MR complains about being moderated

Magical Realist

Valued Senior Member
James R posted: Consider the possibility that people can disagree with one another and yet all remain nice, cordial individuals who are kind to fluffy animals and children.

Together, you and I can make this our world, axocanth! I invite you to join me for a Better Tomorrow, in which people don't feel like they need to be nasty, dirty rotten scoundrels every time they have an opinion that clashes with the other guy's

You would be better off demonstrating that moral ideal with your own behavior rather than preaching it like some sleazy evangelist. You belittle and mock and insult me almost constantly just for posting ideas and evidence that contradict your scientistic beliefs. Don't believe me? Just do a search of "stupid" used in all of your posts. If you really want people here to be more kind and well-mannered and civilized, start with yourself!
 
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You would be better off demonstrating that moral ideal with your own behavior rather than preaching it like some sleazy evangelist. You belittle and mock and insult me almost constantly just for posting ideas and evidence that contradict your scientistic beliefs. Don't believe me? Just do a search of "stupid" used in all of your posts. If you really want people here to be more kind and well-mannered and civilized, start with yourself!
Just look at how often you have been suspended though, for trolling and dishonesty. You forfeited any reasonable expectation of politeness years ago.
 
Just look at how often you have been suspended though, for trolling and dishonesty. You forfeited any reasonable expectation of politeness years ago.
Just look at the person doing all the suspending. The very person who abuses me and treats me like his whipping boy. The broad and vague offense of "trolling" becomes his standard excuse for banning me when it is really just about my posting of ideas and opinions he doesn't agree with. It's his way of censoring heresy from his online temple of scientism.
 
Weariness prevails. I have some respect for both sides of the altercation now playing out, but anyone calling Daniel Dennett a dirty scoundrel will experience a hiatus in my sympathies. If the rhetoric can be dialed back a bit, I will get back to this.
 
Just look at the person doing all the suspending. The very person who abuses me and treats me like his whipping boy. The broad and vague offense of "trolling" becomes his standard excuse for banning me when it is really just about my posting of ideas and opinions he doesn't agree with. It's his way of censoring heresy from his online temple of scientism.
Ah diddums. :(
 
Moderator note: The current thread was split off from another thread.

Magical Realist complains regularly about being expected to follow the sciforums posting guidelines. I think it is probably useful to have a single thread where we can collect all of MR's complaints about being moderated in one place. So, here it is.
 
Magical Realist himself started a thread in this subforum back in July of this year, complained about one of the manyother times he was moderated. I would have put his current round of complaints in with his previous ones, except that he was so dishonest in that thread that I closed it. The relevant thread, for anybody who gives a damn, is here:


Let's face it: some people are very slow learners. And some are simply trolls who are trying to game the system. It has always been a bit of a lottery when it comes to deciding which category MR falls into. I'm currently leaning towards not-very-bright troll.

At the time of writing, Magical Realist has received a total of 80 official warnings over a period of around 10 years. He has been temporarily banned a number of times, each time after he accumulated a string of warnings in a short enough time frame to trigger an automatic ban in accordance with our published policies. He has come within a whisker of been permanently banned from sciforums a couple of times, but due to the forgiving way our ban system was set up a person usually needs to show some determination to actually attract a permanent ban. Magical Realist has always wanted to remain a member here and so far he has managed to hold onto the idea that if he gets too many warnings in a 6 month period that will be equivalent in effect to his choosing to leave.

Magical Realist plays dumb quite a lot in his threads. He pretends not to remember information that he has been given in the past. He makes ridiculous assertions regularly and clings to them long after being shown to be in error beyond any reasonable doubt. He often tells lies, but usually isn't quite clever enough to get away with telling them. He is constantly caught out.

Magical Realist gets irate whenever he is held to account for his behaviours. He likes especially to lash out at the moderators who handle matters when his posts are reported. His favourite ploy is to claim that the moderators are persecuting him because he tells a Truth that the moderators just can't abide. He likes to think of himself as a fearless defender of his Truth, struggling against the oppressive regime that wants to suppress it and to punish him for his daring rebelliousness and originality.

This kind of reaction to moderation is not uncommon. What is uncommon is that Magical Realist likes to repeatedly bash his head against the wall, metaphorically speaking. In over 10 years, he has apparently learned nothing from repeating the same behaviours over and over again, with the same results. It takes a special kind of bullheadedness to do that.

Anyway, now there's a place we can all come to hear his latest whining about how ill-treated he is. Him, the man with 80 warnings who has learned nothing in 10 years, if we are to take him at face value.
 
