London riots: Violence erupts for third day

wb Gustav...good post.

I disagree. First, two wrongs don't make a right, so MPs fiddling expenses doesn't give a chav the right to go smash someone's business to pieces. The rioters were not striking out at the Govt, but just smashing and looting. The rioters have coerced each other to the point people have been killed. There is NO excuse for their behaviour.
 
I disagree. The problem is the same theiving politicians are the ones demanding draconian measrues. No-one is saying the rioters are OK 'cause the politicians steal too.
 
Politicians don't steal, they defraud the system using perfectly legal loopholes. It's totally different.
Apparently.
 
Double entendre!:bawl::bawl::bawl:

Sorry I didn't mean to offend grandma-nasties. (j/king)

Rioters are slaves, when they start rioting just to steal branded merchandise then they are slaves to fashion, corporations, advertisement etc.
 
As long as the peasants are poor and miserable they will revolt. This is history.

Most of those "peasants" either were directly on Social support or through their families. They get money for "nothing", they might suggest they don't have jobs because they aren't there, or suggest they aren't offered jobs, but if you analyse their attitudes, would you employ them?

I mean would you employ someone that if they felt had some burden to bare would just steal things from their employer to make it right?

If anything the only reason they rioted was because the government started to close in on benefit fraud, so they can't claim as three or four different people any more.
 
Agree with you on this 100%

I've spent plenty of time trying to highlight this to your average person in the UK, to me it seems as though no one cares. 'They are scum, rioters, more people could have died etc.'

Really frustrating. The Government are just trying to cover their own arses, and the media aren't helping matters.

I think the powers that be are setting out a marker for everyone, the whole country, not just the youth in ghettos or deprived areas.

In the years of the Cold War, governments use to worry about how various sleeper agents would infiltrate groups to manipulate them for other governments agenda's, over the years obviously the cold war died, however the strategy remains and is something that can be employed by even the domestic government in question.
 
Most of those "peasants" either were directly on Social support or through their families. They get money for "nothing", they might suggest they don't have jobs because they aren't there, or suggest they aren't offered jobs, but if you analyse their attitudes, would you employ them?

I mean would you employ someone that if they felt had some burden to bare would just steal things from their employer to make it right?

If anything the only reason they rioted was because the government started to close in on benefit fraud, so they can't claim as three or four different people any more.



You may want to refer to this:

2011 England riots
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not to be confused with 2011 United Kingdom anti-austerity protests.

These are kids on vacation, not unemployed dolts on the dole.

That said, its hardly surprising that the English would have a lower tolerance for austerity measures than say, the people of Gaza. That speaks to the general attitudes towards material wealth in western society and the unsupported assumption that the poor will be more amenable to being stripped of their meagre earnings than the rich to increased taxation


Fact. There is a link between cuts and riots

We've studied a century's worth of social unrest and the data suggests austerity measures can lead to riots

In a recent study, we focused on the link between austerity measures and unrest. We analysed a large number of countries, over almost a century, to unearth some empirical regularities. In two studies, we analysed unrest in 28 European countries from 1919 to 2009, and in 11 Latin American countries since 1937. What we found is a clear and positive statistical association between expenditure cuts and the level of unrest.

To construct our measure of unrest, we looked at five indicators: riots, anti-government demonstrations, general strikes, political assassinations, and attempted revolutions. In a typical year and country, there are about 1.5 incidents of this type. The more you cut, the more incidents you get. By the time austerity measures hit 3% or more, the number of incidents has doubled. Interestingly, for the UK, the pattern is even stronger: for every percentage point of cut-backs, instability surges by more than it does on average in the rest of the countries. Importantly, these effects are in addition to the well-known relationship between lower growth (associated with more unemployment) and higher instability.

While the pattern holds throughout our sample, the relationship is not deterministic – the chance of unrest goes up as governments retrench, but it is not guaranteed. Many incidents, such as police brutality, as in the case of Rodney King in LA, or the killing of Mark Duggan in London, can provide the spark that leads to a conflagration. One reason why times of austerity could create the right environment for massive unrest is, in our view, that cut-backs usually hit some parts of the society disproportionately more than others.

