Orgone Energy

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yes... I realize it. Somewhere I read about an "Orgonne" "Living Water Generator".

It was an electropolishing rig, without the caustic chemicals.

Whaaaa?

The guy was basically putting a metal hydroxide into solution and then calling it "excess" energy when run backwards as a battery. It was really just a rather bad backwards battery.

However, if anyone wishes to have a (read carefully) Conversation about Chi or "life force", telekinesis, remote viewing, or the likely mechanisms behind such phenomenae, please feel free to contact me.

Do not start a fight. I'm in no mood to put up with childish pedantics such as what I saw on the ramjet topic. If you do start a fight, however, I'll be more than happy to finish it.

But, i'd be much happier having a rather open-ended discussion on these topics - just be careful what presumptions you bring to the table, and how tightly you hold to your beliefs of how a system works. I.e:

A man is brought to a surgeon in 10th century greece. He has a large swelling on his foot, with an obvious snakebite. The Surgeon explains that his humors have been knocked out of balance by the snake's bite, and he must remove some phlegmatic and sanguine humors to restore balance.

He lances the swollen region with a razor, allowing blood and a clear fluid to flow out.

The patient is back up on his feet two days later, feeling just fine.

It really was the humors out of balance!

*fast forward ten centuries*

Joe gets a snakebite.
Joe goes to the E.R.
E.R. Physician Dr. Mitchell tells a nurse to get the snakebite kit.
Dr. Mitchell puts on a turniquet, lances the bite, and extracts the venom, and a minimal amount of blood, and prescribes some benadryl and an anti-inflammatory.
Joe feels better.
Joe gets a bill for $1500
Ah, it really was the venom making Joe's leg swell up and go numb.

Was it the humors, or the venom?

Doesn't matter so much as long as you don't make assumptions based on assumptions.

i.e., don't assume that another swelling is a result of humors out of balance just because that assumption worked for a snakebite. Maybe it's humors, maybe it's venom, or maybe you've got cancer.
 
hey, just to clear up the ozone thing (no pun intended):

Free electrons in and of themselves do NOT create ozone.

However, having worked in a pulsed power lab, and building a Blumlein pulse forming network (actually a few of them) and a marx bank, I know that you don't need a DC, or even an AC circuit to generate ions, free electrons, or Ozone.

The gist is, you raise the potential of a conductor significantly above that of the ambient environment such that current flows from this conductor to ground. You don't need a corresponding opposite polarity conductor present to complete a "circuit" any more than you need an opposite polarity dome on a wimshurst or Van DeGraff generator. It's just a charged sphere. You CAN provide a ground terminal to get all kinds of crazy streamer discharges and breakdown effects, but the point is the air itself picks up electrons and becomes ionized.

If the potential is strong enough, say 100V/cm or so, these electrons kind of just stream off the conductor and are accelerated by the local electric field. They knock electrons off atoms in the air, and continue along their path until the dissipate enough kinetic energy to become captured by another atom/molecule and generate a negative ion.

This is how Ozone is generated. It's not a magical "free electron + oxygen = ozone" recipie. Just a ballistic effect of knocking electrons off of other ions.

The neat thing about this is that if the potential is strong enough, then the electrons that are knocked free can gain enough kinetic energy from the local electric field to knock other electrons off other atoms, and something called "Avalanche" is reached. Some neat new transistors work on this effect, which otherwise would fry a standard silicon npn or pnp junction or even FET and MOSFET switches. These guys are for switching really high currents really f***ing fast.

Anyhow, I digress. Ozone is produced all over the place, even when you dry your clothes - static electricity is more than strong enough to produce some Ozone.

If anyone's interested I can post some selections from my pulsed power class notes (it was really a bioelectrics class, but plasmas were covered in some detail). Lots of capacitor equations and all, but there's a whole page or two just on Ion chemistry - what ion species are formed under what conditions, and how they form from other species.

Really neat stuff if anyone's interested.
 
Orionblade, that's a good post (182), but you didn't connect it to the topic of this thread. It needs and deserves its own topic line.
 
MetaKron said:
Orionblade, that's a good post (182), but you didn't connect it to the topic of this thread. It needs and deserves its own topic line.
Click to expand...

well, actually, check page 9, someone said that Ozone isn't created by free electrons, and someone else pissed in the wind about working in a high voltage laboratory.

So, I was just clearing things up. I hate these pissing matches, and that's really my point. I'm only going to state something as fact insofar as I have observed it and have congruent substantiating evidence to that end. It seems like other people have posted "facts" which are really opinion-based evaluations of a pheonomenon. That's when people's feelings get hurt - oh, no, you didn't agree with my opinion. When talking about a scientific topic, yank your emotions out of it or else we end up with the aforementioned ramjet topic.

