Revenge?

EmptyForceOfChi

Banned
Banned
is getting your own back wrong, i will give an example me and my friends earlyer today had a confrontation with some guys in a underground subway passage near our block, and they pulled out weapons and broke a bottle or 2 and came for us, we ran to our block, we were sage didnt have to do anything more and escaped danger, we cold have left it at that but we didnt, i went to my training room got my katana, he went into his apartment and got a taser and baseball bat, and i gave my other firend the metal sheath of my katana to use as a weapona nd we ran back to the subway for "revenge" but they ran (ofcourse with what we brandished/were wielding,

so no danger was done no harm caused, but we had options and revenge was the one that took place, is revenge ever justified for this type of situation?
 
Revenge is an instinctive emotional reaction to being threatened or harmed. When our distant ancestors lived in tribal groups of around 100, in which everyone knew everyone personally and almost all were blood relatives, serious conflicts among members was rare and mild. (How often do people do serious harm to family members even today?)

The next tribe down the river, well those guys were competitors for scarce resources. If they tried to encroach on our hunting grounds or the place in the woods where we gathered our herbs and berries, they were threatening our survival. Unless there had been a plague or famine that wiped out a large segment of both tribes and cooperation for the survival of the species was in order, or unless there were an unusual bounty of food so there was no threat, we had to fight them off.

Injuries would occur during the fighting. This worked against our survival because injured people might die or at least they might not be able to hunt or gather efficiently for a while. They could be permanently injured and become a burden. Our emotional instinct for revenge was well founded. We had to go over to their camp and inflict some injuries on their people, to make the point that it was not in their best interest to encroach on our space again.

Of course there are many versions of this scenario, including those in which the invasion was successful. But in almost all cases, it served our survival instinct to take revenge on those who attacked us.

In a species with language, revenge can be passed down from one generation to the next. "Remember to attack the XYZ clan every couple of years. They killed your grandpa and uncle Thogg and stole some of our food." Eventually the XYZ clan and the ABC clan simply hated each other and no member of either clan could quite remember why, but it was important to exact revenge often enough to refresh the hatred.

You see where I'm going with this, I'm sure. If you don't, then just think about the Middle East. People there are fighting each other over stuff that happened thousands of years ago. Most of them have no conscious understanding of the reasons. They're just doing what their elders have taught them for fifty or a hundred generations.

You're lucky that the other guys weren't there when you came back armed. If you're good enough that you actually got away from them when they had superior weaponry, then when you were evenly matched you might well have inflicted some physical damage on them. Do you really think it would have ended at that?

They would have told their brothers and homies, and a much larger group would have come looking for you. After they beat the crap out of you, your cousins and everybody you know would have gone looking for them. And so on. The size of the group keeps growing, and the most recent recruits don't even quite know what they're fighting for, just something to do with those other guys being really bad assholes that have to be kept in their place.

Does this sound silly? Perhaps it is but it happens every day, right here in America. Street gangs fight over stuff that happened forty years ago, stuff that nobody remembers. The feud between the Hatfields and the McCoys that's been going on for six generations may be a Bible Belt legend, but don't think for a second that there aren't feuds like that going on in the backwoods.

One of the principles of civilization is that justice is dispensed by a dispassionate central authority, not by a bunch of angry citizens who are being temporarily ruled by their feelings rather than their heads.

At the microcosmic level it may actually appear reasonable to hurt or even kill someone who has committed an atrocity like stealing your food or hitting you with a bat in a subway station. (When you get angry the adrenaline and endorphines make you stronger and stupider than normal--even a sensible member of SciForums could kill someone in anger without even meaning to.) But you have to remember that even assholes have people who love them. You are not just hurting the assholes, you're hurting their families, friends, lovers, classmates, teachers, counselors, pastors--everyone who ever tried to raise them and help them is now broken-hearted because they feel it's their own personal fault that the asshole didn't reform.

Some of those people will be so heartbroken that they might lose their sense of rationality and come looking for you. And then your friends, family, and other loved ones will be heartbroken. And some of them might lose their cool and perpetuate the feud.

Okay, perhaps every single one of those people is stronger and more sensible than you and the guy who hurt you. But still, do you want to hurt all those people?

