attributes do not manifest on their own is shown by the mentioning of special words such as raso'ham apsu meaning He is the essence in water.
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so in other words all the people who think this looks cool are actually marvelling at a spark of god's splendor
 
S.A.M. said:
What according to you is Krishna?
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dave's quote is taken from a chapter that deals with explaining how whatever "essence" or "opulence" we encounter in this world is attributed as an aspect of god.

For instance later in the same chapter Krishna says

BG 7.12: Know that all states of being — be they of goodness, passion or ignorance — are manifested by My energy. I am, in one sense, everything, but I am independent. I am not under the modes of material nature, for they, on the contrary, are within Me.
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IOW krishna is unpacking a portion of what he later states in a more concise form

BG 10.8: I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who perfectly know this engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts.
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Basically Krishna has name, form, qualities and pastimes, just like any person does, but his are of a greater capacity that we cannot immitate.

Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. (Katha Upanishad 2.2.13) As we are all individual living beings and have our individuality, the Supreme Absolute Truth is also, in the ultimate issue, a person, and realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all of the transcendental features in His complete form. The complete whole is not formless. If He is formless, or if He is less than any other thing, then He cannot be the complete whole. The complete whole must have everything within our experience and beyond our experience, otherwise it cannot be complete."
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-AC Bhaktivedanta Swami
 
lightgigantic said:
from a commentary on this verse by Sridhara Swami

and another by Madhvacharya
Click to expand...

I'll comment shortly.

so in other words all the people who think this looks cool are actually marvelling at a spark of god's splendor
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I appreciate that. But without linking to a video that shows human beings at their worst, I would like to ask, if you saw an innocent man being killed by another man would you see god in that at all?
 
lightgigantic said:
Basically Krishna has name, form, qualities and pastimes, just like any person does, but his are of a greater capacity that we cannot immitate.

"Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. (Katha Upanishad 2.2.13) As we are all individual living beings and have our individuality, the Supreme Absolute Truth is also, in the ultimate issue, a person, and realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all of the transcendental features in His complete form. The complete whole is not formless. If He is formless, or if He is less than any other thing, then He cannot be the complete whole. The complete whole must have everything within our experience and beyond our experience, otherwise it cannot be complete."

-AC Bhaktivedanta Swami
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This to me suggests that the god you speak of does have bad qualities, otherwise he would not be whole.
 
lightgigantic,

I don't want to bombard you with quotes and references, so this will be my last post for now.

BG as it is by AC Bhaktivedanta Swami

Chapter 7
Text 6

Translation

All created beings have their source in these two natures. Of all that is material and all that is spiritual in this world, know for certain that I am both the origin and the dissolution.

(For people who don't know what the BG is, this is Krishna speaking)

Purport

Everything that exists is a product of matter and spirit. Spirit is the basic field of creation, and matter is created by spirit. Spirit is not created at a certain stage of material development.........Similarly, the entire cosmic manifestation of the gigantic universal is developed because of the presence of the Supersoul, Visnu. Therefore spirit and matter, which combine to manifest this gigantic universal form, are originally two energies of the Lord, and consequently the Lord is the original cause of everything. A fragmental part and parcel of the Lord, namely the living entity, may be the cause of a big skyscraper, a big factory, or even a big city, but he cannot be the cause of a big universe. The cause of the big universe is the big soul, or the Supersoul. And Krishna, the Supreme, is the cause of both the big and small souls. Therefore He is the original cause of all causes.

This suggests that we are ultimately all miniature Krishna's.

Would you agree with this lightgigantic?
 
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In my understanding the Hindu view is that man is an aspect of God's being, so everything is God. Good and bad are human interpretations of events, not a universal truth. The Gods represent death, destruction and chaos as much as life. Actually life depends on death, they are inseparable.
 
It is an attitude shared by most Eastern religions. Only the west separates good and evil, life and death, light and dark, etc...
 
Well the life depends on death bit I don't agree with 100%.

Life actually depends on life in the first place.

As for only the west seperating good and evil, this is what I'm mainly interested in.
 
davewhite04 said:
I appreciate that. But without linking to a video that shows human beings at their worst, I would like to ask, if you saw an innocent man being killed by another man would you see god in that at all?
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If there is something "spectacular" about the video, that is an aspect of god. Actually the point you seem to driving at seems to be more to do with

BG 18.61: The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine, made of the material energy.

In other words the quote you originally opened with is dealing with actions that are remarkable or outstanding (maybe you could talk of a remarkable act of violence - like something from a Jackie Chan movie ... anyway ... the idea is that nobody can do things more impressively than god, and any impressive act we see in this world is a dim reflection of that potency). There is however the aspect of how god is controlling everyone's actions (IOW no body can act without the sanction of god ... including a murderer).

So naturally this raises questions of morality, innocent victims etc. Is this what you are trying to get at?
 
Dave

“ Originally Posted by lightgigantic
Basically Krishna has name, form, qualities and pastimes, just like any person does, but his are of a greater capacity that we cannot immitate.

"Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. (Katha Upanishad 2.2.13) As we are all individual living beings and have our individuality, the Supreme Absolute Truth is also, in the ultimate issue, a person, and realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all of the transcendental features in His complete form. The complete whole is not formless. If He is formless, or if He is less than any other thing, then He cannot be the complete whole. The complete whole must have everything within our experience and beyond our experience, otherwise it cannot be complete."

-AC Bhaktivedanta Swami ”

This to me suggests that the god you speak of does have bad qualities, otherwise he would not be whole.
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how does bad qualities make one greater or more whole?
I mean suppose you had a wonderful relationship with your partner and they complained that you never got drunk and beat them mercilessly, and that you were therefore making the relationship incomplete?

This suggests that we are ultimately all miniature Krishna's.

Would you agree with this lightgigantic?
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actually my general observation of answers to many spiritual questions is "yes and no"
:D

qualitatively all conscious entities are composed of the same "substance" as god (sat - eternity, cit - knowledge, ananda - bliss ... IOW we are conscious seekers of happiness) but quantitatively we are distinct.
... so yes in one sense we are miniature krishna's ... however ...


Eternally we are constitutionally engaged in the service of god (ie we are prakriti/subservient engaged in the service of purusa/god) but under the constraints of illusion (ie in the material world) we falsely assume the position of being a purusa (IOW the root cause of suffering in the material world is due to immitating god)
... on the other hand we are not miniature krishna's
 
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Spidergoat
spidergoat said:
In my understanding the Hindu view is that man is an aspect of God's being, so everything is God. Good and bad are human interpretations of events, not a universal truth. The Gods represent death, destruction and chaos as much as life.
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this is the advaita perspective, which (to cut a long story short) monoplizes the academic analysis of hinduism due to the british institutionalizing it within syllabuses all those many years ago.

There is sufficient means to challenge this perspective even within the gita

BG 7.12: Know that all states of being — be they of goodness, passion or ignorance — are manifested by My energy. I am, in one sense, everything, but I am independent. I am not under the modes of material nature, for they, on the contrary, are within Me.

Actually life depends on death, they are inseparable.
Click to expand...
This is perhaps a view popularized by jainism. I don't think you would even find this perspective entertained in the advaita school.
 
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