Pascal's Wager still a Longshot unless.....

[PsychoticEpisode]

one can improve their odds. Pretty simple really. If you think that believing God exists means you can't lose then I say think again. That is only part of the handicapping. Which theistic religion will improve your wager even more? Well that's a tough one so to further enhance your wager would it not be prudent to practice all of them and worship every god that's out there?

Would God have a problem with this? Would you sincerity be in question? Faith and devotion? How would you deal with contradictions in ideology?

It seems the wager is only worthwhile if one only believes in God. However, as we have seen, God does not take too kindly to non worship. I for one would not want to worship the wrong god. So does just believing make it all right? Why you believe isn't important, is that it? Believing for the sake of covering your ass is ok?

 

[earth]

one can improve their odds. Pretty simple really. If you think that believing God exists means you can't lose then I say think again. That is only part of the handicapping. Which theistic religion will improve your wager even more? Well that's a tough one so to further enhance your wager would it not be prudent to practice all of them and worship every god that's out there?

Would God have a problem with this? Would you sincerity be in question? Faith and devotion? How would you deal with contradictions in ideology?

It seems the wager is only worthwhile if one only believes in God. However, as we have seen, God does not take too kindly to non worship. I for one would not want to worship the wrong god. So does just believing make it all right? Why you believe isn't important, is that it? Believing for the sake of covering your ass is ok?

Most believers know that God is a Jealous God and will have no other Gods before him. The question is which God is the correct God? Nobody can answer that question. One may as well flip a coin.

 

[Alien Cockroach]

My response to Pascal's Wager remains the same: atheism is the one, true religion. Only atheists have a single iota of a chance of acheiving an eternal, immortal afterlife. Christians will be punished for all time for their evil heresy.

The real problem with Pascal's Wager is that you can flip it completely on its head. Suppose there is a God, and only atheists get sent to Heaven? It makes sense. Christians are arguably worshipping a false idol, and so are theists in general. Because they don't worship a false idol, this would put atheists at an advantage.

As an atheist, if there were a single, perfect Supreme Being, meaning one that absolutely warrents being slavishly worshipped, I follow that guy. However, I would be a liar if I said that I felt there were any particular reason to believe in any such thing. I would be absolutely making shit up in the place of the real truth, whatever that may be. The origin and nature of the universe is a mystery, and cosmologists and astrophysicists have barely even scratched the surface of this mystery. I am justified in saying, "there is no such thing as God," because, as far as any and all evidence is concerned, there isn't. It's a fantasy.

If, by some completely random chance, this "theism" is even remotely accurate as a belief, it is inconsequential. They are still liars, and they were still making shit up in the place of the truth. They deserve to burn for it.

However, I distinguish once again between an arrogant theist and a so-called "true believer" who states to us clearly that his/her religion is a faith. If you have a faith and you think it somehow brings something special into your life, tell us so. But don't you even dare claim that this believe is something you have evidence for unless you are prepared to show it. Otherwise, you are a liar. And I've heard one theist after another say, "you have to believe in it first to get your evidence." I respond, "You believe in it, and you still don't have evidence. You are telling me an outrageous lie, and I ought to kill you for it." I don't take this subject lightly: faith is one thing, lying to others or yourself is quite another. One is okay, and the other you ought to burn for, capiche?

Pascal's Wager is only peddled by the lowest of the low. They're people who try to "play the odds" instead of having a bonafide sense of faith. I find it repulsive. Having been a Christian for a long time myself and having come from a very Christian family, I also find it offensive because it gives a really bad name to a few beliefs that used to be incredibly important in my life.

 

[Not my puppy]

It seems the wager is only worthwhile if one only believes in God. However, as we have seen, God does not take too kindly to non worship. I for one would not want to worship the wrong god. So does just believing make it all right? Why you believe isn't important, is that it? Believing for the sake of covering your ass is ok?

Most believers know that God is a Jealous God and will have no other Gods before him. The question is which God is the correct God? Nobody can answer that question. One may as well flip a coin.

My response to Pascal's Wager remains the same: atheism is the one, true religion. Only atheists have a single iota of a chance of acheiving an eternal, immortal afterlife. Christians will be punished for all time for their evil heresy.

These statements cover a wide scope on the subject of faith in or absence of belief in a God.

I submit that if there is a God, God is the universe and if there is any means of identity existing after death it won't depend of faith, it will depend on whether or not there is a mechanism as part of the universe that enables the entirety of our living being to be retained as a record of our acts, thoughts, movements, everything about our individual existences.