Interestingly, tax increases do not have the same effect. While they are also associated with greater instability, the effect is small, and the link weak. This suggests that governments wanting to retrench, but worried about social instability, should consider tax increases, first and foremost.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/16/austerity-programmes-cause-riots
 
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On austerity measures: [based on which, London better prepare for more riots next year]

The abolition of the education maintenance allowance, to be replaced by a derisory alternative, has been met by students in further education with anger, frustration and anxiety. Anger because of the misrepresentation that plagues the government's policy on support for learners, frustration because many students believe they are taking the rap for a crisis we did not cause, and anxiety because the inevitable question on each EMA recipient's mind – that's 620,000 young people from the poorest households – is: "How am I going to be able to afford to study and progress without this assurance of weekly support?"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/nov/08/education-maintenance-allowance-cuts

Haringey Council has voted through a raft of cuts to services in a bid to save £41million in 2011/12, thanks to cuts in central Government grants. Here is a rundown of how they plan to do it - just SOME of the cuts agreed...

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YOUNG PEOPLE

* Youth Service budget to be cut by 75 per cent to around £650,000, saving £1.96million by 2013. Eight youth centres closed already, the remaining five under threat.

* Connexions careers advice service for vulnerable young people reduced by 75 per cent saving £1.64million.

* Childrens centre service reduced and targeted at most vulnerable, saving £6.52million by 2013.

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OLDER PEOPLE

* Cranwood Older People’s Home in Muswell Hill and Broadwater Lodge Older People’s Home in Tottenham to close by April 2013, saving £1.1million.

* Red House Residential Care Home in South Tottenham, providing care for dementia patients and the frail, to close by April 2013, saving £714,000.

* Whitehall Residential Home in Tottenham, for people with learning difficulties, to close by April 2012, saving £237,000.

* Four drop-in centres for older people to close by summer 2011, saving £234,000 - Abyssinia Court in Crouch End, Willoughby Road in Hornsey, The Drop-in Centre at The Irish Centre in Tottenham, and Woodside House in Wood Green.

* The Haven Day Centre in Tottenham, for people with physical disabilities, to close by April 2012, and The Grange Day Centre in White Hart Lane, Tottenham, to merge with The Haynes Day Centre in Crouch End by April 2012, saving £234,000.

* Woodside Day Centre in Wood Green, used by 45 vulnerable older people, to close by April 2012, saving £149,000.

* Jacksons Lane Luncheon Club to lose £10,000 for a part-time worker by April 2011, leaving its future unclear.

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VULNERABLE PEOPLE

* Haringey’s home care service, offering personal care to vulnerable adults, to cease by April 2012, saving £1.06million.

* Overhaul and reduction of adult social care, saving £5million by 2012. Services to be amalgamated into “one generic floating support service” to give “some support” to people in their own homes.

* Reducing training of social workers for adults and children, saving £282,000.

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COUNCIL (PUBLIC-FACING)

* Closure of Hornsey and north Tottenham walk-in customer services centres, saving £551,000 but putting pressure on remaining Wood Green and South Tottenham centres. No centre at all in west Haringey.

* Council call centre hours cut from 8am-6pm to 9am-5pm, saving £30,000.

* Libraries’ books and staffing budget cut by £200,000. No libraries to close.

* Libraries’ management system costs reduced and Bruce Castle Museum staff cut, saving £384,000.

* Increasing residents’ parking permits and pay and display rates, generating extra £1million by 2013.

* Allotment charges to rise by £9 per year, earning an extra £22,000.

* Cut 19 Parks staff to save £660,000, leading to 50 per cent drop in maintenance.

* Sell Coles Park in Tottenham and redevelop/improve White Hart Lane Community Sports Centre, saving current annual deficit of £478,000

* Leisure centres to be privately managed, saving £500,000 by 2013

* Commercial leasing of parks facilities, saving £100,000 by 2013

* Reduced response to noise complaints, including stopping out-of-hours response service, saving £180,000.

