On theist-secular relations

[wynn]

I recently had to take a course and a test to obtain a certificate in first aid.
There, we were reminded that by EU laws, we, as citizens, are obligated to provide first aid to everyone in need of it.
The issue was discussed whether in this regard, we have to help street junkies, homeless people, people who have evidently committed suicide.
And by law, we have to.
That made me think that we are legally obligated to help theists.

So I am legally obligated to help someone who despises me to my core, and who claims to have divine justification for doing so.


If theists believe that they are so much better than ordinary people, then why don't the theists exclude themselves from secular society altogether?

 

[dumb dude]

You are legally obligated to do a lot of things which directly or indirectly involve other human beings, irrespective of their beliefs. So, stop thinking useless stuff and do what is important in life.

 

[Bells]

I recently had to take a course and a test to obtain a certificate in first aid.
There, we were reminded that by EU laws, we, as citizens, are obligated to provide first aid to everyone in need of it.
The issue was discussed whether in this regard, we have to help street junkies, homeless people, people who have evidently committed suicide.
And by law, we have to.
That made me think that we are legally obligated to help theists.

So I am legally obligated to help someone who despises me to my core, and who claims to have divine justification for doing so.

Suck it up..

No really..

You are only good by how well you treat those who hate you. In other words, you should not judge who or what someone is before or after you help them. You should help them regardless of what they believe in or what they do or who they are. Refusing to do so would just make you an arsehole, especially when it comes to something like first aid.

 

[Gustav]

I recently had to take a course and a test to obtain a certificate in first aid.
There, we were reminded that by EU laws, we, as citizens, are obligated to provide first aid to everyone in need of it.

really?
do you carry Personal protective equipment on your person at all times or are you expected to wade in to the rescue like some dumb fuck?

i personally make no demands from my fellow citizens if broken. a phone call would be nice but you do not have to.

 

[Rav]

The law is a little different in Australia. We are not legally required to render assistance unless we are the designated first aid officer with respect to the particular circumstance, or were somehow involved in the events that lead to the injury. However, regardless of circumstance, once we have begun to administer first aid, we are legally obliged to continue.

Anyway, there are very few scenarios that I can imagine (all of them quite extreme and unlikely) where I would refuse to render some sort of assistance to someone who needed it, and merely believing them to be a judgmental arsehole would not be one of them.

 

[wynn]

really?
do you carry Personal protective equipment on your person at all times or are you expected to wade in to the rescue like some dumb fuck?

No, but as a driver of a motor vehicle or an employee in many public and private establishments, one is obligated to provide first aid, and also has the means at hand.

Anyway, there are very few scenarios that I can imagine (all of them quite extreme and unlikely) where I would refuse to render some sort of assistance to someone who needed it, and merely believing them to be a judgmental arsehole would not be one of them.

I would not refuse to help; in fact, I've already helped theists. I just feel awkward about helping someone whom I know to consider themselves a theist.

I can understand, forgive and let go of pretty much anything - except when people despise others in the name of God.

 

[Balerion]

So I am legally obligated to help someone who despises me to my core, and who claims to have divine justification for doing so.

I would think you're morally obligated, as well. But I do understand how this can be difficult to reconcile. Someone who would happily call your eternal damnation justice is bleeding out, and you're the only one who can save them...

I doubt you'd hesitate in the moment, but if it gives you pause during your downtime, just remember that you are not compelled to hate, and that this dilemma is of their own creation, not yours, and therefore not something you have to be overly concerned with. You are not bound by their doctrines of hatred.

If theists believe that they are so much better than ordinary people, then why don't the theists exclude themselves from secular society altogether?

Some do, at least to the extent that it's practically possible. But others believe that it's not their job to get out of our way. The monotheistic religions mirror empires or kingdoms for precisely this reason; doing so grants them divine right to the world.

 

[Sarkus]

There, we were reminded that by EU laws, we, as citizens, are obligated to provide first aid to everyone in need of it.

As far as I'm aware there's no such "Good Samaritan Act" in English Law.
I understand that there is in France and Germany, and maybe other European countries, but English Law does not obligate one to come to the aid of another person with whom there is no pre-existing relationship that obligates such aid.

Further, I do not think that the Law in such countries where it exists actually obligates one to provide aid to everyone in need of it (e.g. the homeless and/or junkies) but only in cases of disaster, imminent danger or distress - such as an accident, or where a crime is being committed.