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Just look at the person doing all the suspending. The very person who abuses me and treats me like his whipping boy. The broad and vague offense of "trolling" becomes his standard excuse for banning me ...
The thing is, you do not have clean hands. You have been dishonest enough that you've forfeited any benefit of the doubt, and are justifiably put on a short leash.

And it's not just James. Virtually everyone that has engaged you disagrees with you to the point of abuse (certainly in the UAPs thread). Even your erstwhile best ally is only able to support you by doing so at arms-length. If you want to complain about being mistreated, directing it at James is misguided.

when it is really just about my posting of ideas and opinions he doesn't agree with.

No it really isn't.

You have been caught out in lies multiple times, and when called on them, you double and triple down. You are a known troller, whether you feign innocence or not. This is a matter of public record - one that we have all lived through in real time - including you - and is irrefutable.

The suspensions are designed to encourage you to modify your behavior to one more suitable to the disposition of this forum. You are being told how you are expected to behave (honestly, and in good faith) and yet you are not doing so.

You can't change the past; your history won't be expunged. If you really want to be free of the yoke of troll and liar, your remedy is to
1] admit it
2] apologize for it
3] promise to stop doing it
4] actually stop doing it
5] have patience until (if) people start trusting you again.


Oh, and maybe stop saying things like this:
censoring heresy from his online temple of scientism.
This is a child's attitude. Grown ups take responsibility for their own actions and don't blame others for those others' rightful actions.


And you always seem to forget: the temple door is right there, you are free to use it any time you want. No - you here here of your own free will, right where you want to be.
 
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To Magical Realist:

I see you took the opportunity to jump on the anti-James R band wagon when you noticed somebody else driving it past. That comes as no surprise at all.
You would be better off demonstrating that moral ideal with your own behavior rather than preaching it like some sleazy evangelist.
And then you try to take the moral high ground? Seriously?

Look to the rather large beam in your own eye before remarking the mote in another's, as they say. Now there's some evangelism for you.

You belittle and mock and insult me almost constantly just for posting ideas and evidence that contradict your scientistic beliefs.
You are fully aware that this is a lie. I have never mocked or insulted you for that.

I don't find your belief in every conceivable kind of woo at all threatening to my "scientistic beliefs", Magical Realist. Surely you must have got an inkling of that by now?

I no longer even accept that you really believe all that crap. You tell so many lies, and your village idiot act long ago lost all plausibility. Nobody who writes as coherently as you can (when you try) is as stupid as the character you play on this forum.

You're not real, Magical Realist. You're a caricature. Perhaps you weren't that way 10 years ago, but this is the house you've built for yourself. It's not something I could be proud of. I don't think you really are, either. Your antics are obviously making you unhappy.
Don't believe me? Just do a search of "stupid" used in all of your posts.
The precious diddums act doesn't fly any more, either, MR. You're not oppressed. You're not unfairly treated. You've made yourself into a clown, and people laugh at clowns. What did you expect?
Just look at the person doing all the suspending.
Wake up, MR! Internet forums have moderators. This one currently has very few. Somebody has to do the job and I volunteer to do it. Some people here appreciate my work.
The very person who abuses me and treats me like his whipping boy. The broad and vague offense of "trolling" becomes his standard excuse for banning me when it is really just about my posting of ideas and opinions he doesn't agree with. It's his way of censoring heresy from his online temple of scientism.
Next time you get yourself a warning, we'll see you tell this same lie again, no doubt.

Compare the last iteration, in the thread I linked above, for example.

The fact is: this is what you do every time you behave badly and are held to account.

Who do you think you'll fooling? Maybe some newbies will be sympathetic to your pathetic plight and hit the "like" button on your complaints out of a misguided and uninformed solidarity with you. But anybody who has payed attention to this forum for 5 minutes will be equipped to make a more informed and wise judgment.
 
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Beliefs based strictly on evidence tend to be true despite one's biases. That's the wonder of science. That we can attain real knowledge about the world even though every one of us is laden with subjective biases and assumptions.
Making your own shit up and not acknowledging it's your own shit made up is not a path to truth; it's not science and it is certainly not a path to "real" knowledge.

Knowingly telling a falsehood is calling lying.


That is not a lie because I really do believe it to be true.,

MR wants to retry his case. He wants someone to bring it back into the courtroom for him, because he can't do it himself without incriminating himself in the process. That's why he keeps demanding references - references to things that are on-record, and that he knows exactly where to find. He wants the onus on his accusers to re-accuse him, because he failed his original defense.