Such a mechanism would be possible if in the quantum reality all of those things are impressed into the fabric of the cosmos as they occur. I can imagine that possibility but there is no way for us to detect the nature of the information that would have to exist at every point in space for it to be true. It might be of a holographic nature where each act, each thought, each motion sends out waves on a plane beyond out identification or comprehension. If may be such that each wave broadly expands to infinity and each point in space that it encompasses has that record forever.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

capiche?

100%. If God exists then atheists are His favorite people, however that may be considered a wager in itself. In a circumstance when there is no evidence, it is illogical and unreasonable to suppose a condition exists.

 

[dixonmassey]

Well that's a tough one so to further enhance your wager would it not be prudent to practice all of them and worship every god that's out there?

Bad idea. God of the Bible is a Jealous God (Bible Says so, read 10 commandments at least). Worshiping wrong kind of God is a big crime in the eyes of Jehovah, much bigger than non belief (Bible mums about it). So by making wide variety of wagers you are dooming yourself 100%. Common sense suggests that the other 3,000+ of Gods and deities Humans invented are jealous to the same extent (at least). It appears that non belief is the safest bet.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Bad idea. God of the Bible is a Jealous God (Bible Says so, read 10 commandments at least). Worshiping wrong kind of God is a big crime in the eyes of Jehovah, much bigger than non belief (Bible mums about it). So by making wide variety of wagers you are dooming yourself 100%. Common sense suggests that the other 3,000+ of Gods and deities Humans invented are jealous to the same extent (at least). It appears that non belief is the safest bet.

Bet the same on every horse and you will pick a winner. If it's a longshot, you win.

Worshiping every God improves your odds of picking a winner. In fact it's guaranteed. You can't get the same if you 're betting on a specific religion's god.

 

[dixonmassey]

Bet the same on every horse and you will pick a winner. If it's a longshot, you win.

Worshiping every God improves your odds of picking a winner. In fact it's guaranteed. You can't get the same if you 're betting on a specific religion's god.

No, you don't get it, even if you'll pick a winner, worshiping every God automatically makes you a loser even if you are a nominal winner.

I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me.

Remember? I know that Allah is also very stringent on worshiping wrong kinds of deities. Actually, I would guess that every God would be pissed if he's worshiped to the same extent as the other Guys (Gods) humans come up with.

 

[Nasor]

Pascal's Wager is only peddled by the lowest of the low. They're people who try to "play the odds" instead of having a bonafide sense of faith. I find it repulsive. Having been a Christian for a long time myself and having come from a very Christian family, I also find it offensive because it gives a really bad name to a few beliefs that used to be incredibly important in my life.

Not really. It's mostly peddled by people who do have real faith, in attempts to convert more logically-minded people who do not. Only someone who already believed in the conclusion it's supposed to reach would think it was convincing.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

No, you don't get it, even if you'll pick a winner, worshiping every God automatically makes you a loser even if you are a nominal winner.

I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me.

Remember? I know that Allah is also very stringent on worshiping wrong kinds of deities. Actually, I would guess that every God would be pissed if he's worshiped to the same extent as the other Guys (Gods) humans come up with.

This is all about final judgment. Pascal is wagering on a favorable judgment without knowing whether a horse is in the race. He's just betting in case one is. One thing God would judge him on is which God did you support? Any god answer he gives is a lie? He would have supported none or might have taken a chance on one(way too risky).

I guess it all depends on what you judge will please God. For Pascal it is just belief in a god.

If you are worshiping all the gods then you are still believing in a god. You can always say yes to supporting God if asked on your judgment day. How is that not better?

I hear what you're saying...Worshiping is not as important as belief....don't get me wrong...I like it. That has been my stance since I signed up here. Believe whatever the hell you want but keep it to yourself. If worship is out then proselytising is also out. Evangelism is also out. All things religious are done as there is never ending uncertainty.

 

[Lori_7]

one can improve their odds. Pretty simple really. If you think that believing God exists means you can't lose then I say think again. That is only part of the handicapping. Which theistic religion will improve your wager even more? Well that's a tough one so to further enhance your wager would it not be prudent to practice all of them and worship every god that's out there?

Would God have a problem with this? Would you sincerity be in question? Faith and devotion? How would you deal with contradictions in ideology?

It seems the wager is only worthwhile if one only believes in God. However, as we have seen, God does not take too kindly to non worship. I for one would not want to worship the wrong god. So does just believing make it all right? Why you believe isn't important, is that it? Believing for the sake of covering your ass is ok?

No. And besides, is futile at best. If religion is your means and that is your motive, then you're not really covering your ass. God is not a religion. Do you really think that if such a thing as god exists, it couldn't handle the task of making itself known to you? Which is ironically the foundation of some religions that seem to want to take the place of such knowledge. But that's each of our own responsibity. So like us to want to put it into the hands of an institution.