This is at least what I understood when being advised to carry a first-aid kit in my car should I ever drive in continental Europe.

 

[spidergoat]

Don't worry, atheists despise you too. But it's good public relations to help theists.

 

[NMSquirrel]

So I am legally obligated to help someone who despises me to my core, and who claims to have divine justification for doing so.

assumption..
this assumes that ALL theist hate ALL atheist..
i am a theist and i do not hate all atheist..(actually there are more theist than atheist, that i don't like)
(there is a member of my church that posts on facebook alot that i have a hard time not bitching at her, for her complete disconnect from reality..)

AND more importantly, why would you NOT help anyone who needs your help?
especially if you are in the medical profession?

its like you are saying you want certain ppl to die or come to harm..why is this an issue??

If theists believe that they are so much better than ordinary people, then why don't the theists exclude themselves from secular society altogether?

amish,menonites, and various other groups have disconnected themselves from modern society,not because they view themselves as better, but to not get distracted by 'worldly' attitudes.

atheist tend to claim that (theist are better than atheist) before theist do..or rather...that is a condition of human nature not limited to just theists..
everyone acts like that irregardless of whether they are atheist or theist

 

[wynn]

As far as I'm aware there's no such "Good Samaritan Act" in English Law.
I understand that there is in France and Germany, and maybe other European countries, but English Law does not obligate one to come to the aid of another person with whom there is no pre-existing relationship that obligates such aid.

Further, I do not think that the Law in such countries where it exists actually obligates one to provide aid to everyone in need of it (e.g. the homeless and/or junkies) but only in cases of disaster, imminent danger or distress - such as an accident, or where a crime is being committed.

This is at least what I understood when being advised to carry a first-aid kit in my car should I ever drive in continental Europe.

Re bolded part - yes, this is when the clause on first aid applies.

 

[wynn]

AND more importantly, why would you NOT help anyone who needs your help?
especially if you are in the medical profession?

its like you are saying you want certain ppl to die or come to harm..why is this an issue??

Like I said -
I would not refuse to help; in fact, I've already helped theists. I just feel awkward about helping someone whom I know to consider themselves a theist.

I can understand, forgive and let go of pretty much anything - except when people despise others in the name of God.

atheist tend to claim that (theist are better than atheist) before theist do..or rather...that is a condition of human nature not limited to just theists..
everyone acts like that irregardless of whether they are atheist or theist

But only theists do it in the name of God.

I just don't understand how someone can make a point of claiming they believe in God, but nevertheless also despise other people.
I don't understand how this is even possible.

 

[NMSquirrel]

I just don't understand how someone can make a point of claiming they believe in God, but nevertheless also despise other people.
I don't understand how this is even possible.

it shouldn't be an issue..but human nature tends to take over..
most of the ppl i have met in church are seeking a self worth, and with most religions to get that self worth all they have to do is follow a script, and they get praised by the pastor for following this script. the majority of pastors tend to ignore their motivations as that would impead the growth of their church..
(dunno if you can see the contempt in my voice..)

but again, its not a theist/atheist attribute, it is common in every single person i have ever met, irregardless of whether they believe or not..to cite the fact that they use God to play this card is an attempt to show bigotry and predjudice towards theist..you can cite anything for atheist for this attitude (job,spouse,income,position,looks,intelligence,community, etc..)

IE, i am better than you because i am smarter than you..(don't have to look far to validate this statement)

so there is no difference between a person claiming 'i am better than you,because i believe in God' and 'i am better than you because i make more money than you', both are just an excuse to feel better about oneself by comparing oneself to another and pointing out what is different and placing a higher value on that difference..

 

[wynn]

it shouldn't be an issue..but human nature tends to take over..
most of the ppl i have met in church are seeking a self worth, and with most religions to get that self worth all they have to do is follow a script, and they get praised by the pastor for following this script. the majority of pastors tend to ignore their motivations as that would impead the growth of their church..
(dunno if you can see the contempt in my voice..)

but again, its not a theist/atheist attribute, it is common in every single person i have ever met, irregardless of whether they believe or not..to cite the fact that they use God to play this card is an attempt to show bigotry and predjudice towards theist..you can cite anything for atheist for this attitude (job,spouse,income,position,looks,intelligence,community, etc..)