A non-troll would take their lumps, accept responsibility and would change their behaviour so as to go forward not continuing to troll and lie.


But sure. Let's lay it out AGAIN.

The lie comes in here (wait for it, it comes at the end):

- MR recounts a witness account (OK)
- MR inserts his own beliefs (such as "lit windows") into the description (this is deceitful, but can yet be corrected)
- MR is called out on inserting his own conclusions in what was ostensibly a description i.e. MR is simply told that he made that part up, that it was not part of the witness account (no harm no foul yet)
- MR then explicitly repeats the made up part as if it is part of the description of the account and not something he made up. (this is the lie)

Here's why: As you point out, a lie is knowingly telling a falsehood.

You knew that there is no mention in the account of lit windows. You kept saying the UAP had lit windows, even when called out that that is not true.


So, making something up is not the lie, and being called out for making something up is not a lie.
But repeatedly posting it when you know you made it up - because it is on-record as having been inserted by you and you were called out to acknowledge it - that is the lie. Repeating "lit windows" in your account multiple times, rather than acknowledging you inserted that term yourself was knowingly telling a falsehood.

To be clear: No one takes umbrage with your belief that the windows might have been lit. But you were called out for making that up and asked to acknowledge that you made it up. Not only did not you correct that misdirection, but you continued to repeat it, even after you knew it was challeged as not true and made up.

All you had to do was say "OK, yes. That part was inserted by me. It was not mentioned anywhere in the account".



And it's not a mistake because
1] You had several chances in-thread to correct it, and you didn't.
2] Instead you re-asserted it several times, even in the shadow of it being called out as made up.
3] You've been schooled several times on what, where and how the lie occurred (and we'll add +1 to this number now), so you know better.
4] You have used the same deceitful ploy elsewhere, since.


FFS.
 
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I would just add my own worthless useless observation that, during my short time here, I've found Magical Realist to be intelligent, civil, and offering a great deal of food for thought for all to consider. A breath of fresh air compared to some of the decidedly nastier elements on the site.

In "Plato's Beard", for example, he inspired a valuable exchange of thought, arguing intelligently and knowledgably -- unlike the usual trolls who entered purely to ridicule and harass, and who clearly do not know the first thing about the subject matter (i.e. philosophy of language).

I'd say the same for another member, Yazata -- wonderfully intelligent and knowledgeable -- who seems also to be the subject of interminable and shameless bullying and imputations of dishonesty from the mindless Red Guards of scientism. He seems to have gone quiet, perhaps harassed into submission (I hope not).

What kind of site do you really want here? One where all assembled cease thinking entirely and join in the chorus of "Scientism, rah rah rah"?
 
Perhaps if one feature of fanatical scientism defines it above all others, it is this: "Heretics are not only stupid and wrong, but liars, every one of them".

Religious wackos of varying stripes all over the world do the same.

Bet your bottom dollar that when the absurdities of our resident Red Guards are exposed (e.g. 2 + 2 does not necessarily equal 4), you will immediately be branded a liar and a troll. I should know!



Edit: Indeed, one has to wonder that if the Red Guards succeed in bullying all heretics into silence, the site will be left with nothing but a proliferation of threads bearing titles such as "God is Crap" and "All Creationists are Stupid Hillbilly Liars" -- evidently an intellectual limit above which our resident Red Guards are unable to transcend.
 
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Let's face it: some people are very slow learners.
While I can understand mod frustrations, I fear that P-A lines like this can cloud the distinction between moderating and bickering. Its indirectness, though perhaps well-meaning, actually makes it more snarky than just saying I think member X is a dummy. The use of a sort of collegial "Let's face it," when you are actually delivering an insult from yourself to member X, just doesn't work IMO.

Also, the impression gained here is that you and Dave both hold MR to be a deliberate and chronic liar. If this is really the case, and you really believe the integrity of this website is threatened by such, I am baffled as to why he remains a member. This sends the sort of mixed message that I usually associate with abusive relationships: You are so bad, but please stick around because I like punishing you. Again, this seems to undermine moderation and site policing, and makes the place look like a SMBD den. Either keep MR around and be nice, or show him the door.
 
While I can understand mod frustrations, I fear that P-A lines like this can cloud the distinction between moderating and bickering. Its indirectness, though perhaps well-meaning, actually makes it more snarky than just saying I think member X is a dummy. The use of a sort of collegial "Let's face it," when you are actually delivering an insult from yourself to member X, just doesn't work IMO.
We've been at this for about ten years.

