Muslim Morality

[WildBlueYonder]

Just wondering if Mohammad was a champion of Morality or not:

1. Arab code of honor violated by Mohammad when:
a. he broke the Treaty of Hudaybiyya
b. made war during Ramadan on entering Mecca armed

2. Took advantage of:
a. Women- marrying rich (Khadijah), then marrying often (Aisha, 11 others)
b. Arabs- by subverting & using their new-found inquiry of religion (Hanifs) to establish islam

3. example of Mohammad as the perfect man?
a. revenge, pettiness, murderous, slavery.
b. lies, deceit, banditry, plunder, rape.
c. emphasis is on externals only; jihad of the mind should be celebrated & those that lived it should be given heaven, not those that died in jihad of the sword, as is then & today, what kind of god rewards killers with 72 perpetual virgins, wine, personal paradise?

4. the early years vs the later ones
once Khadijah died, Mohammad couldn’t contain himself on 3 fronts:
a. sex, witness all his wives after her death
b. pride, witness his delegating all woman to 3rd class status, since she was his better
c. revenge, witness all the assassinations of his detractors


So those thoughts naturally lead to these:
5. where are the great MLK’s & Gandhi’s of islam, in:
a. human rights
b. peace
c. ecology
d. politics
e. philanthropy
f. futurists


the many wives of Mohammad
from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad's_marriages

1. Khadijah bint Khuwaylid(older, business owner, rich, his boss, first convert)

2. Aisha bint Abu Bakr (9 years old)

3. Sawda bint Zama

4. Hafsa bint Umar

5. Zaynab bint Khuzayma

6. Umm Salama Hind bint Abi Umayya

7. Zaynab bint Jahsh (stolen from his adopted son)

8. Juwayriya bint al-Harith

9. Ramlah binte Abi-Sufyan

10. Safiyya bint Huyayy

11. Maymuna bint al-Harith

12. Maria al-Qibtiyya (chrisitan slave)

13. Raihanah bint Zaid (jewish slave)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Muhammad

Koelle finds "the key to the first period of Muhammad's life in Khadija, his first wife," after whose death he became prey to his "evil passions."

 

[Carcano]

Women, Wealth and Warfare!

The three big differences between Jesus and Mohammed.

Jesus abstained from all three...Mohammed did not.

 

[S.A.M.]

Women, Wealth and Warfare!

The three big differences between Jesus and Mohammed.

Jesus abstained from all three...Mohammed did not.

What exactly do you know about Jesus? And how?

Also, how much money did Mohammed have?

 

[John99]

Also, how much money did Mohammed have?

some can never have enough.

 

[Carcano]

What exactly do you know about Jesus? And how?

Also, how much money did Mohammed have?

No one knows anything about Jesus, or if he even existed. What we can do however is suppose he was antagonistic towards wealth from the biblical evidence.

I dont know how much Mohammed had, but we can assume he was wealthy based on the number of wives and slaves he possesed.

 

[S.A.M.]

No one knows anything about Jesus, or if he even existed. What we can do however is suppose he was antagonistic towards wealth from the biblical evidence.

I dont know how much Mohammed had, but we can assume he was wealthy based on the number of wives and slaves he possesed.

Huh? You mean his wives and slaves did not work?

 

[Carcano]

Huh? You mean his wives and slaves did not work?

Why would I mean that?

 

[S.A.M.]

Why would I mean that?

Since his first wife supported him? He was in her employ.

 

[Carcano]

Since his first wife supported him? He was in her employ.

He was also penniless at birth...so?

When he became a political leader and had armies, multiple wives and slaves in his possession we can say he was wealthy...and did not preach against wealth, as Jesus did.

 

[S.A.M.]

He was also penniless at birth...so?

When he became a political leader and had armies, multiple wives and slaves in his possession we can say he was wealthy...and did not preach against wealth, as Jesus did.

You're speaking from a Western point of view, and probably looking at the Sauds for an example. Muhammed never had any money and was said to have stitched his own cap and shoes; he was known among his peers as one who gave away what he had.

Muhammad led a very ordinary life yet the life style he practiced offered an example for others to follow. So this is an invitation to search through the Prophet (s.a.w.s.) lifestyle and adopt what he did in his daily activities.

