# Proof of the existence of God

The original cause is a nonsensical concept. If the universe began, that means it's beginning was also the beginning of time. Without time there is no causality.

What is time?

jan.

A, "decision in the direction of greater staisfaction"

and I find this naturally satisfying.

In the beginning was the word...

jan.

What is time?

jan.
You tell me. Maybe that would be a good topic for another thread.

You tell me. Maybe that would be a good topic for another thread.

You brought it up.

"Without time there is no causality."

jan.

Do you deny that time is necessary for events to occur?

Do you deny that time is necessarily for events to occur?

I'm not really sure at this point.

Let's talk about what time is.

jan.

It's a dimension, like the three dimensions of physical space.

It's a dimension, like the three dimensions of physical space.

Do you think it is necessary for the cause of space and time (itself)?

jan.

It's necessary for causation as a concept, which applies to the claim that the origin of all things needs a primal cause. You see it puts the cart before the horse. How can there be cause and effect before there is cause and effect?

Do you deny that time is necessary for events to occur?
Time = Duration (of something). A formalized mathematical construct of measuring "duration" when something changes from state a to state b.

I submit that space (a permittive medium) is necessary for change to occur, but that time is not a medium in and of itself, but is the mathematical accounting of geometric changes in space, the duration of events or series of events. Until there is dynamic change, (Father) Time does not exist as a seperate plenum independent of space, it is and can only be a property of manifest reality.

I believe time is created during the dynamic process of change. It is a "simultaneous by-product" of change. That is why the arrow of time is always forward.

You can measure Space, but you cannot measure Time, time itself is time-less. It just occurred to me that the saying "looking back in time" is actually an incoherent statement.

Better to say, "looking back in space to measure time passed"

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Space works as an argument too. If there was no space, there could be no action. All actions by our observation happen in space.

Space works as an argument too. If there was no space, there could be no action. All actions by our observation happen in space.
That's where my question lies.
A permittive condition (space) must exist for change to be able to take place, but does Time need to exist before change takes place?

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Yes, because space is meaningless without time.

It's necessary for causation as a concept, which applies to the claim that the origin of all things needs a primal cause. You see it puts the cart before the horse. How can there be cause and effect before there is cause and effect?

There only needs to be an initial cause.
That's where my question lies.
Space must exist for change to be able to take place, but does Time need to exist before change takes place?

To add, until the universe (reality) becomes manifest, time is not necessary.
The material world must exist in two states, manifest and unmanifest .

''The unmanifested is the Absolute, the pure and formless ground of being from which creation and manifestation arise. As such, the unmanifested is free from change, the unmoved mover. It also, necessarily, cannot be explained or comprehended in terms of any manifest reality.''

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmanifest

jan.

There only needs to be an initial cause.
I can also fly, all I need is an initial lift into the air. Oh right, I can't lift myself.

I can also fly, all I need is an initial lift into the air. Oh right, I can't lift myself.

No we can't lift ourselves, but we can create aeroplanes, and helicopters.

jan.

There only needs to be an initial cause.

To add, until the universe (reality) becomes manifest, time is not necessary.
The material world must exist in two states, manifest and unmanifest .

''The unmanifested is the Absolute, the pure and formless ground of being from which creation and manifestation arise. As such, the unmanifested is free from change, the unmoved mover. It also, necessarily, cannot be explained or comprehended in terms of any manifest reality.''

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmanifest

jan.

Bohm's hierarchical orders of the Implicate becoming Explicate in reality.
Bohm just recoined Aristotle's term "Active Intellect" ("unmoved mover"), with "Insight Intelligence".

I simply do not believe that this in any way resembles human thought, because it is a purely mathematical function, a pseudo intelligence, on a scale much larger than humans can comprehend, but no more sentient than a computer.

I call it Potential (That which may become reality) always in the direction of greater satisfaction.

"All knowledge is vain save when there is work" (Gibran). Work (change), not prayer.

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No we can't lift ourselves, but we can create aeroplanes, and helicopters.

jan.
That doesn't count as an argument.
Wind (air) of sufficient force can lift you quite easily also. Insects, being small and easily carried by the wind, learned to fly (lift themselves) hundreds of millions of years before man even existed.

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There only needs to be an initial cause.
Which there can't be. Initial is a word that itself implies the existence of time. "initial" as opposed to "subsequent".

Which there can't be. Initial is a word that itself implies the existence of time. "initial" as opposed to "subsequent".

''Initial'' refers to time and space.

jan.