pornography and feminism

della-dee

Registered Member
Does the portrayal of women in most pornographic films objectify women and affect society's view of women?
Does pornography contribute to rape and harrassment?

Should pornography be protected under the First Amendment as speech?

Have you ever heard of Andrea Dworkin or Catherine McKInnon?
Have you ever read Martha Nussbaum's Sex and Social Justice?

This is a very interesting topic for me. My position is that pornographic filmmakers and adult magazine publishers should have the same artistic freedoms as every one else. But I also think that these materials do need censorship.

If we disclude snuff films, I would have to say that yes, some porn objectifies women, but also men - it depends on the film.

But some feminists believe that porn shapes the minds of young people and shapes how they view sex and the opposite gender.

I like this topic because my opinions are not firm on either side of the argument, and I sort of wish they were.


I would like to try to argue this seriously and not be bombarded by gross comments. thanks!
 
Technecly, young people aren't supossed to see porn.

Censorship is the least of my concern though.

The affect on the viewers is less important then the affect on the adult film stars and models. Many off them were abused or raped early on, and are living less and less healthy lives. The people who run adult film buisnesses are often dangerous people who don't give the girls a way out.

You shouldn't censor it as long as it isn't easily acsessed by minors, but you should make sure the film stars are treated well(whatever the hell well means. thate a totally different debate. Then again, getting side tracked is what these forums are all about.)
 
The whole concept of "objectification" of women strikes me as muddle-headed. What do those feminists want to be known as? Verbs? nouns in the nominative case? So tell me, are they afraid of being seen as direct objects or indirect objects? The former, I guess.

What females don't need is to be controlled against their will; in other words they need to be free to make choices according to their nature.

As for the harm of pornography, yes the women should not be harmed in its making. So long as the activity portrayed in the pornography is legal (else the photographer is an accessory to the crime), I don't think it should be banned, though. Freedom of speech and expression are extremely important.

I think the main reason so many people look at pornography warily is that so much of it is bad. When sex or nudity is presented in the media, it is not generally presented as something beautiful, but as something degraded. I don't think there is any profound explanation, just that the heads of HBO, Cinemax, Showtime, etc., don't have good business sense. Take the recent series on ABC about who are the sexiest people in America. Do they really think many males find it sexy to judge females by precise characteristics of chin structure, breast size, etc.? I'm sure that very few males judge that way. That show would have done much better if they just put the females up there in sexy bikinis, let them express themselves a little bit, and then had the judges say something at least halfway poetical or smart about why the females were sexy/not sexy (e.g., something about what the judges think the appearance implies about the females' personality). They only got the sexy bikinis right. A show like that presumably appeals to people who judge the opposite sex by appearance, so why the *%$&! did they concentrate on degrading people who judge by appearance by making out that such people judge extremely superficially. Does it make business sense for a network to produce a show that degrades its audience. No, of course not. How come the media when portraying nudity or sex almost invariably cater to a trashy audience? People marvel that MTV's ratings have gone down. No surprise to me. They're total idiots. All they have to do is show sexy innocent girls in bikinis and half the men in America would watch. No, the stupid twits, they go to drunken bashes full of girls and boys not being not at all innocent and hire Jerry Springer to degrade them even more. It would be difficult to force oneself to watch. That such shows can do even somewhat well is a testament to people's desire for a better intuitive understanding of sexuality. Someone could make scads of money and do great service to society by portraying pretty nude/semi-nude females in the mainstream media who seem to possess decent half-way sensical sensibilities toward sex. Those are the females the vast majority of men are interested in.

It's tempting to think that so much pornography is bad because there is something of an alliance between prudish women and rakish men. It's obvious why disgusting men want sexuality degraded--portraying sexuality as degraded makes their own degradations seem more normal and thus more acceptable. Prudish women, on the other hand, want affectionate sexual behavior to seem degraded because if people view affectionate behavior as degraded, they have an excuse for not being affectionate--for being cruelly mercenary and calculating in their mating behavior. Note that the groups that want sex and nudity to be portrayed as disgusting don't want the portrayals to be disgusting so much because they really want to look at disgusting pornography, but because they want others to view it and sex as disgusting. Thus, it is not the audience of pornography that wants pornography to be disgusting, it is the people who try to make others watch it (who apparently dwell excessively at MTV, ABC, Cinemax, HBO, etc.); therefore, it is not audience desires that are responsible for nudity being portrayed as disgusting, but stupid management in media companies.

As for the internet, I have noticed that portrayal of sex is much more likely to be disgusting and ugly than portrayal of nudity. Unlike the latter, which on the internet often is artistic and sexy, I couldn't imagine myself seeking out the former. So though I don't support a ban on either, a ban on portrayal of nudity would IMHO be several degrees of magnitude worse than a ban on portrayals of sex.
 
della-dee:
Does the portrayal of women in most pornographic films objectify women and affect society's view of women?

Of course. Just as the newest Mel Gibson movie both forms and conforms our view of what a man "should be", so does a Tiffany Mynx flick.

Does pornography contribute to rape and harrassment?

I have seen no valid evidence that it does.

Should pornography be protected under the First Amendment as speech?