* Scrapping neighbourhood management service, transferring key functions to other services, saving £1.4million.

* Scrap funding for police overtime for specific ‘high priority targets’, saving £305,000.

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COUNCIL (INTERNAL)

* Around 1,200 jobs - or 20 per cent of the council’s workforce - to go, including one in three managers which alone will save £2.5million. Predicted redundancy costs £25million.

* Cutbacks in mobile phone use by council staff saving £150,000.

* No free tea and coffee at council vending machines saving £50,000.

* Cutting translation budget by 60 per cent to save £120,000.

* Council buildings cleaned less often, saving £300,000.

* Redundancies in the legal dept, saving £765,000.

* Redundancies/overhaul of human resources dept, saving £504,000.

* Reduce planning dept to “one of the smallest in London”, saving £210,000.

* Staff not to make internal call to the council switchboard, saving £18,000.

* Fund IT upgrade by borrowing, plus other measures to save £1.2million.

* Merge some council committees, saving £125,000 from allowances for councillors to attend.

* Sharing economic development dept with Waltham Forest Council, saving £100,000 by 2013.

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NB - some savings are calculated beyond 2011/12 and include projected savings in 2012/13.

http://www.london24.com/news/politics/haringey_council_s_cuts_where_the_axe_will_fall_1_815354
 
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If anything the only reason they rioted was because the government started to close in on benefit fraud, so they can't claim as three or four different people any more.

What percentage are claiming more than one benefit?

Ever thought of becoming a taxi driver?
Or a Van driver in Essex?

You'd fit in perfectly.
 
@SAM. You are amazing.
You know far more about British politics than most British people do.
(no sarcasm intended)

When are you going to go into politics?


You might like these videos, showing two women's reaction to the rioting.

The first woman is a bit eccentric, but not wrong in what she says.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZcZuKLduAg&feature=related

The second woman uses a lot of foul language, but she makes a lot of sense.
I've listened to her since, on the radio, and she is a very pleasant articulate woman.
Her daughter was mortified when she saw this on TV.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCS7c__OSBw

Can you understand what these people are saying?
I find it a little difficult myself.
 
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@SAM. You are amazing.
You know far more about British politics than most British people do.
(no sarcasm intended)

Not really, I just operate on the assumption that people are the same everywhere and its usually true

When are you going to go into politics?

Never. I'm a better researcher than a speaker.


You might like these videos, showing two women's reaction to the rioting.

The first woman is a bit loopy I think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZcZu...eature=related

The second woman uses a lot of foul language, but she makes a lot of sense.
I've listened to her since, on the radio, and she is very articulate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCS7c__OSBw

Can you understand what these people are saying?
I find it a little difficult myself.

I can understand a bit of both, the first one has a thick patois which makes a lot of the words incomrprehensible but she seems to be stressing compassion and the second one is denouncing the fricking "cause" as non-existent when compared to the destruction

The women understand, better than the kids do, that the violence will rebound on them. But when those 620,000 kids lose the financial support that keeps them in school and all those old people move back in with their kids after the homes close down...its a pressure cooker in the making. This is what I don't understand. Is the government stupid? What do they think these kids are going to do when they see their futures wiped out for a financial crisis caused by the rich who get away scot free? Do they really believe their ivory towers are so inviolate?
 
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She had an interview on the radio.
As soon as I heard her I thought, mmmh, this woman can talk well.
I liked her.
I hadn't seen the video.
If I can find a link to it, I will.

The main thrust is that the riots are counter productive.
They are protesting against injustice, but doing it in a criminal way which undermines their own cause.
A good number of them must rightly spend time in prison.
She was telling them to "Get Real".

Different issue, but I believe there will be a drive to control the internet in the UK. I believe that they have at least partially succeeded in doing this in Australia.
Our newspapers are toeing the line as usual.

There is one newspaper called the Daily Mail, which attacks foreigners, asylum seekers, and people on benefits, every single day.
My brother buys it. And I always say to him, "Ah you've bought today's Der Sturmer"
Just for interest, you might like to have a look at their website.
 
