# Reality is mathematics / Mathematics is reality ?

I do, think objectively. You don't need to know what specific value, as long as you can translate relative values.
Yup. A human process.

A right triangle of any size has measurable values, no?
Certainly. Measurement is a human invention.

Actual values are determined by size of the triangle which is variable.
Yup. A human process.

every discussion always disintegrates into a semantic riddle.
Yes. You do that a lot - when you talk about things like "natural values" - a single example of which you have yet to demonstrate - let alone show how it would make the slightest difference if it were true.

No, that your interpreatation and is is not relevant in this context.
I interpreted nothing. I quoted you. Your references; your interpretation of the word 'value'.

Now you're also going to have to demonstrate where "good", "worth" and "ethical" have meaning to the universe in a way unrelated to humans.

For the umpteenth time, I am a hard atheist.
Don't be so certain.

You are asserting that the values of "goodness", "worthiness" and "ethics" are a natural part of the universe.

If you want to stand by your assertion of being an atheist, maybe don't voice such beliefs.

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Yup. A human process.
Nope, a human observation and copy of a natural process.
Certainly. Measurement is a human invention.
From observation of natural geometry.
Yup. A human process.
Nope, a human observation and copy of a natural process.
Yes. You do that a lot - when you talk about things like "natural values" - a single example of which you have yet to demonstrate - let alone show how it would make the slightest difference if it were true.
If you don't take the time to peruse the examples I provide, I cannot accommodate your whims.
When you look at a flower, you are observing several deterministic values which define the pattern.

A fractal is a pattern that the laws of nature repeat at different scales. Examples are everywhere in the forest. Trees are natural fractals, patterns that repeat smaller and smaller copies of themselves to create the biodiversity of a forest.Nov 4, 2018

Its mathematical value can be expressed by the Fibonacci Sequence ( a universal exponential function).

You just don't recognize a "value" when you observe it. You need to try a little harder to understand the fundamental principle on which the term "value" is founded.
Absolute values,
In mathematics, the absolute value or modulus |x| of a real number x is the non-negative value of x without regard to its sign. Namely, |x| = x for a positive x, |x| = −x for a negative x (in which case −x is positive), and |0| = 0.
For example, the absolute value of 3 is 3, and the absolute value of −3 is also 3. The absolute value of a number may be thought of as its distance from zero.
Generalisations of the absolute value for real numbers occur in a wide variety of mathematical settings. For example, an absolute value is also defined for the complex numbers, the quaternions, ordered rings, fields and vector spaces.
The absolute value is closely related to the notions of magnitude, distance, and norm in various mathematical and physical contexts.
The graph of the absolute value function for real numbers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_value

Relative values are abstractions of extant absolute values.

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If you want to stand by your assertion of being an atheist, maybe don't voice such beliefs
Because it immediately elicits a knee-jerk response of something supernatural, completely ignoring the fact that a quasi-intelligent (logical) mathematical universe is indistinguishable from an intelligent (logical) mathematical universe.

Human mathematics are founded on observation of natural mathematical values and functions as they present themselves in nature. Our mathematics are symbolic representations of "absolute and derivative values and functions" extant in the universe.

A tree is a quasi-intelligent 3D pattern (shaped by natural evolutionary processes) which answers to all universal laws. A painting of a tree is an intelligent 2D pattern (shaped by a painter) which breaks many universal laws, but may be pleasant to look at.
It's value lies in the artistic, even if unnatural, rendering.

Just like the biblical tree of knowledge of good and evil in Paradise. Now that tree had some extraordinary "value". Enough to get Adam and Eve kicked out of paradise as an eternal punishment, a value judgement by God, after they ate the fruit of the tree.

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Human mathematics are founded on observation of natural mathematical values and functions as they present themselves in nature. Our mathematics are symbolic representations of "absolute values and functions" extant in the universe.
But this observation is a natural thing, a part of nature.
Humans perhaps have brains which perceive the world mathematically (albeit not as equations). I've seen something about how our audio-visual systems seem to be programmed with Fourier transform "software". The symbols we write out for a Fourier series, say, is a slightly different matter, like the painting of a tree is different to a tree.

But this "intelligent 2D pattern", does a snail create an intelligent slime trail? Is a trail of footprints an intelligent pattern? How does this break many universal laws? What universal laws?

Nope, a human observation and copy of a natural process.
I've asked five separate times to see pictures of these natural values. Five times you've shown us something made by humans.

Unless you can show me a picture of these natural values in nature - and not in words or books - you're simply talking out of your hat.

If you don't take the time to peruse the examples I provide, I cannot accommodate your whims.
Yep. All your examples are human measurements. Not a single value in the wild so far.

You just don't recognize a "value" when you observe it.
You need to stop mangling existing words to suit your narrative,

This mangling has reached the point where you now have to defend "goodness" and "ethics" in the natural world - since that's the definition you're resorted to.

