opioid~Addiction opioid~Death Pleasure/Pain & Dopamine

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by RainbowSingularity, Sep 7, 2019.

  1. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Thanks Seattle for Reminding me of something i was musing a few months back

    what part does opioid addiction play in dopamine interaction as a process to serving the Ego with physical pain ?

    is it possible to potentially explore some possible options of electrical shock therapy(synthesized pain feedback /non-injury) during long term pain management to try and disrupt & re-set the brain & body pain response to disconnect the biological chemical addiction process of addictive pain medications(non psychiatric)

    thoughts ?
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  3. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    I'm not a medical researcher or a doctor so my thoughts probably aren't all that valid here. I'm also not clear what your views are that usually bring up "Ego". I also don't know that the majority of the opioid problem is about pain management. Certainly some of it is. Some of it is just drug abuse.

    I do think that many people can manage their pain without resorting to opioids and that many become addicted after doctors prescribe them for pain.

    I think some of it is just people taking opioids when they really aren't needed. Many people with back pain, for example, "freak out" when they first experience that kind of pain and instead of just reducing inflamation initially and then learning better stretching/coping techniques they just rely on the meds.

    I have back issues and I don't take any meds. I have used anti-inflammatory meds for short periods of time and found that continuing to exercise does more than taking meds and giving in to the pain.

    That's not to say that my condition is unusual and that if I can do it anyone can do it but I have run into a lot of people whose condition is no worse than mine and they don't do any exercise, do take opioids and they are no better off.

    It's the unknown that freaks many people out. I've had a couple of kidney stones. Depending on the size, there is intense pain involved. If the stone is smaller though and it's not your first one, you better know how to deal with it until it passes.

    If it's your first one, you are likely to get surgery. If it's not your first and you know what is going on and how to deal with it, it's much less likely that you will get surgery. Part of that is you know know what to do to keep the pain down. Part of it is knowing that you can keep the pain down and that it will pass. When you aren't freaking out, you cope much better.
    Quantum Quack likes this.
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  5. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    excellent points

    note, i do not wish anyone to feel obliged to declare personal medical history to feel justified in their opinion.
    what i do wonder is the amount of people whom have been addicted to various substances and been able to kick the addiction and carry on with occasionally taking the drug.

    im not entirely sold on the abstinence concept around alcohol & opioids though i do get the idea around the stronger meds like oxy & heroin.

    on an anthro-sociological non personal level i have wondered what influence the abstinence culture in the USA has on creating addicts through polarizing concepts of substances that validate escapism in an otherwise cold harsh boring world view.
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2019
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  7. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    what is in a name ... a change .. a new experience .. a need for something to be changed Verses the need for escapism

    a change is as good as a holiday sometimes
    but mostly when it is a change that is needed
    confusing the need for change with going on an escape is fraught with difficulty
    sometimes that difficulty is confused with the struggle for change
    when that struggle for change is confused with the difficulty created by the escape, addictions and destructive behaviour patterns can easily and quickly develop

    addictions to behaviours that are reinforced by culture and consumerism drives a need for taking off others by removing the concept of variable outcomes
    this concept of variable outcomes is adversarial to the desired monetary or emotional taking of things.

    many people to most confuse emotional giving to receive as a contractual bargaining process
    emotional associations can not be negotiated for a process where one person gives up their ability & possibility to gain a varied outcome to deliver change and creativity.
  8. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

    Zero. That has to do with the neurobiology of addiction. Addicts grow an excess of endorphin receptors the better to signal dopamine production to shut down. They never go away, they can only go into dormancy, when natural dopamine production gradually resumes. When an addict uses again, they don't switch on again gradually but all at once, and quickly, shutting down your dopamine and making you feel like hell. This unbearable feeling makes people relapse. So there can be no such thing as moderation for an addict. There is no known method of removing endorphin receptors, the difficulty of this having something to do with the blood brain barrier.