Worship is how I live my life everyday. Its not a meaningless ritual or ceremony, or clapping my hands and singing a song. Its not hollow prayers, but real thoughts and desires that manifest all the time. Its not obeying rules that you don't understand, its about understanding. And its not about commands but willful acts.

 

[dixonmassey]

I guess it all depends on what you judge will please God. For Pascal it is just belief in a god.

God of the Bible? The guy is famous for killing/exterminating wicked ones. One of the signs of wickedness - worshiping idols (other Gods). God of the Bible does NOT, would not accept just believing in a generic God. You got to worship/believe in Bible' God or else. Homicidal maniac of Old Testament would smack you dead for worshiping anything but him. Sweet baby Jesus, on the other hand, would send your arse to hell forever for not accepting him as thy exclusive savior. I don't know what religion you base your waging on. But Bible God does NOT accept believing in a generic God. I doubt there is a single formal religion which allows such liberty of generic belief (Unitarians maybe and even then you GOT believe namely in Jesus as universal deity).

 

[Diogenes' Dog]

Here's an updated version I've come up with which may answer some of the previous posts about being sent to Hell by a jealous God, if you pick the wrong one etc. Any monotheistic Divinity will do - they all refer to the same Reality, but seen through the lens of different cultures and traditions.

Here goes: This is not a proof, but a pragmatic argument for believing in God, in the absence of any conclusive argument either way.

1. There is no conclusive rational proof of God’s existence or non-existence.
   
2. However, if God does exist, finding God becomes of supreme importance, and the way to the ultimately rewarding and meaningful life.
   
3. Research shows that believers in a benign God are generally happier, healthier and live longer than non-believers.
   (N.B. See the work of Tully, J., et al., 2006; O'Connor, P.J., et al. 2005; Krucoff, M. W., et al. 2005; D'Souza, R.F. & A. Rodrigo. 2004; Hughes M. et al., 2000; Koenig H.G., et al., 1997; Strawbridge, W.J., et al. 1997 and many more).
   
4. Therefore, in the absence of proof, it is worth making an initial ‘leap of faith’ and to act on the assumption that a benign God does exist (until the evidence proves otherwise).
   
5. If you are right and God exists, from (2) you will live a rewarding and meaningful life.
   
6. If you are wrong and God does not exist, from (3) you are still more likely to have led a happier, healthier and longer life, than if you had not believed.

Either way you win! Good old Blaise Pascal!!

 

[dixonmassey]

Here's an updated version I've come up with which may answer some of the previous posts about being sent to Hell by a jealous God, if you pick the wrong one etc. Any monotheistic Divinity will do - they all refer to the same Reality, but seen through the lens of different cultures and traditions.

Here goes: This is not a proof, but a pragmatic argument for believing in God, in the absence of any conclusive argument either way.

1. There is no conclusive rational proof of God’s existence or non-existence.
   
2. However, if God does exist, finding God becomes of supreme importance, and the way to the ultimately rewarding and meaningful life.
   
3. Research shows that believers in a benign God are generally happier, healthier and live longer than non-believers.
   (N.B. See the work of Tully, J., et al., 2006; O'Connor, P.J., et al. 2005; Krucoff, M. W., et al. 2005; D'Souza, R.F. & A. Rodrigo. 2004; Hughes M. et al., 2000; Koenig H.G., et al., 1997; Strawbridge, W.J., et al. 1997 and many more).
   
4. Therefore, in the absence of proof, it is worth making an initial ‘leap of faith’ and to act on the assumption that a benign God does exist (until the evidence proves otherwise).
   
5. If you are right and God exists, from (2) you will live a rewarding and meaningful life.
   
6. If you are wrong and God does not exist, from (3) you are still more likely to have led a happier, healthier and longer life, than if you had not believed.

Either way you win! Good old Blaise Pascal!!

How in the hell can you call believing in arbitrary delusion "meaningful"? What about believing in fire breezing dragons? What you mean by meaningful? If believing in God creates a "meaning" for you, you can create lots of meanings using other means than invisible friends (you are getting to know ???? ). It's you who are the ultimate creator of your meanings. For example, most folks (believers and non believers alongside) find tremendous meaning in status, money, food, fucking, power, etc. They spend WAY, WAY more energy pursuing those things than worshiping ANY deity under Sun. Sorry souls spending more energy on worship of their invisible friends are rather exceptions.

The only positive side of believing in an invisible friend - impossibility to reach the goal (meeting an invisible friend) while being alive. Yup, you'll drop dead and all the secrets of God and Universe will open for ya. A dead hairless monkey is so much more powerful and insightful than alive one

As for lifespan and enjoyment, I know for sure than brainwashing myself into man made delusion(s) will make me way more sorry and miserable than I'm now since finding God practically means accepting human imbecility (or voices in my head). There is no rush, I'll drop dead I'll see (not). There is nothing to fear about eternal self-sufficient nothingness I came from and I'll go back to.