Relative values are abstractions of extant absolute values.
Something you have completely failed to show even exists.

I've asked five separate times to see pictures of these natural values. Five times you've shown us something made by humans.

You are looking a value consisting of a set of similar values and being a vegetable it has great nutritional value. Additional values contained in this natural pattern is its evolved use of "Phi".
And all that evolved from a certain quanta of pure raw energy existing in a limited space.
The most valuable commodity in the universe.

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A tree is a quasi-intelligent 3D pattern
And we spin the wheel again!

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Because it immediately elicits a knee-jerk response of something supernatural...
Exactly.

If you didn't believe the universe had a form of intelligence, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all.

You believe the universe has a form of intelligence, but you are in denial.

Just like the biblical tree of knowledge of good and evil in Paradise. Now that tree had some extraordinary "value". Enough to get Adam and Eve kicked out of paradise as an eternal punishment, a value judgement by God, after they ate the fruit of the tree.

You have brought it back around to God. As predicted.

If you didn't believe the universe had a form of intelligence, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all
Well, I consider the ability for orderly (mathematical) processing of natural values and functions as a form of quasi-intelligent information processing function. Not much different than our wireless transmissions are actually performed by natural means. Space itself is the natural carrier of our and all other dynamical information in wave form.

Universal functions do not require "motive' for orderly progression. Orderly progression is inherent in the deterministic dual mathematical physical wave/particle essence of the geometry of spacetime. Quantum patterns demand mathematical structures. (CDT?)

The universe has necessity for order and the physical determination of relative mathematical values and functions of physical spacetime provide sufficient self-referential tools for providing that order.

Necessity <--> Sufficiency, a fundamental abstract universal law of geometric Logic. No woo....

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But this observation is a natural thing, a part of nature.
Humans perhaps have brains which perceive the world mathematically (albeit not as equations). I've seen something about how our audio-visual systems seem to be programmed with Fourier transform "software". The symbols we write out for a Fourier series, say, is a slightly different matter, like the painting of a tree is different to a tree.
But for human the value does not lie in the realism itself, but in our recognition of the realism, whereas nature does not need our recognition at all. Reality unfolds in an orderly manner which can be symbolised by our human mathematics.
But this "intelligent 2D pattern", does a snail create an intelligent slime trail? Is a trail of footprints an intelligent pattern? How does this break many universal laws? What universal laws?
In the a priori case of universal energetic potential, the wave/particle duality allows for the spontaneous self-expression of mathematical electromagnetic patterns.
Universal Laws are the regular observable values and functional constants by which physical phenomena are expressed in at least our reality. It is the total amount of existential potential inherent in the fabric of spacetime.

Well, the brainless single-celled "slime-mold" does leave an intelligent trail, so that it can tell where it has been.... Boy-scout stuff.

Quasi-intelligent???
and even more interesting

Well, I consider the ability for orderly (mathematical) processing of natural values...
And yet, you can't produce a single image of one independent of mankind's hand.
So, "consider" all you want, there's no basis for it.

And yet, you can't produce a single image of one independent of mankind's hand.
So, "consider" all you want, there's no basis for it.
And means by which man's hand produces images is by following the natural values and functional rules by which nature produces reality as man has observed and confirmed.
It's not difficult to imitate natural operations. They are mathematical in essence and easily managed . A lot of laboratories are dependent on grant money for offering imitations of natural processes.

IMO, 85% of all medicines are derived from or based on the observed chemical properties of medicinal plants. So who invented anti-biotics, man or nature? Animals used these natural medicines for millions of years.

OP; Reality is mathematics / Mathematics is reality?

OK; Reality is mathematical in essence/ energy plus mathematical functions results in physical reality.
Reality is a result of change in a hierarchy of mathematical (logical) orders.

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And means by which man's hand produces images is by following the natural values and functional rules
Baseless assertion. Unable to produce a single image of a natural value.

You should take this up with river. He, like you, makes assertions he is unable to support.

And yet, you can't produce a single image of one independent of mankind's hand
And therefore the "territory" doesn't exist?
Is that a logical argument when the question includes the assumption of an independent territory.

The territory exists independent of man and consists of a collection of patterns (sets of values). But as we are part of the territory we can, apart from subjective observation, also perform objectively observations and understand the expressed patterns in our environment . That's the function of evolution and natural selection of sufficient values, based on the logic of "Necessity and Sufficiency".

How does the universe calculate the Fibonacci Sequence?

Baseless assertion. Unable to produce a single image of a natural value.

You should take this up with river. He, like you, makes assertions he is unable to support.
Can you produce an image of an unnatural value? You can't even produce an exact copy of a mental image generated by your own brain.

value = inherent potential, its really not complicated when you accept mathematics by which we can understand reality as a continuum of unfolding mathematical patterns.

How does the universe calculate pi?