Rational Certainty

ggazoo

Registered Senior Member
I touched on this in a couple of other threads. It seems that the major stumbling block for many atheists and agnostics is evidence. What I take from that is that they want "rational certainty". This is why many people today won't get married... they want this certainty. They aren't willing to take a risk. Well, the same applies to a relationship with God.

For example, if you are interviewing someone for a job, you can do all the research that you want. You can look at their resumé, check out their references, do a complete background check... everything that makes you as rationally certain as possible that they are the right person for the job. But, at some point, you're going to have to take a chance on that person; it other words, make a personal commitment to them. It's only then that you will get to certainty. You'll have a chance to see how they perform, and whether or not all of their credentials hold true.

For Christians, it works the same for a personal relationship with God. Rationality will only get you to probability. Personal commitment will get you to certainty.

Thoughts?
 
For Christians, it works the same for a personal relationship with God. Rationality will only get you to probability. Personal commitment will get you to certainty.
How does rational thought get you to probability in this scenario?
 
I touched on this in a couple of other threads. It seems that the major stumbling block for many atheists and agnostics is evidence. What I take from that is that they want "rational certainty". This is why many people today won't get married... they want this certainty. They aren't willing to take a risk. Well, the same applies to a relationship with God.

For example, if you are interviewing someone for a job, you can do all the research that you want. You can look at their resumé, check out their references, do a complete background check... everything that makes you as rationally certain as possible that they are the right person for the job. But, at some point, you're going to have to take a chance on that person; it other words, make a personal commitment to them. It's only then that you will get to certainty. You'll have a chance to see how they perform, and whether or not all of their credentials hold true.

For Christians, it works the same for a personal relationship with God. Rationality will only get you to probability. Personal commitment will get you to certainty.

Thoughts?

So how doe one get to interview God, check his credentials and so on before giving him the job ?
 
So how doe one get to interview God, check his credentials and so on before giving him the job ?
Oh they are fairly easy to check:

He claims to be 2000 years early for the interview, but hasn't shown up for the schedualed time. He won't return any calls, and none of his referances are valid. While his skills list is impressive, there is no mention of actual certification of them, hence we can't actualy verify he posesses them. To top it off, he has a criminal record which includes genocide. I think the descision is quite clear, and my hamster has him beat on all accounts.

As for marriage:
When you think about commiting to marriage, you have already gotten to intamently know the person. Would you marry someone you know nothing about? I can tell you I wouln't.
Furthermore, given a random relationship, chances are it doesn't work out (not too many marry the first person they date.)
There are ~3Billion possible people to marry, multiple of which may be 'compatible.'
There are an infinite number of gods, but only one of which can exist (by thier definition.) So you can see just how rediculouse an 'act of faith' is. There are infinitly greater odds of happily marrying someone in vegas (who you met while intoxicated at a poker table half an hour prior) than of having a meaningfull (or any) relationship with god.

Of course, one could argue you could spend some time with god, and give him up later if it doesnt work out... but many atheists have already, so the point is moot.
The theists saying "you should try to have a relaionship with him" are akin to the messages on your machine left by an achetypical psychotic ex begging for another chance, assuring that 'it will work out this time.'
Pfft!
Does this mean everyone should give god a shot once? Nope. You can safely tell your friend to avoide the psycho. They don't need to date her to be sure.

On this topic area, a reductio ad absurdem (of the actual logic of the argument): what if a hypothetical person had HIV (so said the test resaults) but the person assured you they were false, and that infact, they would give you the time of our life? Should you have sex them just to be sure?
No.
When the stakes are as high as my life, I'l let high probability decide my choice any day (and since every god I know* of requires you to model your life after them, the stakes are indeed my life.)

Conclusion:
Lack of 100% certainty is no reason to disregard evidence.
-Andrew

*Of course, I mentioned the idea of an infinite number of possible gods. Tell you what, I will humour you and try to have a personal relationship with the god named Apathetic: he doesnt give a fuck (about anything.) Since there is nothing to be done to 'know him' my life goes unchanged. How great! :)
 
It seems that the major stumbling block for many atheists and agnostics is evidence. What I take from that is that they want "rational certainty". This is why many people today won't get married... they want this certainty.They aren't willing to take a risk.
before you marry someone I think you can pretty well tell with about 99.9% of certainty if that someone loves you or not.
If you cant, you are just taking a chance.thats why many marriages fail,
some people just get hitched in a heat of the moment,some are goldiggers and so on...
Well, the same applies to a relationship with God.
no it doesnt.
how do you KNOW if god loves you,or if it even exists...?
when was the last time God bought you a drink or dinner or was there for you when you needed help?.thats what relationships are about!
praying to something invisible is just talking to yourself
For Christians, it works the same for a personal relationship with God. Rationality will only get you to probability. Personal commitment will get you to certainty.
certainty of WHAT?
 
