Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
What can be done to have all religions reject their teachings that women are inferior to men.
Alex
Alex
Religion and women.
- Thread starter Xelasnave.1947
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My response may not be welcome because I am NOT religious.
However I have witnessed men who have claimed to be Religious (Catholic, Christian, Jewish and others...) yet did not adhere to their various Tenets, Dogmas, Rules...whatever, like I stated I am NOT Religious so I do not know of the proper words to describe all of the various Religious Rules!
At any rate, if a supposedly Religious person Lies, Cheats, Steals, Runs around outside of their Marriage or Commitment...basicly ignores any and all of the Commandments...it seems, to me at least, that they have already Rejected their Religions Teachings!
So, it would seem to me to be quite the "Cop Out" and just simply refusing to accept Personal Responsibility for ones actions by using any excuse along the lines of : "That is what I was taught in Church"!
You claimed to have been involved in the Court System at one time, Alex...would the excuse : " I Do Not Follow Any Of My Religions Rules, Tenets, Dogmas, Commandments or Laws EXCEPT My Religions Edict That Women Must Be Inferior To Men", fly in the Court of Law?
Seriously, Alex, I am NOT religious so I cannot accept any mans rational for Mistreating/Disrespecting/Abusing women on his Religions Teachings.
sculptor
Valued Senior Member
You could start by telling people that GOD is female.
(that's what I do)
Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
Your response is always welcome and I sincerely thank you for posting in this thread.
Yes I agree with you there for sure.
My drift is however if you look at the scriptures they always present women as inferior. The list of quotes in the other thread is solid evidence that the church ( religion in general) is advocating that women are inferior....Do you see that? if not read the various quotes...and so my claim is can this be a good thing for our culture that happily is trying to move past the beliefs of the ancient folk who contributed to the bible.
If there is any responsibility to be accepted could in not be laid at the feet of the church...,they say repeatedly women are second class in effect...don't you think that sends a message and do you doubt that message does not trickle in over time.
I think your attempt here whatever it was missed the mark...I am not talking about a man using the church to support his bad behaviour rather I am saying bad behaviour could be reasonably expected when one of the main bodies behind our culture openly says over and over that women are inferior...the church is guilty of bad behaviour and could one not wonder how their negative message does not contribute heavily to the lack of respect for women..this attitude is further demonstrated in the fact women are excluded from various positions in the church.
So ...as it would often be the case if a child goes up in this situation would it be any surprise that he is found to hold a less than positive attitude to women...look at the quotes and ask why retain them, ask if such nonsense should be removed and in their place more positive messages put forward...look into domestic violence a d the aspect arises that religious men think they are still back in the ancient times and I submit the teachings of religion endorse that as ok.
I believe you can find in some bibles reference that says you can beat your wife so long as the stick is no thicker than your finger... I must look in mine but that came up on The Atheist Experience and that claim was not refuted...but there is plenty of material to draw up on that clearly shows the churches attitude is summed up rather well in the quotes in the other thread...you may notice that no one has said how wrong that is,,,that tells us a great deal don't you think..like a refusal to sheet home blame to where it should go.
Well read the quotes in the other thread and give consideration as to how such can only have a negative impact.
Suggest a female Pope..all will say not possible..er why? I would love to ask a church elder that question and indulge the BS that follows...can you imagine the reasons....
Thanks again.
Alex
Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
Well it would make sense if we are to have the myth..women create life in effect...
It would be nice if we had a Mommy and Daddy god each holding positions of equal respect..but women don't get a look in...oh you do have poor Mary getting involved becoming party to a scenario that one must wonder if she had any say...if you try and consider the plot it really does fall apart.
Anyways I can not see much participation here as it does not fit the reality already constructed and put in place that says all blame is on terrible old men ...one in particular it would seem...I don't know why I bother...thanks for contributing ..much appreciated.
Alex
This is a follow on from a previous post I can't find
Ireland's 'brutally misogynistic culture' saw the death of 9,000 children in mother and baby homes, report finds
https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/12/europe/ireland-mother-baby-homes-final-report-intl/index.html
Ireland's 'brutally misogynistic culture' saw the death of 9,000 children in mother and baby homes, report finds
https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/12/europe/ireland-mother-baby-homes-final-report-intl/index.html
I am not sure what "various quotes"you refer to in what thread - I do not recall reading Biblical quotes in any "other thread ".
It does seem rather odd, Alex, that you ignore the fact that evidently their Religions Teaching of the Rules/Commandments DID NOT "trickle in over time" and nowadays Lying, Cheating, Stealing, Infidelity, etc runs rampant...
And yet , for some reason, only the "women are inferior" Rule DID "trickle in over time"?
Meh...like I stated previously : it would seem to me to be quite the "Cop Out" and just simply refusing to accept Personal Responsibility for ones actions by using any excuse along the lines of : "That is what I was taught in Church"!
Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
Sorry DMOE..page 19 of the sexist thread.