I'll be happy, however, to post the further information in another topic thread, since, yes, that is completely not "Orgonne" related.

Again, feel free to contact me directly (Rion.Motley@gmail.com) if you'd like to discuss something in private or request more information.

I'm going out now to buy some ice and to rig up my fuel-air explosives that i'm going to set off this evening. It's funny. Fireworks here are illegal, but there's no law against putting a spark plug in a 2 liter plastic bottle full of fuel vapor.

Kaboom!

erm... Cheers!
Rion
 
Now to go back to the topic:

Using classical scientific methods, Wilhelm Reich discovered a real phenomenon that caused effects that could readily be observed, photographed, and replicated.

This is a good site to learn the basics and to go on to learn anything that you want to know about this:

http://www.orgone.org/
 
MetaKron said:
Now to go back to the topic:

Using classical scientific methods, Wilhelm Reich discovered a real phenomenon that caused effects that could readily be observed, photographed, and replicated.

This is a good site to learn the basics and to go on to learn anything that you want to know about this:

http://www.orgone.org/
Click to expand...
Ok, I looked over the site at the subject headings and FAQ, and there is no info spelling out what orgone energy is (in the lingo of mainstream physics), nor any evidence presented of its existence or measurability.

So...is there?

Or is it all just like those fuzzy photographs of ufos...that could be a pie plate?
 
Orionblade said:
well, actually, check page 9, someone said that Ozone isn't created by free electrons, and someone else pissed in the wind about working in a high voltage laboratory.

So, I was just clearing things up. I hate these pissing matches, and that's really my point. I'm only going to state something as fact insofar as I have observed it and have congruent substantiating evidence to that end. It seems like other people have posted "facts" which are really opinion-based evaluations of a pheonomenon. That's when people's feelings get hurt - oh, no, you didn't agree with my opinion. When talking about a scientific topic, yank your emotions out of it or else we end up with the aforementioned ramjet topic.

I'll be happy, however, to post the further information in another topic thread, since, yes, that is completely not "Orgonne" related.

Again, feel free to contact me directly (Rion.Motley@gmail.com) if you'd like to discuss something in private or request more information.

I'm going out now to buy some ice and to rig up my fuel-air explosives that i'm going to set off this evening. It's funny. Fireworks here are illegal, but there's no law against putting a spark plug in a 2 liter plastic bottle full of fuel vapor.

Kaboom!

erm... Cheers!
Rion
Click to expand...

The message that you replied to is about six months old. You needed to quote or link to the message. That's how you connect your message to the topic when it doesn't appear to connect at first glance.

In my own way I have investigated orgone well enough to be convinced that there is something there. I have read books like the Cancer Biopathy and that one about the bion experiments, and I have tried some experiments.

One problem that we are going to have is that orgone particles are related to electromagnetism so closely that it's hard to differentiate the phenomena, especially considering that orgone particles have always been there and have always been part of what we see.

Some of the denials that I have seen have been so completely wacked out that I can't tell how anyone even conceived them, and they are good reason for suspicion, not only of the intent of the deniers, but of their sanity. That kind of smoke tells you that someone got burned.
 
Carcano said:
Ok, I looked over the site at the subject headings and FAQ, and there is no info spelling out what orgone energy is (in the lingo of mainstream physics), nor any evidence presented of its existence or measurability.

So...is there?

Or is it all just like those fuzzy photographs of ufos...that could be a pie plate?
Click to expand...

You might have to read a little more to find it.
 
Carcano said:
Pardon me, but...:)

1. What is orgone energy...in the lingo of mainstream physics?

2. Is there any reproduceable evidence that it exists and can be measured?
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1. It is the third force of electromagnetism that was mathematically predicted by Maxwell.

2. Yes.
 
MetaKron said:
1. It is the third force of electromagnetism that was mathematically predicted by Maxwell.

2. Yes.
Click to expand...
Thank you.:)

1. What was Maxwell's name for this third force?

2. If this force was mathematically predicted, but not proven, how can we say it is measureable?
 
scalar, vector, tensor

If I'm not mistaken, the "third force" is really the field tensor. The symbol for this is an upside down delta shape, whose name escapes me. If, again, I'm not mistaken, then this would be the capital letter Gamma of the greek alphabet.

again, I digress...

A tensor is simply a higher-order vector. Scalar quantities are like temperature. Just a value. Magnitude, no direction. Vectors are scalars with a direction, like the velocity of an object. you have to specify a speed (miles per hour?) and a direction (relative to a datum... say degrees of heading) that would be a two dimensional vector, specifying a direction in two dimensions, and a magnitude (speed).