Of course.

Have you ever heard of Andrea Dworkin or Catherine McKInnon?

I've read Dworkin extensively, but not Mckinnon.

Andrea is a brilliant woman who, unfortunately, allows her passion to supersede logic.

For instance, attacking the first amendment, the very first amendment that allows her to publish her work without fear of censorship.

This is a very interesting topic for me. My position is that pornographic filmmakers and adult magazine publishers should have the same artistic freedoms as every one else. But I also think that these materials do need censorship.

I'm confused? You claim that they deserve artistic freedom, yet then say that they should be censored...

Isn't this a contradiction?

step:

Your arguments are quite illogical, if they can even be called arguments. Nor have you presented any supporting evidence for them. Please go away and come back when you're willing to communicate like a semi-logical human being.

Do they really think many males find it sexy to judge females by precise characteristics of chin structure, breast size, etc.?

Actually, this is how attractiveness is judged - just not consciously.
 
Does the portrayal of women in most pornographic films objectify women and affect society's view of women?

I think anything will objectify the views society has on women. Jobs, sexual orientation, even the clothes we wear will somehow encapsulate us to an extent. It depends more on the individual watching the content than society as a whole. Societys view on women has always been and always will be lower than that of a man.

Does pornography contribute to rape and harrassment?

It does and it doesn't. To the average joe, viewing pornography will do nothing but get his jollies off. To a sexual predator, yes, I think viewing such footage could possibly drive him to commit a crime. But again, this is the individual and I dont think it has anything to do with pornography. He could just as easily be driven to commit a crime by watching children play in a park.

Should pornography be protected under the First Amendment as speech?

Yes.

Have you ever heard of Andrea Dworkin or Catherine McKInnon?

A bit. Not enough to comment.

Have you ever read Martha Nussbaum's Sex and Social Justice?

No.

Edit: Welcome to Sciforums della-dee:)
 
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porn is NOT free speech

visual imagery is processed COMPLETELY different in the brain..

as for porn..read the truth on KINSEY ..the perv.

porn sucks cuz it's false about the truth of the beauty of intimacy and love
 
visual imagery is processed COMPLETELY different in the brain..

Of course it is, but that's not the issue.

The Supreme Court has ruled in Burstyn v. Wilson that movies and visual materials are a form of speech.

as for porn..read the truth on KINSEY ..the perv.

Kinsey was a brilliant and ethical man, regardless of what lies you religious psychotics spew.

porn sucks

And swallows, and often comes on your face. :)

cuz it's false about the truth of the beauty of intimacy and love

Ah, but since porn does not cover "intimacy and love". It covers sex.

*Edit*
While some would argue that sex (and the requisite power exchange) is an expression of love and or affection, it is quite absurd to argue that sex is necessarily the physical analog to the emotion of love.

Certainly sex can be an expression of affection, especially for one who's ability to express affection verbally or physically is limited - however, sex is usually a simple means to pleasure.
 
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porn sucks cuz it's false about the truth of the beauty of intimacy and love

Ummm... I dont think the producers, directors, actors or even the viewing audience is aiming at capturing the beauty of intimacy on the big screen.
Its made to sell and judging by how huge the industry is, I think it working. It is a form of pleasure, just like nudie clubs and magazines. It could considered sick to certain individuals, but the majority of the people I know actually like a good porn from time to time.

And yes, it is considered freedom of speech.
 
Your arguments are quite illogical, if they can even be called arguments. Nor have you presented any supporting evidence for them. Please go away and come back when you're willing to communicate like a semi-logical human being.

Golly, I'm really quaking in my boots. Considering that with the possible exception of moral philosophy I have studied math (which basically is logic) and logic more than any fields, it is quite surprising that I could be so stupid.

One thing is for sure, you are a hypocrite and a liar. I of course gave reasons for many of my beliefs (e.g., I gave plausible explanations for why two groups of people might have selfish motives to portray sex as disgusting, which can furnish an explanation for the portrayals being disgusting). That makes you a liar. A curious liar, too, because anyone can just read my previous post and see, yeah, that you are a liar. Furthermore, you do not explain why my arguments are illogical. If you think supporting evidence is so important, why do you not give supporting evidence? Similarly with your last statement, you give no evidence that attractiveness is usually judged (unconsciously) by men via simple physical characteristics of chin structure, breast size, etc. I should have thought the negation of that statement would be self-evident to most people. Not that there is anything particularly wrong or illogical about people presenting their opinions without evidence supporting them, but if that bothers you in others, why do you do it yourself? It makes you look like a hypocrite.
 
step:

Your last post made no sense. Would you please retype after taking a few years of remedial English?

One thing is for sure, you are a hypocrite and a liar. I of course gave reasons for many of my beliefs (e.g., I gave plausible explanations for why two groups of people might have selfish motives to portray sex as disgusting, which can furnish an explanation for the portrayals being disgusting).

I never said that you did not give reasons. Please learn to read while you are taking your remedial courses. :)

I noted that your arguments were illogical.

You claim that sex is portrayed as disgusting. Yet you give no evidence that this is the case, nor do you even define "disgusting".