I will try and put them here for you.
Yes I agree but you miss my point.
I am saying it is wrong for the church to treat women as inferior.
I do not refer to anyone saying I have the church's word that women are inferior.
And as to personal responsibility I agree that's how folk should live...I do think the church system makes it too easy to avoid personal responsibility..with..it's in God's hands type of talk...
Alex
Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
AUGUSTINE
Bishop of Hippo, Doctor of the Church and Latin Father, 354-430
“I don’t see what sort of help woman was created to provide man with, if one excludes procreation. If woman is not given to man for help in bearing children, for what help could she be? To till the earth together? If help were needed for that, man would have been a better help for man. The same goes for comfort in solitude. How much more pleasure is it for life and conversation when two friends live together than when a man and a woman cohabitate?”
De Genesi ad literam (The Literal Meaning of Genesis) 9.5.9 (Read it here.)
“. . . woman was given to man, woman who was of small intelligence and who perhaps still lives more in accordance with the promptings of the inferior flesh than by superior reason. Is this why the apostle Paul does not attribute the image of God to her?”
De Genesi ad literam Book 11.42 (Read it here.)
[My article on the apostle Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians 11:7, here.]
“. . . the woman together with her own husband is the image of God, so that that whole substance may be one image; but when she is referred separately to her quality of help-meet, which regards the woman herself alone, then she is not the image of God; but as regards the man alone, he is the image of God as fully and completely as when the woman too is joined with him in one.”
On the Trinity, 12.7.10 (Read it here.)
“Watch out that she does not twist and turn you for the worse. What difference does it make whether it is in a wife or in a mother, provided we nonetheless avoid Eve in any woman?
Letter to Laetus (Letter 243.10) (Read it here. A discussion on the letter is on page 164 here.)
A different translation of the second sentence is: “What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman.”
THOMAS AQUINAS
Doctor of the church, 13th century
“But woman is naturally of less strength and dignity than man . . .”
Summa Theologica, Volume 1, Question 92, Article 1, Objection 2. (Read it here.)
“As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence.”
Summa Theologica, Vol. I, Q. 92, Art. 1, Reply to Objection 1. (Read it here.)
MARTIN LUTHER
German priest, theologian and Protestant Reformer, 16th century
“For woman seems to be a creature somewhat different from man, in that she has dissimilar members, a varied form and a mind weaker than man. Although Eve was a most excellent and beautiful creature, like unto Adam in reference to the image of God, that is with respect to righteousness, wisdom and salvation, yet she was a woman. For as the sun is more glorious than the moon, though the moon is a most glorious body, so woman, though she was a most beautiful work of God, yet she did not equal the glory of the male creature.”
Commentary on Genesis, Chapter 2, Part V, 27b. (Read it here.)
JOHN CALVIN
French theologian, pastor, and Protestant Reformer, 1509-1564
On the first post-resurrection appearance of Jesus to women rather than to men: “I consider this was done by way of reproach, because they [the men] had been so tardy and sluggish to believe. And indeed, they deserve not only to have women for their teachers, but even oxen and asses. . . . Yet it pleased the Lord, by means of those weak and contemptible vessels, to give display of his power.”
Commentary on the Gospel of John (John 20) (Read it here.)
“On this account, all women are born that they may acknowledge themselves as inferior in consequence to the superiority of the male sex.”
Commentary on 1 Corinthians (1 Corinthians 11) (Read it here.)
“. . . there is no absurdity in the same person commanding and likewise obeying when viewed in different relations. But this does not apply to the case of woman, who by nature (that is, by the ordinary law of God) is formed to obey; for γυναικοκρατία (the government of women) has always been regarded by all wise persons as a monstrous thing; and, therefore, so to speak, it will be a mingling of heaven and earth, if women usurp the right to teach. Accordingly, he bids them be “quiet,” that is, keep within their own rank.”
A different translation of the last line is, “He therefore commands them to remain in silence; that is, to keep within their limits and the condition of their sex.”
Il commande donc qu’elles demeurent en silence; c’est a dire, qu’elles se contiennent dedans leurs limites, et la condition de leur sexe.
Commentary on Timothy, Titus and Philemon (1 Timothy 2:12) (Read it here.)
[My article 1 Timothy 2:12 in a Nutshell is here.]
“Now Moses shews that the woman was created afterwards, in order that she might be a kind of appendage to the man; and that she was joined to the man on the express condition, that she should be at hand to render obedience to him. (Genesis 2:21) Since, therefore, God did not create two chiefs of equal power, but added to the man an inferior aid, the apostle [Paul] justly reminds us of that order of creation in which the eternal and inviolable appointment of God is strikingly displayed.”
Commentary on Timothy, Titus and Philemon (1 Timothy 2:13) (Read it here.)
[My article The Significance of the Created Order, in a Nutshell, is here.]