This is the essence of my intractable opposition to capital punishment except in cases where it's the only way to prevent a repeat offense. (We wisely don't trust our justice system to keep its word on "life imprisonment without possibility of parole" and certain categories of offenders like rapists and terrorists have proven to be unreformable.) You might get some twisted satisfaction out of knowing that the person who killed your friend or father is executed. But that's not punishment. He's dead, he's not sitting there saying oh crap I really got punished that time. He's not suffering. The ones who are suffering are his wife and children and parents and boy scout leader. Only the most unrepentant Freudian would suggest that they played a significant part in the crime and deserve that degree of punishment.

Revenge is an atavistic emotion. It is something we have to overcome in order to advance civilization. Again, if you don't believe me just look at the Middle East. To call that a "civilization" is a big joke. It's just a bunch of gangs out gunning for each other because somebody's ancestor did something to somebody else's ancestor that nobody remembers accurately if at all.
 
EmptyForceOfChi said:
is getting your own back wrong, i will give an example me and my friends earlyer today had a confrontation with some guys in a underground subway passage near our block, and they pulled out weapons and broke a bottle or 2 and came for us, we ran to our block, we were sage didnt have to do anything more and escaped danger, we cold have left it at that but we didnt, i went to my training room got my katana, he went into his apartment and got a taser and baseball bat, and i gave my other firend the metal sheath of my katana to use as a weapona nd we ran back to the subway for "revenge" but they ran (ofcourse with what we brandished/were wielding,

so no danger was done no harm caused, but we had options and revenge was the one that took place, is revenge ever justified for this type of situation?

Pardon my saying so (but since you asked), revenge is a pretty stupid and petty reason for doing anything .
 
revenge may be petty but thats an opinion, i dont think people should get away with doing certain things and must be paid back eye for an eye, if there the kind of people to get drunk and try to glass someone then they deserve to be dealt with.
 
EmptyForceOfChi said:
revenge may be petty but thats an opinion, i dont think people should get away with doing certain things and must be paid back eye for an eye, if there the kind of people to get drunk and try to glass someone then they deserve to be dealt with.

That's an opinion, eh? I believe you're missing something really basic here.

An act of revenge usually calls for retaliation from the other group - which then calls for retaliation from the first group which then calls... do you get the picture?

Short but true: instead of revenge, that's what law enforcement is for. Have them deal with it.
 
first of all you must be from a nice nieghborhood, law enforcement dont do shit around here, say me and my friends couldent have got to our blocks what are we going to do, call the police while we are getting stabbed with broken bottles and small blades, and retaliation is not bad in my opinion its a way of life and nature, if you attack a wild animal it will attack you back, or if you do something to an elephant it will remember you years later and have revenge when you encounter it again in the future, but anyway isnt law enforcement revenge? dosent the judge take revenge on behalf of the person who snitched and got them in court if found guilty, and dont preach to me about the government and police enforcement, the government dont give a shit about you me or anyone else manr ealise this before you think of them as your savour, they are the most corrupt of us all, they wouldent save us if they wasnt getting money for it put it that way, the government care about CASH MONEY man not you me tom dick or harry, street justice is underated among rich suburban cultures of people who dont deal with violence and crime on a daily basis around there area of dwelling.




and haha yes it is an OPINION isnt it your opinion at this very moment? and isn my opinion opposite to the one your sticking by?


think about it more carefully please.


peace.
 
EmptyForceOfChi said:
first of all you must be from a nice nieghborhood, law enforcement dont do shit around here, say me and my friends couldent have got to our blocks what are we going to do, call the police while we are getting stabbed with broken bottles and small blades, and retaliation is not bad in my opinion its a way of life and nature, if you attack a wild animal it will attack you back, or if you do something to an elephant it will remember you years later and have revenge when you encounter it again in the future, but anyway isnt law enforcement revenge? dosent the judge take revenge on behalf of the person who snitched and got them in court if found guilty, and dont preach to me about the government and police enforcement, the government dont give a shit about you me or anyone else manr ealise this before you think of them as your savour, they are the most corrupt of us all, they wouldent save us if they wasnt getting money for it put it that way, the government care about CASH MONEY man not you me tom dick or harry, street justice is underated among rich suburban cultures of people who dont deal with violence and crime on a daily basis around there area of dwelling.




and haha yes it is an OPINION isnt it your opinion at this very moment? and isn my opinion opposite to the one your sticking by?


think about it more carefully please.


peace.