To start with read what Al Hasan (son of Ali) said about the Prophet of Allah (s.a.w.s.) “Doors are not locked under him, nor do door keepers stand for him, and trays of food are not served to him in the morning or the evening. He sits on the ground and eats his food from the ground. He wears coarse (rough) clothes and rides on a donkey with others sitting behind him, and he licks his fingers after taking food.”

 

[Carcano]

Muhammed never had any money and was said to have stitched his own cap and shoes; he was known among his peers as one who gave away what he had.

How do you know Bill Gates doesnt do his own sewing?

If I give away a million dollars but still have a hundred million left...that doesnt make me poor.

 

[S.A.M.]

How do you know Bill Gates doesnt do his own sewing?

If I give away a million dollars but still have a hundred million left...that doesnt make me poor.

True but I would like something more than your opinion.

e.g.

Before his mission as a prophet, Muhammad had no financial worries. As a successful and reputed merchant, Muhammad drew a satisfactory and comfortable income. After his mission as a prophet there is a sharp decline as regards his financial status.

To clarify this more, let us reflect on the following saying of his wife `A’ishah describing their simple life. She addressed her nephew `Abdullah ibn Az-Zubair (may Allah be pleased with him) saying: “O my nephew, we would sight three new moons in two months without lighting a fire (to cook a meal) in the Prophet’s houses.” Her nephew asked, “O Aunt, what was your foodstuff then?” She said, “The two black things, dates and water, but the Prophet had some Ansar neighbors who had she-camels and they used to send the Prophet some milk.”

`Amr ibn Al-Harith (may Allah be pleased with him) said that when the Prophet died, he left neither money nor anything else except his white riding mule, his shield, and a piece of land which he left to charity.

Despite his responsibilities as a prophet, a teacher, a statesman, and a judge, Muhammad used to milk his goat, patch his clothes, mend his shoes, help his family with the household work, and visit poor people when they got sick. He also helped his Companions in digging a trench by moving sand with them. His life was an amazing model of simplicity and humbleness.

 

[Michael]

from the Catholic Encyclopedia

(2) Morals

It is hardly necessary here to emphasize the fact that the ethics of Islam are far inferior to those of Judaism and even more inferior to those of the New Testament. Furthermore, we cannot agree with Noldeke when he maintains that, although in many respects the ethics of Islam are not to be compared even with such Christianity as prevailed, and still prevails, in the East, nevertheless, in other points, the new faith — simple, robust, in the vigour of its youth — far surpassed the religion of the Syrian and Egyptian Christians, which was in a stagnating condition, and steadily sinking lower and lower into the depths of barbarism (op. cit., Wollaston, 71, 72). The history and the development, as well as the past and presentreligious, social, and ethical condition of all the Christian nations and countries, no matter of what sect or school they may be, as compared with these of the various Mohammedan countries, in all ages, is a sufficient refutation of Noldeke's assertion. That in the ethics of Islam there is a great deal to admire and to approve, is beyond dispute; but of originality or superiority, there is none. What is really good in Mohammedan ethics is either commonplace or borrowed from some other religions, whereas what is characteristic is nearly always imperfect or wicked.

The principal sins forbidden by Mohammed are idolatry and apostasy, adultery, false witness against a brother Moslem, games of chance, the drinking of wine or other intoxicants, usury, and divination by arrows. Brotherly love is confined in Islam to Mohammedans. Any form of idolatry or apostasy is severely punished in Islam, but the violation of any of the other ordinances is generally allowed to go unpunished, unless it seriously conflicts with the social welfare or the political order of the State. Among other prohibitions mention must be made of the eating of blood, of swine's flesh, of whatever dies of itself, or is slain in honour of any idol, or is strangled, or killed by a blow, or a fall, or by another beast. In case of dire necessity, however, these restrictions may be dispensed with. Infanticide, extensively practiced by the pre-Islamic Arabs, is strictly forbidden by Mohammed, as is also the sacrificing of children to idols in fulfilment of vows, etc. The crime of infanticide commonly took the form of burying newborn females, lest the parents should be reduced to poverty by providing for them, or else that they might avoid the sorrow and disgrace which would follow, if their daughters should be madecaptives or become scandalous by their behaviour.

Religion and the State are not separated in Islam. Hence Mohammedan jurisprudence, civil and criminal, is mainly based on the Koran and on the "Traditions". Thousands of judicial decisions are attributed to Mohammed and incorporated in the various collections of Hadith. Mohammed commanded reverence andobedience to parents, and kindness to wives and slaves. Slander and backbiting are strongly denounced, although false evidence is allowed to hide a Moslem's crime and to save his reputation or life.