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The main thrust is that the riots are counter productive.
They are protesting against injustice, but doing it in a way which undermines their own cause.
No they kicked off when a black drug dealer got shot dead. Then the rest saw all hell break lose and joined in. Phlog is right in one respect, this was not political even though the difficulties in the UK made it easier for it to happen (I doubt this would have happened during the boom times). The student protests were politicial, these were not.
 
The main thrust is that the riots are counter productive.
They are protesting against injustice, but doing it in a way which undermines their own cause.

Probably, but you expect reason and logic from kids whose futures have been sacrificed by politicians? What do they gain by not rioting?

No they kicked off when a black drug dealer got shot dead. Then the rest saw all hell break lose and joined in. Phlog is right in one respect, this was not political even though the difficulties in the UK made it easier for it to happen (I doubt this would have happened during the boom times). The student protests were politicial, these were not.

Thats like saying World War I only happened because Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated - do people outside Tottenham even know about Duggan? When the riots occur far beyond the vicinity of the incident, the cause is more widespread and the social unrest about more than the response to a single death
 
The students.
They are being screwed over,
but at least they have their literacy and numeracy.
They'll get some job, whatever it is.
And they also rioted.

This is rash, stupid anger. They are burning their neighbour's cars, and closing down local shops that they need.

What is needed is cool, prolonged, controlled anger.
They are right to be angry.
 
The students.
They are being screwed over,
but at least they have their literacy and numeracy.
They'll get some job, whatever it is.
And they also rioted.

This is rash, stupid anger. They are burning their neighbour's cars, and closing down local shops that they need.

What is needed is cool, prolonged, controlled anger.
They are right to be angry.

How does cool prolonged controlled anger work in their favour?

For example, in March 2011:

TOTTENHAM MP David Lammy has called on the Government to pull out all the stops and encourage investment in the area as unemployment creeps towards one in 10 people - the highest in more than a decade.

Figures released last week reveal there were nearly 6,300 people of working age on the dole in Tottenham in February - and one in five of them were under 24.

The number of Jobseekers’ Allowance (JSA) claimants rose by 256 on December, and is now the highest since May 2000 with eight per cent of the working-age population on the dole, double the UK average and the highest in London.

The situation is likely to worsen as Haringey Council’s vicious staffing cutbacks start to bite next month, with 1,000 jobs expected to go.

http://www.tottenhamjournal.co.uk/n...ment_reaches_double_national_average_1_837009

This situation has been simmering for a long time. Now add the students who cannot afford to go to school and the additional care of elderly relatives who lose their benefits. Plus the threat of evictions from council housing [cherry on the pie]

What would you do in their position?
 
Well if you are justifying arson, looting and homicide, that's where our opinions must diverge.
Particularly when they are destroying their own infrastructure, in an area which is already lacking in amenities.

How can that make sense?
 
Well if you are justifying arson, looting and homicide, that's where our opinions must diverge.
Particularly when they are destroying their own infrastructure, in an area which is already lacking in amenities.

How can that make sense?

You can get all morally righteous or you can discuss the situation. Revolt of the lower classes are very common and they are often expressed as riots, arson, looting, and in extreme cases like the French revolution, a massacre of the upper classes. The best way to combat a riot is to ensure that it is not repeated and unless you examine the conditions you're likely to face the same situation again. Taking revenge on individuals will not substitute for a stable social order

After all, these are not the first riots in Tottenham

I was 15 years old last time there was violent unrest on the scale witnessed in Tottenham over this weekend. The Broadwater Farm riots in 1985 were triggered by the death of Cynthia Jarrett, who suffered a stroke after police officers searched her home. Within twenty-four hours, riot police were clashing with local youths and the area was up in flames. The fallout from the riots was devastating. A police officer, Keith Blakelock, lost his life, and cracks that already existed between the police and the community became deep fissures that would take years to heal.

And the thresholds for tolerance now are lower - this is after all, the ADHD generation brought up on 5 second attention span
 
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