Third order vectors are just magnitude, x/y direction, and x/z or y/z direction, i.e. what angle is subtended by a ray, extending from the equivalent point mass along its current trajectory, relative to the reference axis.

much of this is arbitrary and rather obvious if one just kind of thinks about it for a second and pokes around in those areas of the brain not used since sophomore geometry.

A tensor, finally, is any vector with more terms than M, i, and j (magnitude, x/y, x/z directions)

Sooo, if you want to toss a bunch of values describing a particle together into a tensor, then it's just like a big matrix. So really the third force should simply be a tensor describing the path of a particle through either a higher dimensional space, OR, a non-obvious scalar attribute such as spin, color, flavor and texture, temperature, or personality. (electrons, strings, ben and jerry, photons, or quarks, repsectively)

The only problem with this is something I mentioned in my previous thread referencing humors vs. venom... making assumptions based on previous assumptions as opposed to actual fact. If you use the notation to make assumptions about the governing dynamic, then you may or may not come up with something new that still paralells the aforementioned dynamic. There may or may not have been an actual third force, it is perhaps an artifact of the mathematical construct (the tensor itself) which was used to describe the rest of the theory.

There's lots of funky things that matrices can do or be made to do that have no correlation whatsoever with the real-world things they represent. IN other words... once a Thing becomes a Number, weird things can happen, especially when trying to turn a Number into a Thing.

So be careful when you ask for a paralell between Orgonne and Maxwell, Einstein, or Planck.

It's probbably not going to happen, since Orgonne/Orgone is an apparently separate phenomenon which has not been well explored by peer reviewed research. (i.e., there's no big money in it, and the field is overpopulated by wacky garage scientist-zealots that tend to scare the money away).

So, why don't we simply document a few things here that we need to address. Be a little more specific than "What is it?", but we'll start with that as the overarching theme.

What is Orgone?
What do we already know?
What would we like to do with it?
What does it seem to have a strong affect on?
What are likely sources for it?
How might we control it's magnitude, direction, or duration?
How might we construct an Orgonne ray gun to interest the military in our research so we might get a juicy contract?

Ask yourself the question, then ask yourself how we might set up an experiment to answer it, or to simply better define the question.

In all my years of researching various topics, the answers I have sought have presented themselves, quite simply, after asking the right question. Then the very question seemed to have answered itself.

Happy hunting, gentlemen.

Rion
 
Mr. Blade, you are one of the first people I have seen who actually throws some intelligence into a rebuttal.
 
Carcano said:
Thank you.:)

1. What was Maxwell's name for this third force?

2. If this force was mathematically predicted, but not proven, how can we say it is measureable?
Click to expand...

I don't know that he had any name for it. We can say that it is measurable because various experimenters have come up with ways to measure its presence. We can of course have some arguments about how measurable it is or how accurately.

Radio was a usable technology even before more than very crude measurements of radiated power and frequency could be made. The signal would still cross the Atlantic. Reich came up with enough technology that people can work with it.

Some of Orionblade's ideas seem to be usable to come up with some kind of idea of what the particles might be. They are actually visible to the unaided human eye. They float, they seem unaffected by gravity and somewhat affected by the air, and they seem to refract light in some strange way. Recent research is showing us that photons are very strange, actually able to be flexed and stretched. If the wavicle that makes up a photon were paired up with another one with the exact opposite vector, and somehow they got stuck together, you would get a neutral particle that goes nowhere. Orgone particles absorb energy from sunlight and are moved by magnetic fields.
 
Danke

MetaKron said:
Mr. Blade, you are one of the first people I have seen who actually throws some intelligence into a rebuttal.
Click to expand...


Why thank you. I don't like fighting. Winning or losing is all relative in scientific endeavours. If I'm wrong, then guess what? I've just learned something that I previously thought to be otherwise. If you (the general sense of "you") are wrong, then guess what? You just learned something.

The Really interesting things happen when we're both wrong, or right, in different ways.

Ooooooh, a mystery!

*pulls out large magnifying glass and pipe*

Now where did I leave inspector Poirot's phone number....
 
MetaKron said:
I don't know that he had any name for it. We can say that it is measurable because various experimenters have come up with ways to measure its presence.
Click to expand...
Maxwell never used any words to identify a new force in physics he predicted mathematically??? Is that correct?

Ok, did the "various experimenters" use any names to identify this force they were able to measure the presence of.

What instruments did they use to measure its presence?
 
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