As regards marriage, polygamy, and divorce, the Koran explicitly (sura iv, v. 3) allows four lawful wives at a time, whom the husband may divorce whenever he pleases. Slave-mistresses and concubines are permitted in any number. At present, however, owing to economic reasons, concubinage is not as commonly practiced as Western popular opinion seems to hold. Seclusion of wives is commanded, and in case of unfaithfulness, the wife's evidence, either in her own defense or against her husband, is not admitted, while that of the husband invariably is. In this, as in there judicial cases, the evidence of two women, if admitted, is sometimes allowed to be worth that of one man. The man is allowed to repudiate his wife on the slightest pretext, but the woman is not permitted even to separate herself from her husband unless it be for ill-usage, want of proper maintenance, or neglect of conjugal duty; and even then she generally loses her dowry, when she does not if divorced by her husband, unless she has been guilty of immodesty or notorious disobedience. Both husband and wife are explicitly forbidden by Mohammed to seek divorce on any slight occasion or the prompting of a whim, but this warning was not heeded either by Mohammed himself or by his followers. A divorced wife, in order to ascertain the paternity of a possible or probable offspring, must wait three months before she marries again. A widow, on the other hand, must wait four months and ten days. Immorality in general is severely condemned and punished by the Koran, but the moral laxity and depraved sensualism of the Mohammedans at large have practically nullified its effects.

Slavery is not only tolerated in the Koran, but is looked upon as a practical necessity, while the manumission of slaves is regarded as a meritorious deed. It must be observed, however, that among Mohammedans, the children of slaves and of concubines are generally considered equally legitimate with those of legal wives, none being accounted bastards except such as are born of public prostitutes, and whose fathers are unknown. The accusation often brought against the Koran that it teaches that women have no souls is without foundation. The Koranic law concerning inheritance insists that women and orphans be treated with justice and kindness. Generally speaking, however, males are entitled to twice as much as females. Contracts are to be conscientiously drawn up in the presence of witnesses. Murder, manslaughter, and suicide are explicitly forbidden, although blood revenge is allowed. In case of personal injury, the law of retaliation is approved.

In conclusion, reference must be made here to the sacred months, and to the weekly holy day. The Arabs had a year of twelve lunar months, and this, as often as seemed necessary, they brought roughly into accordance with the solar year by the intercalation of a thirteenth month. The Mohammedan year, however, has a mean duration of 354 days, and is ten or eleven days shorter than the solar year, and Mohammedan festivals, accordingly, move in succession through all the seasons.

 

[Michael]

I personally think morality is based on the values of society and morality changes with time.
Unfortunately for Islam it is relatively fixed and seems to stagnate around the moral hood of 7th century Xian/Jew mixed with nomadic Arabs. There is nothing morally novel in the Qur'an it just sort of rehashes the the then moral view of the world. Thus, it seems, many Muslim countries sort of hover around a 7th century mindset. Slavery is a good example, sadly it was the European and American pressure that banned slavery in Islamic coutnries - not Muslims. That's a fact of history. They just did not enmass recognize that Slavery is morally repugnant.


Did Mohammad ever kill anyone or ever command that one of his followers kill someone? If so who and under what circumstances?

 

[S.A.M.]

from the Catholic Encyclopedia

Er, great, I'm sure they all read the original in Arabic and have given an educated opinion.

 

[S.A.M.]

I personally think morality is based on the values of society and morality changes with time.
Unfortunately for Islam it is relatively fixed and seems to stagnate around the moral hood of 7th century Xian/Jew mixed with nomadic Arabs. There is nothing morally novel in the Qur'an it just sort of rehashes the the then moral view of the world. Thus, it seems, many Muslim countries sort of hover around a 7th century mindset. Slavery is a good example, sadly it was the European and American pressure that banned slavery in Islamic coutnries - not Muslims. That's a fact of history. They just did not enmass recognize that Slavery is morally repugnant.


Did Mohammad ever kill anyone or ever command that one of his followers kill someone? If so who and under what circumstances?

You do realise that your view is retrospective?

 

[Michael]

Er, great, I'm sure they all read the original in Arabic and have given an educated opinion.