You circular meanings are well described in "kissing Hank's ass". Excellent intro to human religions, read it. http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.php.

 

[dixonmassey]

Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us."

Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss His ass?"

John: "If you kiss Hank's ass, He'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, He'll kick the shit out of you."

Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"

John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever He wants, and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can't until you kiss His ass."

Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."

Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?"

Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."

John: "Then come kiss Hank's ass with us."

Me: "Do you kiss Hank's ass often?"

Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."

Me: "And has He given you a million dollars?"

John: "Well no. You don't actually get the money until you leave town."

Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"

Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and He kicks the shit out of you."

Bolded text exposes so called religious meaning for crock of BS

 

[Diogenes' Dog]

How in the hell can you call believing in arbitrary delusion "meaningful"? What about believing in fire breezing dragons? What you mean by meaningful? If believing in God creates a "meaning" for you, you can create lots of meanings using other means than invisible friends (you are getting to know ???? ). It's you who are the ultimate creator of your meanings. For example, most folks (believers and non believers alongside) find tremendous meaning in status, money, food, fucking, power, etc. They spend WAY, WAY more energy pursuing those things than worshiping ANY deity under Sun. Sorry souls spending more energy on worship of their invisible friends are rather exceptions.

You don't sound happy DM... (Perhaps it's your lack of a belief!)

Excellent rant though!!

I'm not sure I understand the metaphor of the Hank story...
Pascal's Wager is about the good life now, not just when you die!

 

[dixonmassey]

You don't sound happy DM... (Perhaps it's your lack of a belief!)

Excellent rant though!!

I'm not sure I understand the metaphor of the Hank story...
Pascal's Wager is about the good life now, not just when you die!

Lobotomy is the only way to perpetual happiness, man, it's not Jesus . Magic Mushrooms are good too. For some people there are greater things than deluded bliss whatever it may be. However, by observing all kinds of believers, I will tell ya, rumors about believer's bliss and life transforming changes are greatly, greatly exaggerated (mildly speaking). Of course, you can always say that those are not the true believers.

Self-awareness comes at a price unknown to animals, you cannot avoid paying that price even if you believe in a boogie man up in the sky. Believing may (and frequently does) cut some into a price sticker, guess how , you better guess so I would not sound insulting. But the price is never zero.

 

[Diogenes' Dog]

Lobotomy is the only way to perpetual happiness, man, it's not Jesus . Magic Mushrooms are good too. For some people there are greater things than deluded bliss whatever it may be. However, by observing all kinds of believers, I will tell ya, rumors about believer's bliss and life transforming changes are greatly, greatly exaggerated (mildly speaking). Of course, you can always say that those are not the true believers.

Wouldn't dream of it! I'm sure they are 100% genuine and it's probably not the easiest choice. It might still be rewarding though (if the research is to be believed).

Mushies are the Dulux of deluded blisses, but temporary, while a labotomy doesn't sound that great (though it's permanent) - you could try trepanning instead? Permanant bliss might be an unrealistic expectation - I'll settle for a life of aimiable purpose!

Self-awareness comes at a price unknown to animals, you cannot avoid paying that price even if you believe in a boogie man up in the sky. Believing may (and frequently does) cut some into a price sticker, guess how , you better guess so I would not sound insulting. But the price is never zero.

Who says the boogie man is up in the sky - not within you already? Maybe it IS you! Then there's NO escape!
Ah, the dreaded price sticker of self-awareness!! We crucify ourselves with our own thoughts, judgements, grievances.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Either way you win! Good old Blaise Pascal!!

They must have given him the keys to the convent

So religious people live longer healthier lives according to stats.

Stats also show that people with high IQ's are less apt to be religious. Yet people with low IQ"s don't live as long as those with Higher IQ's. IOW low IQ people are are more apt to be religious (believe in God) and will die earlier than their higher IQ atheist counterparts. Plenty of websites will verify my words. SOmebody's got it wrong. Pascal didn't give two shits about this life, it's all about being judged when you die.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

-=-

There's no predicting what would please a god, how long it would be pleased or what it would do if it were pleased.
Scripture portrays god as ultra selfish, myopic, insecure, petty, angry, hateful, sadistic, childish & insane. And having less regard for humans than humans have for ants.

Do you really think that if such a thing as god exists, it couldn't handle the task of making itself known to you? Which is ironically the foundation of some religions that seem to want to take the place of such knowledge. But that's each of our own responsibity. So like us to want to put it into the hands of an institution.

It either can't handle it or doesn't want to.
It is not my responsibility. Stop saying it is.