IE, i am better than you because i am smarter than you..(don't have to look far to validate this statement)

so there is no difference between a person claiming 'i am better than you,because i believe in God' and 'i am better than you because i make more money than you', both are just an excuse to feel better about oneself by comparing oneself to another and pointing out what is different and placing a higher value on that difference..

I think you are trivializing the matter.

Belief in God is not like all the other things; it is unique.

Given that the main source of input on the topic of "God" are other people, and that God is, per definition, the most important being in the Universe, we can't just let people get away with doing shit in the name of God.

 

[NMSquirrel]

Given that the main source of input on the topic of "God" are other people, and that God is, per definition, the most important being in the Universe, we can't just let people get away with doing shit in the name of God.

this is about accountability...theist in general do not accept atheist trying to hold them accountable..
at this point the definition of atheist splits between atheist and anti-theist, since this definition tends to have a fine line..the anti-theist have no interest in holding the theist accountable but is more concerned with showing the theist the 'error of their ways' and trying to convert the theist to atheism,which is why in general the theist does not accept accountability from atheist.

But,you are right, theist have to be carefull what they do 'in the name of God' and they do have to be held accountable, not for a second do i believe God would tell someone to kill in his name..this goes against everything i have learned about God, (through scripture and experience)

if someone did use God as an excuse to kill someone (or do some other illegal thing) they still have to be held accountable according to the law.

<Edit>
IMO atheist tend to deify theist more than they should..IOW atheist tend to hold theist to a higher standard than theist hold each other to,i think this is due to only a cursory understanding of what a theist is supposed to be, you do not have to be perfect to be a theist,(all have sinned) and atheist tend to view theist as having to be perfect..well actually there are theist who think they have to be perfect also..(these are the ones that give religion a bad rep) but both do not understand the statement of 'we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God'..which means we are not perfect,we make mistakes, we do not always follow all the rules,in fact it means we are incapable of following all the rules..that is why God sent Jesus, to show us that even though we are not perfect he still loves and forgives us..

 

[Jan Ardena]

I recently had to take a course and a test to obtain a certificate in first aid.
There, we were reminded that by EU laws, we, as citizens, are obligated to provide first aid to everyone in need of it.
The issue was discussed whether in this regard, we have to help street junkies, homeless people, people who have evidently committed suicide.
And by law, we have to.
That made me think that we are legally obligated to help theists.

So I am legally obligated to help someone who despises me to my core, and who claims to have divine justification for doing so.


If theists believe that they are so much better than ordinary people, then why don't the theists exclude themselves from secular society altogether?

Do you really believe that all theists ''despise you to your core''?

I find that really hard to believe.

jan.

 

[wynn]

Do you really believe that all theists ''despise you to your core''?

I find that really hard to believe.

I experience theists to be categorically different than non-theists.
The terms of engagement between the two categories are usually mutually non-friendly, to put it mildly.

 

[Jan Ardena]

I experience theists to be categorically different than non-theists.
The terms of engagement between the two categories are usually mutually non-friendly, to put it mildly.

Interesting.

How many theists have you experienced?

jan.

 

[wynn]

Interesting.

How many theists have you experienced?

If you are trying to argue from "theists come in variation of interest and attainment" that will not work.

I don't feel inspired by any theistic leader, nor by any theistic doctrine that I have known of - and I am familiar with several.

 

[wynn]

IMO atheist tend to deify theist more than they should..IOW atheist tend to hold theist to a higher standard than theist hold each other to,i think this is due to only a cursory understanding of what a theist is supposed to be, you do not have to be perfect to be a theist,(all have sinned) and atheist tend to view theist as having to be perfect..

I do not think that atheists deify theists wrongly, as you said.

Theists are the ones coming forward with the direct or implicit claim that they are so capable, so advanced, that they can, on their own, discern the Absolute Truth.

Theists are the ones coming forward with the direct or implicit claim that they are so capable, so advanced, that they can, on their own, know God.

No, theists deify themselves already. Non-theists just point this out.

well actually there are theist who think they have to be perfect also..(these are the ones that give religion a bad rep) but both do not understand the statement of 'we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God'..which means we are not perfect,we make mistakes, we do not always follow all the rules,in fact it means we are incapable of following all the rules..that is why God sent Jesus, to show us that even though we are not perfect he still loves and forgives us..

Spin this whatever way you like: the moment you directly or indirectly declare to know God, is the moment you will be considered to have absolute abilities and that thus it is just to expect nothing less than perfection from you.

If you have a problem with that - I guess you can complain to God.