Actually I think their authors have. They are renown for their diligent scholastic work. I suppose no sex could do that to a person Not to mention many Catholic's are fluent in Arabic and were raised speaking Arabic and there are Catholics that are Arab Muslims who converted or became Atheist and continue with their research.

I've know Catholic scholars and Priests that are openly agnostic.

Anyway, in general that encyclpedia is going to be biast towards Xiantiy.

This was their take on Buddhism:

Buddha may be credited with the qualities of a great and good man. The records depict him moving about from place to place, regardless of personal comfort, calm and fearless, mild and compassionate, considerate towards poor and rich alike, absorbed with the one idea of freeing all men from the bonds of misery, and irresistible in his manner of setting forth the way of deliverance. In his mildness, his readiness to overlook insults, his zeal, chastity, and simplicity of life, he reminds one not a little of St. Francis of Assisi. In all pagan antiquity no character has been depicted as so noble and attractive.

In theory, the moral code of Buddhism was little more than a copy of that of Brahminism. Like the latter, it extended to thoughts and desires, no less than to words and deeds. Unchastity in all its forms, drunkenness, lying, stealing, envy, pride, harshness are fittingly condemned. But what, perhaps, brings Buddhism most strikingly in contact with Christianity is its spirit of gentleness and forgiveness of injuries. To cultivate benevolence towards men of all classes, to avoid anger and physical violence, to be patient under insult, to return good for evil &151; all this was inculated in Buddhism and helped to make it one of the gentlest of religions. To such an extent was this carried that the Buddhist monk, like the Brahmin ascetic, had to avoid with the greatest care the destruction of any form of animal life.

Pretty generous no?

Was Buddha retrospective?

You do realise that your view is retrospective?

Well yes, but one could expect that, Oh I don't know, GOD could have revealed something or something [see above moral code of Buddha ]

As GOD can do anything it could have easily given Mohammad the words that could sway any person against slavery. (or polygamy for that matter). One must assume that Mohammad's God doesn't mind Institutionalized Slavery. It is not morally wrong to own a human.

Morality is a personal perspective.

I find Slavery and Polygamy repulsive - Mohammad did not.
Just a difference of opinion between two men.

That said, in the modern Western and now Eastern world most people side with me and think Slavery and Polygamy is immoral. Actually, the Chinese citizens under their Atheistic Communist government could be considered moral by that standard as women were liberated and given equality and Slavery was banned. As I said before you must find it interesting that the Chinese government could do in a couple years what Muslims never did in 1400. Ban slavery and make women legally equal to men.


Also: Did Mohammad ever kill anyone or ever command that one of his followers kill someone? If so who and under what circumstances?

 

[Carcano]

Whats this? The Goddess of a thousand links provides no reference???

"To clarify this more, let us reflect on the following saying of his wife `A’ishah describing their simple life. She addressed her nephew `Abdullah ibnAz-Zubair saying: “O my nephew, we would sight three new moons in two months without lighting a fire (to cook a meal) in the Prophet’s houses.” Her nephew asked, “O Aunt, what was your foodstuff then?” She said, “The two black things, dates and water, but the Prophet had some Ansar neighbors who had she-camels and they used to send the Prophet some milk.”

I can just picture it. Mohammed sitting in the courtyard mending his socks...with nothing to eat but dates.

While his large collection of wives and slaves plays backgammon all day.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

You're speaking from a Western point of view, and probably looking at the Sauds for an example. Muhammed never had any money and was said to have stitched his own cap and shoes; he was known among his peers as one who gave away what he had.

you conveniently forgot plunder, 20% went to allah & his messenger, please google plunder, Mohammad led over 60 raids, he was a bandit before he became a king

The quote below is unattributed, please provide source link

Muhammad led a very ordinary life yet the life style he practiced offered an example for others to follow. So this is an invitation to search through the Prophet (s.a.w.s.) lifestyle and adopt what he did in his daily activities.

To start with read what Al Hasan (son of Ali) said about the Prophet of Allah (s.a.w.s.) “Doors are not locked under him, nor do door keepers stand for him, and trays of food are not served to him in the morning or the evening. He sits on the ground and eats his food from the ground. He wears coarse (rough) clothes and rides on a donkey with others sitting behind him, and he licks his fingers after taking food.”