James has been polite and gentle for the first six years or so of trolling. You're sort of coming in after a half decade of this. In all this time, MR has not been banned for longer than a few weeks at a time.

Also, the impression gained here is that you and Dave both hold MR to be a deliberate and chronic liar. If this is really the case, and you really believe the integrity of this website is threatened by such, I am baffled as to why he remains a member.
I have raised this point myself. This is what I have come to understand:

(At the risk of speaking out-of-turn) SciFo's policy is pretty liberal when it comes to free speech, and doesn't like to use banning as a form of censorship.

I'm not sure why you think the site's integrity might be threatened. If that were the case, yes, I'd say he should be boosted. But he's just a guy who makes stuff up. SciFo has ways of dealing with it, and is doing so.

Yes, it sucks for eveyone else to have to tolerate. On this, you and I agree. I believe it has driven away a lot of good people.

This sends the sort of mixed message that I usually associate with abusive relationships: You are so bad, but please stick around because I like punishing you.
Bad analogy. Nobody is capable of begging, let alone making, anyone stay.

MR has been gently and not so gently directed towards appropriate behavior and has chosen not to avail himself of it. He brooks this place quite willingly.

The privilege of free speech (it is not a right on a private forum) means you get to say any dishonest things you want. It does not protect you from being dragged for saying any dishonest thing you want.


Of note: as long as MR doesn't troll, he is treated with the respect of any other member. If you look through virtually any other thread that isn't in the Monsters and Aliens forum, you will see MR appearing to act in good faith - and myself, James R and others fall all over ourselves to engage in good faith discussion.

Again, this seems to undermine moderation and site policing, and makes the place look like a SMBD den. Either keep MR around and be nice, or show him the door.
I am not sure that is on any morally higher ground. It would put some wind in the sails of MR's complaint of being censored for his beliefs. Were you to start your own forum with such a policy, you would have as many (perhaps more) detractors.

In short: I'd say James R expects and assumes people are adults, and take responsibility for their own actions. If someone doesn't want to act like an adult, they already know where the door is.
 
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I'm not sure why you think the site's integrity might be threatened. If that were the case, yes, I'd say he should be boosted. But he's just a guy who makes stuff up. SciFo has ways of dealing with it, and is doing so.
First, thanks, you made some clarifications on free speech policy. Second, I don't think site integrity is necessarily threatened by content - I was noticing the sheer wordcount devoted to pushing back against one poster, and wondering if the atmosphere thus created was itself somewhat deleterious. I'm not suggesting anyone be banned, just wondering if you all would benefit from a Speculations (including wild ones, with slipshod science and X-Files weirdness) forum, where MR et al could post material that would elsewhere in ScFo be violating standards and rules. This would seem to save everyone time, and fuss.

Maybe it's been tried already. Really, I'm still too new to know anything.
 
Of note: as long as MR doesn't troll, he is treated with the respect of any other member. If you look through virtually any other thread that isn't in the Monsters and Aliens forum, you will see MR appearing to act in good faith - and myself, James R and others fall all over ourselves to engage in good faith discussion.

That fact in itself proves that I'm not a troll at all. I mean how does one go thru all the effort and time of pretending to believe provocative things in one subforum and then suddenly change into an honest and engaging poster in all the others? Why would any sane person do that? It's because I'm only lambasted as a troll, along with all the other labels of being stupid and gullible and a whacko, when I'm posting evidence and arguments for things that James vehemently disagrees with. IOW, toe the line here and go along with the groupthink of scientism and you will be embraced and liked like a loyal comrade. But defect from the sacred credo and propose heretical ideas that are threatening to that worldview and you are immediately labeled and banned as a troll who is always lying and trying to disrupt the status quo.
 
Since joining the site recently, I do not believe I have seen Magical Realist even once enter someone else's thread to ridicule and harass -- a fairly standard definition of trolling.

I've seen plenty of others do it though. All your fave Red Guard regular posters. Want a list and links?
 
IOW, toe the line here and go along with the groupthink of scientism and you will be embraced and liked like a loyal comrade. But defect from the sacred credo and propose heretical ideas that are threatening to that worldview and you are immediately labeled and banned as a troll who is always lying and trying to disrupt the status quo.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

One more thing, as noted earlier, correcting the manifest absurdities of our resident Red Guards -- evidently not supposed to be challenged -- immediately incurs the accusation of being a troll and a liar.

I'll happily compose a list of that too if you want.
 
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