    Electroshock therapy is more for severe mental illness, since it can do nothing about the receptor issue.
  9. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    i should have clarified
    i did not mean the modern concept of ECT
    i meant low voltage nerve stimulation in an attempt to reset the pain threshold level to acclimatize to a sense of semi normal pain
    like an attempted balancing of allergic reaction
    i have read a tiny amount on ECT and it seems to have a very heavy tone because of the server state of suffering of the patient where they become considered for such a severe process.
    Reading about the persons suffering i find to be a little bit too heavy for me on an ongoing basis. Combined with the unknown methods in which it may help, it appears to have been(is) a last ditch attempt.

    that has been crossing my mind lately(lol no pun intended)

    back to what i failed to outline clearly, is my general guess and pure assumption that a large proportion of users whom die from over dosing, may not be what most consider hard core(the dopamine criticality) addicts.
    i have just finished a 14 hour day(luckily not too busy) on only about 2 hours sleep so i will leave it there for now before i confuse the subject more.
  10. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

    Unfortunately, pain isn't one of those senses, like smell, that reduce depending on stimulation duration.
  11. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    probably a different thread subject of advanced human body self control
    free divers
    hard core endurance athletes
    etc etc...

    while i am not suggesting such people are immune to addiction to substances, i am directing the nature of the primary issue toward the average suburbanite.

    most people do not want to be just average
    but most people become the average of people
  12. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

    One could try exercise. Yes, it causes some pain initially, but it is a natural and healthy source of happy brain chemicals, a runner's high.
  13. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    It also prevents many issues from getting much worse. If you take someone without pain or addiction problems and have them stop all exercise, eventually they will have problems as well.

    Long term pain meds, in many cases, are more about fear of pain or discomfort than actual pain. They become addicted before they know if their fears were grounded.
  14. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    I think there's a lot of potential with vagus nerve stimulation. Presently, it is used mostly for refractory depression and epilepsy*, and there is little research on it's use in pain management. As re: opiates and opioids: in spite of their several thousand year history in medicine, very little research has focussed upon the quite varied responses between those treated with opiates vs. those treated with primarily thebaine derived opioids.

    Thebaine is especially problematic in epilepsy. While it's not exactly pro-convulsant, it's been shown to be pro-spasmodic. Obviously, the implications for that go well beyond seizure disorders. The tendency is seemingly diminished in thebaine derived synthetics, but not entirely.

    * Haven't tried it (VGS). I'm "refractory" or "treatment resistant" with respect to drugs, unknown with respect to other sorts of treatment. That said, it's also not strictly accurate. I do, in fact, respond somewhat favorably to two classes of drugs: benzodiazepines and opiates. The former are unsuitable for daily use. The dosage required for anticonvulsant effect is quite debilitating in other respects and most substance addictions pale next to benzo addictions. As with alcohol withdrawel, benzo withdrawel--where very high dosages are used--can result in death.

    As to the latter, opiates--NOT opioids--can have a powerful anticonvulsant effect with electrically induced seizures, not so much with chemically induced seizures. To complicate matters, efficacy is very much dosage dependent--with lower doses being considerably more effective than higher doses. And the synergistic effect is significant, IOW morphine in tandem with the 30-odd other alkaloids present in opium (typically, as goes active components, ~90 percent morphine, single digit or even decimal percentage codeine, thebaine, papaverine, etc. (hybrid strains gronw for thebaine/big pharma excepted)) is effective at a much lower dosage than morphine isolated.

    With these lower doses, addiction is far less likely--though dependence, sans escalating dosages, is common. Here, the real problem is stigma and a for-profit medical system.