48:18 Allah's Good Pleasure was on the Believers when they swore Fealty to thee under the Tree: He knew what was in their hearts, and He sent down Tranquillity to them; and He rewarded them with a speedy Victory;
48:19 And many gains will they acquire (besides): and Allah is Exalted in Power, Full of Wisdom.
48:20 Allah has promised you many gains that ye shall acquire, and He has given you these beforehand; and He has restrained the hands of men from you; that it may be a Sign for the Believers, and that He may guide you to a Straight Path;
48:21 And other gains (there are), which are not within your power, but which Allah has compassed: and Allah has power over all things.
48:21 And other gains (there are), which are not within your power, but which Allah has compassed: and Allah has power over all things.
48:22 If the Unbelievers should fight you, they would certainly turn their backs; then would they find neither protector nor helper.

from: http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/048.asp

read this, I'll reduce after a week to just the link & a small snip

Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 53:
One-fifth of Booty to the Cause of Allah (Khumus)

Volume 4, Book 53, Number 324:
Narrated Ali:
I got a she-camel in my share of the war booty on the day (of the battle) of Badr, and the Prophet had given me a she-camel from the Khumus. When I intended to marry Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle, I had an appointment with a goldsmith from the tribe of Bani Qainuqa' to go with me to bring Idhkhir (i.e. grass of pleasant smell) and sell it to the goldsmiths and spend its price on my wedding party. I was collecting for my she-camels equipment of saddles, sacks and ropes while my two she-camels were kneeling down beside the room of an Ansari man. I returned after collecting whatever I collected, to see the humps of my two she-camels cut off and their flanks cut open and some portion of their livers was taken out. When I saw that state of my two she-camels, I could not help weeping. I asked, "Who has done this?" The people replied, "Hamza bin Abdul Muttalib who is staying with some Ansari drunks in this house." I went away till I reached the Prophet and Zaid bin Haritha was with him. The Prophet noticed on my face the effect of what I had suffered, so the Prophet asked. "What is wrong with you." I replied, "O Allah's Apostle! I have never seen such a day as today. Hamza attacked my two she-camels, cut off their humps, and ripped open their flanks, and he is sitting there in a house in the company of some drunks." The Prophet then asked for his covering sheet, put it on, and set out walking followed by me and Zaid bin Haritha till he came to the house where Hamza was. He asked permission to enter, and they allowed him, and they were drunk. Allah's Apostle started rebuking Hamza for what he had done, but Hamza was drunk and his eyes were red. Hamza looked at Allah's Apostle and then he raised his eyes, looking at his knees, then he raised up his eyes looking at his umbilicus, and again he raised up his eyes look in at his face. Hamza then said, "Aren't you but the slaves of my father?" Allah's Apostle realized that he was drunk, so Allah's Apostle retreated, and we went out with him.


Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325:
Narrated 'Aisha:
(mother of the believers) After the death of Allah 's Apostle Fatima the daughter of Allah's Apostle asked Abu Bakr As-Siddiq to give her, her share of inheritance from what Allah's Apostle had left of the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) which Allah had given him. Abu Bakr said to her, "Allah's Apostle said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqa (to be used for charity)." Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah's Apostle.
She used to ask Abu Bakr for her share from the property of Allah's Apostle which he left at Khaibar, and Fadak, and his property at Medina (devoted for charity). Abu Bakr refused to give her that property and said, "I will not leave anything Allah's Apostle used to do, because I am afraid that if I left something from the Prophet's tradition, then I would go astray." (Later on) Umar gave the Prophet's property (of Sadaqa) at Medina to 'Ali and 'Abbas, but he withheld the properties of Khaibar and Fadak in his custody and said, "These two properties are the Sadaqa which Allah's Apostle used to use for his expenditures and urgent needs. Now their management is to be entrusted to the ruler." (Az-Zuhrl said, "They have been managed in this way till today.")

from: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/053.sbt.html

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Since his first wife supported him? He was in her employ.

this may be why women were relegated to 3rd class status in islam, after Khadijah's death, he was free to marry, make rules,You’ll notice he never married others until after her death, in their marriage bed, she may have worn the pants

since he seems to have carried grudges, someone must have made fun of him previously about that situation, that may be why he became a prophet, so that he could gain status over her, he used up her money in Abyssinia & Medina before he took up banditry

I mean, he did marry the boss after all, he married into money, here in the US, he'd be labeled a "gold digger"