Your argument is littered with assumptions and culturally-conditioned value judgements, none of which are shown to have a logical basis. Thus your argument is completely illogical and fairly demented. Your inabilty to communicate using a decent or understandable sentance structure does not help the problem.

e? Similarly with your last statement, you give no evidence that attractiveness is usually judged (unconsciously) by men via simple physical characteristics of chin structure, breast size, etc. I should have thought the negation of that statement would be self- evident to most people.

This is well known to anyone who has even the lightest knowledge of evolutionary psychology:

http://www.stir.ac.uk/Departments/H...Staff/isp1/HBES_amherst_files/v3_document.htm

http://www.perceptionweb.com/perabs/p30/p3123.html

http://pcptpp030.psychologie.uni-regensburg.de/beautycheck/english/symmetrie/symmetrie.htm
 
What you last said:

I never said that you did not give reasons.


What you earlier said:



Nor have you presented any supporting evidence for them.

What your third reference actually says:




Based on our results, symmetry only seems to be a rather weak indicator for attractiveness. Often it is even difficult to distinguish between the original and the perfectly symmetrical version, because irregularities in shape are rather insignificant. Therefore, the strong influence of symmetry that has been reported in the scientific literature over and over again is questionable.
 
Originally posted by Goofyfishi
Hi to you all!
I am newbie here I find this forum interesting and before I step on someone’s foot, I wonder if topics concerning Sex are allowed, things like sound recording, pictures, links, etc.???
Thanks
This is a very interesting place, the subject is Hot, but the conversations are beginning to sound like an essay in masturbation.:mad:
 
step314

i assume you are female, ever looked at a guys ass?
this goes for ANYONE who says that a guy looking at a girl is wrong, have you ever looked at a guy and gone "hes YUMMY"?

feminisum is stupid (and yes xev i STILL stick by that:p)


Goofyfishi

i apologise for that, i have been away for a few days, feel free to PM me if there is a problem in future because i get my PMs before i start browsing the forums
 
kev, do you really state INFORMED opinion?

you are not thinking through

a supreme court justice makes a decision on not knowing any neuroscience?

as for Kinsey, ever read about him. I mean the guy stuck the bristle end of a toothbrush up his penis..

this is today..and free speech was never intended to cover some forms of media. photography wasn't even invented when the constitution was written.

now to me enforcement of obscenity laws is to protect women and children. most child sexual abuse cases involve porn as part of the seducement or 'attack' ..whatever the point may be.

i suggest you read Dr. Judith Reisman's research.

you want to side w/the ACLU..fine.. but remember they tried to get child porn legalized years ago in a new york case. thank goodness the judge had the clarity to call child porn a documented case of child abuse, and therefore, not to be legal.

porn is just a business..nothing more. it is not needed in any way what so ever. all it does is manipulate a system towards addiction to catch a consumer and it waste earth's resources.

and, i don't think my words are 'feminism' i think they are based on research i have read..and truth as i see it.
 
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what is wrong with people watching porn as oposed to buying a cherry ripe?

if ur over 16 and so are they (altho i think its 18 for porn) then good for u

what happens is no one elses buiness but those involved
 
do you have family?

you'd think that way if a sister, a daughter..or even a friend you cared about went that path?

did you know most in porn are from abusive homes?

you don't think things through.

you can defend it all you want. most defend addictions they like..doesn't mean it's a healthy or good addiction.

i say REAL men don't use porn.

you want a loving relationship.. then know what loving sensuality is like.

it boils down to what do you want..good touch and a loving relationship w/shared respect and honor for one another... or you, alone, whacking off?

it's amazing the education porn has done.. just stimulate a few hormones.. and catch a consumer... smart, very smart.
 
to della

porn is a multi-billion dollar business w/organized crime in the background.

is porn related to crimes against women and children... read the research.

i say if you want a good lover, don't..and i mean don't, let a man who is into porn touch you. He'll be absolutely clueless on touching you w/love and eros. For one thing, part of the beauty the sensuality of intimacy is the time being for two..sharing the sense of touch and passion and sexuality. There's a wonderful power and beauty in it.

Putting porn in your intimate relationship is like putting a manual next to the toilet on how to poop..

get what i mean?
 
I hate bitter, hairy, lesbians:mad:
Its not even that I love porn or anything like that I'm just realistic enough to realise that its no big deal and I think its lame that you feel so strongly against it.
Using up earth's resources? Give me a break, what the hell does that mean? Which form of porn is using up earth's resources? Magazines? No more than dumb girl magazines which are undeniably more pointless and lame. Or home renovation magazines, why don't you have a problem with those and how they are using up earths resources?
Its because this has nothing to do with resources, you are just mad because you don't like the idea of men looking at naked girls, I know the feeling, I feel sick when I see old drunk sluts hooting at male strippers but I don't try to mask my grossoutedness as some just fight for what is right.
If you must, find some REAL issue to feel passionate about, right now you are just wasting your life.
 
Requested....

Sorry for my cute objection.
Plz write your reply in shortwords dont make your point too lengthy bcz Time is very important
Thanks
Whats your qualification ??
and what you do ?? :) :) :) :)


Mod edit: please dont copy what others can clearly read by themselves
 
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