    Of course, I'm talking about treatment of epilepsy. There are comparable studies with pain management, however.
  15. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    (thought...un-informed generalisation...)
    i wonder if the action to the nerve is intrinsic to the spasm being a frequency modulation/disruptor (i would need to hit the jack-pot on the internet to find any real data to investigate that concept)

    my expectation is eventually nerve neutralisers will be possible like a precision harmonic laser/field generator
    simply moving an adjustable lamp to the area which turns off the nerves in that region at specific frequencies allowing various primary nerve critical functions to carry on while sensory nerves are switched off.

    possibly simply by placing a transmitter to the body like a wrist watch it will turn off the pain receptors in a related radius.

    the potential critical damage to eyes organs and brains and primary nerve clusters might be an issue, no different in risk to hospital surgery should imagine under controlled management.

    i have dabbled with benzo addiction
    it seems to be a race to the bottom for the neurological system and consequentially the psychological condition.
    my suspicion is the mix of placebo induced primary nerve effect is culminate to allow a wider access to psychological addictive process via habituation and acclimatization & desensitization.
    3 hard core drivers

    i doubt you will find any benzo addiction that is not driven primarily by a psychological addiction.
    what seems to be used as an excuse is the physiological condition to conceal the psychological addiction that has developed along side the behavioural while introduction of the drug to the neurological system.

    part of the primary problem with USA research is the user pays health care system that drives a need for constant victim status to validate the access to care.
    user pays privatized health drives the need for addiction to maintain the victim status of the patient.
    this is a huge problem that wont be solved any time soon assuming any political group large enough decides to look at possible regulatory actions to help re-align the patient access.

    (i am currently being distracted by several things so unable to put my mind to task properly, so i apologize for sounding somewhat superficial.)

    agreed 100%
    culture surrounding the Ego and sexual self projection of self worth
    Drugs are mostly attached to poverty driven female prostitution as a cultural narrative
    the associated enslavement of females and sexism of misogynistic culture models is complicitly attached as un-avoidable cause and effect by many different social groups.
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
  16. Gawdzilla Sama Valued Senior Member

    I went into full respiratory arrest due to an accidental overdose of oxycontin. This was in 2007. Drove myself to the ER, five blocks away. I was awake when they trach'd me. Much fun.
  17. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Naloxone roll out seems to be a logical choice.

    Victim shaming Victim blaming Vs terrorism Vs alt-right liberal conservative ideology of elitism(pro-hunger games political activists)

    because it is listed as medical, it must be owned by a private company making a profit
    how do they profit off 130 preventable deaths per day ?
    that is difficult for them to hide the profit behind fake morals and political ideology

    why are citizens not protesting up and down the country blockading traffic and commerce demanding anti terrorism/ Naloxone
    to be rolled out as mandatory protection ?

    because the bully normalisation culture sees drug over dose along with suicide as a personal choice part of the jungle law survival of the animals ideological paradigm

    too weak to fight back against the bullys ? tough luck they say

    that is culture
    similar to equal rights and human rights
    right of women to vote
    right to same sex relationships
    right to belong to a church
    right to be protected from .... ? outside influence ?

    i dont care how much money the Naloxone company makes
    they will be on the front lines saving 100 american citizens per day
    thats good economics no matter what type of empathy lacking psychopath you are.
  18. Gawdzilla Sama Valued Senior Member

    That was in 2007.
  19. Truck Captain Stumpy The Right Honourable Reverend Truck Captain Valued Senior Member

    from the article "All About Electrotherapy and Pain Relief" by John Revord, MD
    Electrotherapy can take many forms, but the most common type is transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation, or TENS.

    this can be taught by pain management depending on the patient, but not all patients are capable of exercise
  20. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    Back in the 90's, I found a curious medical device in some hospital's waste. It was roughly Walkman size and shape, with a couple of wired electrodes to attach to the body. It was in it's case, with some cursory instructions--but these were the early days of the interwebs, so detailed info was scant. Anyways, it was some sort of ultrasound device for management of nerve pain, and the instructs specifically warned against placing the nodes anywhere on or above the neck, so... of course, that's how I used it. (Shoot me--I also swear by my orgone accumulator.)

    Of course, nowadays laser tech has gotten really cheap--my vet uses one for therapy with Daisy's (dog) arthritis. It cost her ~20 grand, but I told her I could produce a superior model for less than a couple grand.

    Anyways, I don't even know why I am revealing all of this, but you probably see where it's going. Part of the problem for making significant advances in these areas is that you really need volunteers, and even with willing volunteers there are other legal obstacles. The concept of "kindling" is fast gaining wide acceptance in the medical community--what was once believed to have no possible long term consequences, or adverse effects, is no longer the case.