JOHN KNOX
Scottish clergyman and Protestant Reformer, 16th century
“Woman in her greatest perfection was made to serve and obey man . . .”
The First Blast of the Trumpet Against the Monstrous Regiment of Women. (Read it here.)
“Nature I say, paints [women] further to be weak, frail, impatient, feeble and foolish: and experience has declared them to be inconstant, variable, cruel and lacking the spirit of counsel and regiment [or, leadership].”
Sorry, Alex, but exactly which "quotes" in what "other thread" are you referring to?
Like I said before, I cannot recall reading various Biblical quotes saying "women are inferior" in any recent threads.
Is it possible that you could please Post these "various quotes"?
Or, are you of the belief that simply by saying "various quotes...in...the... other thread" supports your assertions?
Alex, are you by any chance referring to the "Rule of Thumb"?
If so, then you should know that the "Rule of Thumb" is not part of any Religions Teachings, nor is any "Rule of Thumb" referenced or written in any Bible!
If you want to use that to support your weak premise, you probably should supply the evidence to support that assertion...
Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
See post 9 above..click to enlarge.
Alex
Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
I certainly do not mean this.
Read the quotes and you will see women are treated as second class.
Alex
No need, Alex...I did not realize that you were referring to the "quotes" you posted of Sexist Mysoginists trying to use their subjective interpretations of Bible verses to prove Male superiority.
You are more than welcome to continue being dis•in•gen•u•ous, Alex, just as you are Free
to cling to your Archaic Beliefs.
I see no reason to participate in any further discussions with you.
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Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
The quotes entirely support my claim but you need to read them.
Alex
Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
That's good that you now know what I am on about.
There is much more negative examples however I think just what I have posted illustrates my point...young impressionable men could be influenced by this but in any event the church should declare these messages are wrong. Further how must young girls see themselves when their figure heads say they should stay in their place and basically obey their man...its wrong..more wrong than old duffers calling each other luv or irratating kids with their oldie ways.....
Any other business if called out for such nonsense would be sacking all who said such, or at least saying we have dropped their teachings, or if nothing else quietly remove the offending stuff until there is no evidence of it.
My position in the other thread was that our culture dictates behaviour and I suggest the church standing behind this stuff can not have any positive outcome.
I can not understand why no one sees it the way I see it...their answer probably..it's common place and it's always been that way....irony can not be too far away.
Thanks again.
Alex
You are more than welcome to continue being dis•in•gen•u•ous, Alex, just as you are Free
to cling to your Archaic Beliefs.
I see no reason to participate in any further discussions with you.
to cling to your Archaic Beliefs.
I see no reason to participate in any further discussions with you.
exchemist
Valued Senior Member
What can be done is what is already being done. But unfortunately one cannot wave a magic wand and solve this quickly. Religions by their nature are built from longstanding traditions arising from ideas that were first set down many centuries ago. Various strands, of various religions, have moved faster than others to catch up with the emancipation of women in modern society. Moderate Protestant Christianity has perhaps been the most successful, for instance the Anglicans and Episcopalians, who now ordain women as bishops. There are also women rabbis in some branches of Judaism. But it will be a long haul. Progressive members of religions need to keep up the pressure.
Just wondering what you perceive from Alex’s posts in this thread, as disingenuous?
- The Biblical "quotes" that he Posted were not "quotes" from the Bible
They were "quotes" from Misogynistic, Sexist men(?) that subjectively interpreted the Bible to rationalize their "Superiority"(?) over women.
- He also Posted :
Wegs, I am NOT Religious, but I do know that the mythical "Rule of Thumb" is NOT in any Bible, nor did the "Rule of Thumb" have anything to do with beating women with a stick!
...just DuckDuckGo "Rule of Thumb"...
When I responded with that information, his response was :
- It seemed entirely disingenuous, to me at least, that Alex would ignore the fact that evidently the Religions Teaching of the Rules/Commandments DID NOT "trickle in over time" and nowadays Lying, Cheating, Stealing, Infidelity, etc runs rampant...and yet he wants to assert that the "women are inferior" Rule DID "trickle in over time"?
- Wegs, this was Posted by Alex :
Wegs, that is simply Alex asserting that "bad behaviour could be reasonably expected" because "one of the main bodies behind our culture" - The Church - "openly says over and over that women are inferior..."
That is Literally men(?) attempting to use the church to support their bad behaviour and Alex is willing to support them because that is what they were taught !!!???
I am at a loss to describe it as anything other than disingenuous because Alex refuses to acknowledge that "one of the main bodies behind our culture" - The Church - "openly says over and over " that Lying, Cheating, Stealing, Infidelity, etc are WRONG and those Religious Teachings are fairly well ignored these days...but men(?) "could be reasonably expected" to believe and behave as if "women are inferior..." because of their Religious Teachings!!!???
Wegs, I welcome any thoughts that you may have that might be able to clear up any misreading of Alex's position or assertions on my part that I may be ignorant of.
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