Scorpius
Originally Posted by ggazoo
It seems that the major stumbling block for many atheists and agnostics is evidence. What I take from that is that they want "rational certainty". This is why many people today won't get married... they want this certainty.They aren't willing to take a risk.

before you marry someone I think you can pretty well tell with about 99.9% of certainty if that someone loves you or not.
If you cant, you are just taking a chance.thats why many marriages fail,
some people just get hitched in a heat of the moment,some are goldiggers and so on...
since the divorce rate is substantially higher than .01%, I guess it still remains a chance ....

Well, the same applies to a relationship with God.

no it doesnt.
how do you KNOW if god loves you,or if it even exists...?
I thought it was clearly presented in the OP
- by taking the chance
when was the last time God bought you a drink or dinner or was there for you when you needed help?
well, as for the water, I guess we are lucky that he keeps it sterile in large salt reservoirs and simultaneously transports and filters it by having a mammoth air delivery service (clouds) and deposits in large freezers (ice) where it can trickle down and meet our requirements.
As for needing his help, since we cannot exist for even a second in complete independence (water is just the tip of the ice berg), it would be difficult to indicate when was the last moment we didn't require his help
.thats what relationships are about!
praying to something invisible is just talking to yourself
your attempt to talk about the nature of having a relationship with god is just like a virgin talking about pregnancy
For Christians, it works the same for a personal relationship with God. Rationality will only get you to probability. Personal commitment will get you to certainty.

certainty of WHAT?
certainty of god of course .. provided you take the chance
;)
 
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I touched on this in a couple of other threads. It seems that the major stumbling block for many atheists and agnostics is evidence. What I take from that is that they want "rational certainty". This is why many people today won't get married... they want this certainty. They aren't willing to take a risk. Well, the same applies to a relationship with God.

For example, if you are interviewing someone for a job, you can do all the research that you want. You can look at their resumé, check out their references, do a complete background check... everything that makes you as rationally certain as possible that they are the right person for the job. But, at some point, you're going to have to take a chance on that person; it other words, make a personal commitment to them. It's only then that you will get to certainty. You'll have a chance to see how they perform, and whether or not all of their credentials hold true.

For Christians, it works the same for a personal relationship with God. Rationality will only get you to probability. Personal commitment will get you to certainty.

Thoughts?


The anology doesn't match. In each of your examples, both sides of the relationship can be demonstrated to exist.
 
Oh they are fairly easy to check:

He claims to be 2000 years early for the interview, but hasn't shown up for the schedualed time. He won't return any calls, and none of his referances are valid. While his skills list is impressive, there is no mention of actual certification of them, hence we can't actualy verify he posesses them. To top it off, he has a criminal record which includes genocide. I think the descision is quite clear, and my hamster has him beat on all accounts.

As for marriage:
When you think about commiting to marriage, you have already gotten to intamently know the person. Would you marry someone you know nothing about? I can tell you I wouln't.
Furthermore, given a random relationship, chances are it doesn't work out (not too many marry the first person they date.)
There are ~3Billion possible people to marry, multiple of which may be 'compatible.'
There are an infinite number of gods, but only one of which can exist (by thier definition.) So you can see just how rediculouse an 'act of faith' is. There are infinitly greater odds of happily marrying someone in vegas (who you met while intoxicated at a poker table half an hour prior) than of having a meaningfull (or any) relationship with god.

Of course, one could argue you could spend some time with god, and give him up later if it doesnt work out... but many atheists have already, so the point is moot.
The theists saying "you should try to have a relaionship with him" are akin to the messages on your machine left by an achetypical psychotic ex begging for another chance, assuring that 'it will work out this time.'
Pfft!
Does this mean everyone should give god a shot once? Nope. You can safely tell your friend to avoide the psycho. They don't need to date her to be sure.

On this topic area, a reductio ad absurdem (of the actual logic of the argument): what if a hypothetical person had HIV (so said the test resaults) but the person assured you they were false, and that infact, they would give you the time of our life? Should you have sex them just to be sure?
No.
When the stakes are as high as my life, I'l let high probability decide my choice any day (and since every god I know* of requires you to model your life after them, the stakes are indeed my life.)

Conclusion:
Lack of 100% certainty is no reason to disregard evidence.
-Andrew

*Of course, I mentioned the idea of an infinite number of possible gods. Tell you what, I will humour you and try to have a personal relationship with the god named Apathetic: he doesnt give a fuck (about anything.) Since there is nothing to be done to 'know him' my life goes unchanged. How great! :)


Never mind irrelevancies about marriage and so on which only serve to confuse the issue.

As you say, he doesn't show up for the interview, all you know about him is hearsay. despite which yhou give him the job. That's about the worst argument for God's existence I have ever heard.

How about the possibility of no God ? Should that not be one of your considerations ? Why consider the idea of an infinite gods ? How about an infinite number of teapots, which is equally plausible ?


And to cap it all you refer to "Apathy" based on your ridiculous notion that an atheist has not thought about his beliefs. I suggest that it is you who, by your own argument, have bought into something purely on the basis of blind faith. Needless to say. you have not adduced a scrap od evidence to support your asseertions.

Why not try a Creationist site ? They specialize in distorting the truth to fit their agenda. You will feel at home there.
 