    Still, I'd volunteer. I've got nothing to lose. But I can't.

    I'm not so sure, to be honest. Even with opiates/opioids, for instance, the fact is that most people simply do not like them. They only take them because they have to--or are instructed to. The distinctions between habituation to dependency to addiction are not always so clear.

    I don't know. To the best of my knowledge, epileptic blackouts are strikingly similar to benzo/rufie blackouts--they ain't fun. Typically, I "lose" seconds or minutes, but often enough, I've lost hours to days--I've even lost more than a week a couple of times (at least). But then, plenty of alcoholics regularly blackout, yet they continue.

    Repetition compulsion. There's a scene in Thomas Vinterberg's Festen (Celebration) that I've never gotten to see. Every time it comes up, I have a violent seizure and lose consciousness. Funnily, same with Harmony Korine Julien Donkeyboy. But I won't stop trying.

    Both Beto O'Rourke and Andrew Wang advocated for decriminilization for opiates. With regulation, overdoses would vanish--no fentanyl or, worse yet, carfentanyl mixed in with your smack. Likewise, the myth of the "out of control" addicts would vanish overnight. Undoubtedly, some of those would remain, but they would comprise a very small minority.

    I'm beyond distracted at the moment. I'll likely look at this tomorrow and have no idea what I was on about.
    RainbowSingularity likes this.
  21. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    With neuro-maladies, this is by no means a bad thing. Something might prove beneficial to perhaps only 5 or 10 percent of subjects--but that's still 5 or 10 percent! When dealing with the refractory or treatment resistant, one takes what one can get.
  22. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    replying to this while i can hold my train of thought...
    my impresion is the habitual psychological addiction comes in after the use of the benzo has started and is masked by the various conditions, pain depression anxiety/ptsd/panic attacks etc etc...
    my guess and suspicion is there is some type of semi magical mix with the emotional conditioning where it alters the balancing concept for the sensory normalisation.
    this gets hijacked by the emotional control system as it asserts its self against the Super Egos concept of the nerve system awareness to the bidy.

    because a habit of curing the condition and reducing pain has been loaded into the hand-to-mouth process of feeding a want it is carried like a parasite inside behaviours.

    i have spent some years casualy pondering how to unravel this parasitic sensory perception behaviorism out of the patients processes of self actualisation.
    note (while staying well clear of)keeping in mind the last thing you want to do is trigger anorexia or bulimia as the behavioral self medication then normalise it.

    unravelling this magic soup mix is something that a few years ago, was attempted by a drug
    the drug that blocked a receptor process to inhibit the sensory gratification process.
    maybe just a single type of screw driver in what is required as a very comprehensive tool box.

    Last edited: Oct 19, 2019
  23. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    the ego and self esteem can not cope with remembering everything
    the emotional processing of it all is far too much
    like trying to squeeze 5k digital through a dial up connection

    as im sure you are aware, the brain simply wipes stuff out to protect its self.
    burring &/or wiping is a critical survival technique of the species.

    leaving all that stuff where it is...

    what i have been curious about of a few years is the interactive electro-chemical processing relationship between the brains electrical conductivity, and myelin sheath

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    how this electro chemical process allows nerve/neural connectivity and re-pair.
    (how do metal dietary supplements and nutrition help/hinder etc)
    i gues the electrical epilepsy prevents the wiring connections to either retrieve or store or both the data from and to the memory.
    as with storing data on a hard drive, simply recovering the data may be pointless as it may be scrambled into pieces that simply render it to be useless.
    loosing time & reference frames on human experiential memory renders it to be simply code
    and code with a few bits missing or in the wrong place becomes completely useless when the language is being written by the nature of the process to store & retrieve it.

    guessing, there may be a jump-starter interupt controller neural driver unit that may help
    like the brain re-innitiators or pace makers.

    im guessing those have been tried already ?
    i dont read on such things.

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