Yeah. Spoken like a young kid. And you sign that post with "peace?" Sheesh!

I know some neighboorhoods are VERY tough. But gang wars (revenge) is still the domain of kids and politicians. Keep going just like you are and you'll soon make it into an better neighboorhood, right?
 
me and my wife are saving up to move away, to have a house in Saint Lucia and place in China, and i dont start trouble niether do my friends, but lots of people are idiots and like to be violent on a daily basis, im not going to argue about this but i will say this, im not going to let people think they can physically harm me or my boys and get away with it, senseless violence is pointless, but fighting in defence is just in my opinion, if people are going around looking for fights and trouble well pardon my french but fuck them they deserve whatever they get, i mean no dissrespect to you but where im from things dont work liek you say they do.


peace
 
EmptyForceOfChi said:
me and my wife are saving up to move away, to have a house in Saint Lucia and place in China, and i dont start trouble niether do my friends, but lots of people are idiots and like to be violent on a daily basis, im not going to argue about this but i will say this, im not going to let people think they can physically harm me or my boys and get away with it, senseless violence is pointless, but fighting in defence is just in my opinion, if people are going around looking for fights and trouble well pardon my french but fuck them they deserve whatever they get, i mean no dissrespect to you but where im from things dont work liek you say they do.


peace

Well, hang on here for just a minute because you just contradicted yourself in those statements.

What you were talking about was revenge, pure and simple, and NOT fighting in defense. And when you went out to claim your revenge you were just like the first gang - going out to create a fight. To an outside observer, like me or anyone else, seeing your group in action would have been just another occasion like the first. Just another fight.

I think what you're still overlooking is the cyclic effect. It would never end until one group or the other was dead. It might be your enemies, it might be you. So what's been gained from the revenge?
 
Fear, Pride and Anger... That's a combo that leads to pain. I've felt all four.
 
yes i agree about the cycle, but hey man its either fight back and stand our home ground, or let some guys take it from us, you have to show dominance ma the weak get taken advantage of, and if you dont fight back and run every time, you will be seen as a victim and more people will hear of this and try taking your blocks, it wasnt actual self defence but it was defence of our area, if we let them or anyone get away with it,, they can think they can do it again and again and again, and then we will have to fear our own area? i would rather fight for my ground than let othe rpeople show dominance there, i probably gre up alot different from yu man, but i respect your opinions anyhow.

peace i realise the contradiction
 
Light said:
What you were talking about was revenge, pure and simple, and NOT fighting in defense.

No, I think ye're wrong in this context. Think of it like in a war and this one event is nothing more than a single battle of that war. Some battles you lose, some you win, but in the end, it's the war that's important.

In this context, he wasn't just fighting a battle of revenge, but a battle to defend his rights to walk freely and safely in his own neighborhood. I see that as "defense", NOT revenge. I see it as a single battle in the war of the rights for freedom within his own society ......NOT revenge, even tho' he called it that.

As to the "cyclic effect" of such things ...it could be said that if one does NOT defend himself from a small infraction, he's very likely to end up being involved in a much larger one. I.e., if he doesn't defend his own neighborhood for fear of the "cyclic effect", how can he even consider defending his own nation?

And even that could be seen by the liberal bleeding hearts as a form of "retaliation", couldn't it? I.e., why fight for your own country? It's just going to lead to more violence, isn't it? So just let them have anything that they want without fighting or complaining.

Baron Max
 
if everyone just allowed everyone to do what the hell they like, people would just get walked over like a doormat,

ok you believe in police right? the police cant patrol every street/block/subway/road/city/country everywhere not that they help me in any way on a personal street level, (my good friend actually got put in hospital because police beat him in the back of the police van, but he didnt press charges because he dosent believe in "snitching" (niether do i if i have to say) anyway if you justify the police "policing" the streets why cant citizens take action in there absence, the government uses force to control places, because it works, if you dont fight you lose in the long run in these situations, standing your ground is a natural thing, fight or flight, just like baron max previously stated, put it in the settings it was in, not just cold revenge of a general nature.
 
Baron Max said:
No, I think ye're wrong in this context. Think of it like in a war and this one event is nothing more than a single battle of that war. Some battles you lose, some you win, but in the end, it's the war that's important.