As you say, he doesn't show up for the interview, all you know about him is hearsay. despite which yhou give him the job. That's about the worst argument for God's existence I have ever heard.
That's because it isn't one. Maybe you should read the post again - slowly.
 
certainty of god of course .. provided you take the chance

What does this taking the chance look like?

Say a person decides "Allright, I am going to take the chance and commit to what I think God is."
What is next?
What does this person do in the name of this commitment?
How does this person recognize that certain things that happen in their life are because of this commitment, while also recognizing which things that happen in their life are not because of this commitment?
 
well, as for the water, I guess we are lucky that he keeps it sterile in large salt reservoirs and simultaneously transports and filters it by having a mammoth air delivery service (clouds) and deposits in large freezers (ice) where it can trickle down and meet our requirements.
Ah yes. Africa: land of snow and ice. :rolleyes:
 
Oh it's H2O, alright - lots of it, for 6 months solid! Unfortunately, there are 12 of the awkward little buggers in a year. :(
Africa's potential water wars
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/454926.stm

Water scarcity is defined as less than 1,000 cu.m of water available per person per year, while water stress means less than 1,500 cu.m of water is available per person per year.

The report says that by 2025, 12 more African countries will join the 13 that already suffer from water stress or water scarcity
 
What does this taking the chance look like?

Say a person decides "Allright, I am going to take the chance and commit to what I think God is."
What is next?
What does this person do in the name of this commitment?
How does this person recognize that certain things that happen in their life are because of this commitment, while also recognizing which things that happen in their life are not because of this commitment?
There is a quote commonly referenced about a nine-fold process (which has received extensive commentary)

sraddha - faith (or taking the chance)
sadhu sangha - one becomes interested in associating with pure devotees
bhajana kriya - adopting the requirements/habits of pure devotion
anartha nivrtti - material contamination gets dispelled from the heart
nistha - fixed or firm faith (no longer under the shadow of doubt or uncertainty)
rucih - taste for spiritual life awakens(it is no longer a discipline of austerity)
asakti - one is spontaneously attracted - like for instance suppose there is a newspaper and a scripture siting beside one another, one will just be naturally attracted to picking up the scripture
bhava - attraction fructifies to emotional expression
prema - pure unadulterated love for god

At this point, explaining things past the fourth or fifth stage might be difficult to understand, but thats ok since most of what you ask is covered by the first four.

Basically if a person takes the chance, they take the opportunity to associate with persons more advanced than themselves - by association I mean hearing . If we are interested about something we usually express that interest by hearing from others more advanced than ourselves to find out more about it.

So the practical result of hearing from pure devotees is that one learns about things that should be done and should not be done.
And the result of applying those things is that one gets purified.
And the result of purification is that one can comfortably make a steady commitment to spiritual life.

An interesting point amongst the extensive commentaries on the subject is that the living entity has the tendency to get stuck for many, many, many, many lifetimes on the first and fourth stages - IOW having obtained the rare human birth, we tend to hesitate about taking the chance and also hesitate about applying the necessary prerequisites ... and thus run the risk of plunging headlong into the depths of samsara in one of the 8 400 000 species of life

As for recognizing the extent or nature of commitments, that is kind of difficult to explain. The only way I can think to explain it is in terms of what are called "the three modes (or gunas) of material nature" - but just to keep things simple, you could try reading this from 18.21 to 18.40.

Basically the closer we come to the mode of goodness, the closer we come to seeing things as they actually are.
The closer we come to the mode of passion, the closer we come to seeing things in a fractured way.
The closer we come to the mode of ignorance, the closer we come to seeing things in a totally misleading way.

So everyone is seeing something (and claiming that their seeing is authoritative or carries merit or something) but it is only that type of seeing in the mode of goodness that is actually seeing. So recognizing something as a consequence of one's commitments basically boils down to one being able to recognize the influence of goodness, passion and ignorance in one's life.

Hence the general outline for religiousity is (or at least, should be)

SB 11.13.2: When the living entity becomes strongly situated in the mode of goodness, then religious principles, characterized by devotional service to Me, become prominent. One can strengthen the mode of goodness by cultivation of those things that are already situated in goodness, and thus religious principles arise.

SB 11.13.3: Religious principles, strengthened by the mode of goodness, destroy the influence of passion and ignorance. When passion and ignorance are overcome, their original cause, irreligion, is quickly vanquished.
 
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Oh it's H2O, alright - lots of it, for 6 months solid! Unfortunately, there are 12 of the awkward little buggers in a year. :(
ok so this is something different (after all, africans are drinking water, as opposed to anything else) ... but thats okay - there's a thread already on the subject


as hume proposes
2) The world is controlled by strict laws. But if God has to resort to rule of law, how can He be perfect?
and
4) Though the different parts of the great machine of nature work together systematically, these parts (for instance, rainfall) are sometimes deficient, sometimes excessive. Thus it seems nature works without higher supervision. Why, if God is infallible?
 
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Oh wait, I've found it now. You directed me to the wrong part. :rolleyes:
When a person performs sinful activities, reactions such as flood, drought, famine, pestilence and so on are destined by time to fall upon him in this and future lifetimes.
So tendency to sin is strongly tied to geography, yes?
 
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