In this context, he wasn't just fighting a battle of revenge, but a battle to defend his rights to walk freely and safely in his own neighborhood. I see that as "defense", NOT revenge. I see it as a single battle in the war of the rights for freedom within his own society ......NOT revenge, even tho' he called it that.

As to the "cyclic effect" of such things ...it could be said that if one does NOT defend himself from a small infraction, he's very likely to end up being involved in a much larger one. I.e., if he doesn't defend his own neighborhood for fear of the "cyclic effect", how can he even consider defending his own nation?

And even that could be seen by the liberal bleeding hearts as a form of "retaliation", couldn't it? I.e., why fight for your own country? It's just going to lead to more violence, isn't it? So just let them have anything that they want without fighting or complaining.

Baron Max

Yes, Max, I understand exactly what you're saying. However, you really surprise me with part of that. I thought I had you figured to be someone who strongly supported law and order.

In my opinion this is the job of the cops. Vigilante activity went out of style (thank goodness) with the Wild West. (Of course some kids still want to be cowboys.) Don't get me wrong here, I believe things like alert citizens and watch groups work pretty well, even if it does sound corny. When they see something like that, they call the cops and may very well save some kid's life.

And yeah, I believe in the right to keep and bear arms, but allowing this to stay in the hands of street gangs isn't good. Vigilantism was never a good practice.
 
but light we arent kids, me my friends and the people we had the "situation" with were all over 21, dont you get it there is real violence in some places, ts not a kid thing its adults kids men women, in areas like mine people who call the cops on people get hurt, you obviously live and grew up in a nice area.


peace
 
EmptyForceOfChi said:
but light we arent kids, me my friends and the people we had the "situation" with were all over 21, dont you get it there is real violence in some places, ts not a kid thing its adults kids men women, in areas like mine people who call the cops on people get hurt, you obviously live and grew up in a nice area.


peace

I understand, Chi, but it's no problem to call the cops without giving a name.Nobody will ever know who did it, it could just as easily been someone from out of town that happened to see it and called it in. There's all kinds of way to get that stuff done.

Yeah, I got you about the age groups, thing is though, taking it on yourself to "fix" it is more like a kid than an adult that knows better how to handle it - just like I explained above.
 
Light said:
Yes, Max, I understand exactly what you're saying. However, you really surprise me with part of that. I thought I had you figured to be someone who strongly supported law and order.

Oh, I am a strong supporter of law and order. But I'm also a realist ...the cops simply can't be with each and every person 24 hrs a day! If someone assaults you or tries to kill you, the cops can't do anything but pick up the pieces and find the guilty party and put him on trial .....which don't help YOU one tiny bit!!!

You simply can't depend on the cops to stop every single crime. The public is and should be responsible enough to help the cops ..even if it means self-defense on the order of killing the perpetrator.

Light said:
In my opinion this is the job of the cops.

You think that there are enough cops to actually protect each and every person in the nation 24 hrs a day? And if not, then how can you call it "protection"? ....they can only pick up your bloody body and sent it to the morgue. Don't do you a lot of good, does it?

Light said:
Vigilante activity went out of style (thank goodness) with the Wild West. ... I believe things like alert citizens and watch groups work pretty well, ...

You have the wrong idea about vigilantes ...probably from the old west movies and such. Vigilantes are nothing more than what you've described above ...alert citizens and watch groups. Of course, I'd add a bit more than that to include actual apprehension of the criminal and stopping any crimes before they happen, etc.

One of the worst things to ever happen in our society is the concept that self-defense is not needed or wanted! There simply aren't enough cops to protect everyone all the time ...and when the cops aren't there, one MUST be able to protect himself. If he doesn't, he's probably going to be a victim.

Light said:
And yeah, I believe in the right to keep and bear arms, but allowing this to stay in the hands of street gangs isn't good.

If it's just street gang wars, etc, then the cops can and will put a stop to it. But they can't do it alone ...the citizens MUST be willing to come forward with help and information. If they don't, they deserve what they get!

And, by the way, please check on and think about vigilantism ....it's not what you think it is. It's bascally people defending their homes, lives and cities ...not hanging suspects from a tree! :)

Baron Max
 
The next time someone tries to assault you or rob you or kill you, tell them to wait a second while you call the police. I'm sure that the criminal will be willing to wait until the cops get there before they actually do anything to you.

'Course, if the criminal does NOT wait, at least the cops can pick up your dead, bloody body for proper burial.

Baron Max
 
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