Some Facts of Religion

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BeHereNow

Registered Senior Member
By ‘fact’, I will mean an actual state of affairs.

Some might say Reality, or Existence, or Truth.
Others might so there is no Reality, no Existence, no Truth, and thus no ‘facts’.

We will note that there is a difference between ‘facts’, and ‘statements about facts’.
Whereas ‘facts’ are truthful, statements about facts may not be. We hope they are, but no guarantee.

We use the tools and techniques of our belief system, to determine existing ‘facts’.

Towards this goal we use the tools and techniques of our belief system to see if we can show the that fact we recognize is not true, thus not a fact.
In other words, we consider that our fact may be a mistaken belief, and test it with the tools and techniques of our belief system.
If it passes, we will consider it as a fact, and we will proceed to make statements about this fact, working according to the rules of our belief system, expecting them to as true as the actual facts themselves, within the limits of human language.

So here are what I believe are some basic facts of religion.

~ ~ ~ ~
There is a god.

There is a persistence of personal identity beyond the existence of our physical bodies, and the functioning of our brain, and possibly our mind. Life after death, and perhaps before birth, such as reincarnation.

Individual human actions are accountable to god.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~

We could name others, but these are bedrocks of (most) religions.
They have been determined as ‘facts’, in that they are an actual state of affairs, as determined by those who have a belief system that includes religion.
Those who accept them will use the rules of their belief system to defend them, and those of other belief systems may disagree.
It is difficult to play football, using the rules of baseball.

We know that some statement about these facts may not be true, and it should not surprise us that statements about these facts by various religions may differ.
It is this way with evolution, and many 'scientific facts'. The actual statements about these facts sometimes differ, are mutually exclusive, but do not negate the core scientific fact of evolution.
 
I can't see there being a reality- that is, we all live in reality, right? without a God behind it.

Where'd reality come from then?
 
I'm not saying God doesn't exist, it's just not a fact. There is no empirical evidence, there is no circumstancial evidence. There is some anecdotal evidence, but it's old and cannot be verified. So what do we have? We have a belief that God exists, we have natural wonders and phenomena that are hard to explain without a God. We have a belief system that gives us rules and laws, that if we follow, we should lead a long and happy life.

Reality is a matter of perception. I'm not a psychologist, and wouldn't like to attempt to describe it. It does exist though, for whatever reason and the universe would be a very odd place without it. We also know that there is more than one reality. There is physical reality and non-physical reality (thought, reason etc). Where did it come from? I don't know, why would it have to "come from" anywhere. Why couldn't it just simply exist?
 
So here we are. There's no scientific evidence God exists, and no scientific evidence he doesn't.

So it's just a matter of what people choose to believe then.
 
BeHereNow said:
There is a god.

There is a persistence of personal identity beyond the existence of our physical bodies, and the functioning of our brain, and possibly our mind. Life after death, and perhaps before birth, such as reincarnation.

Individual human actions are accountable to god.
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Not one of these fits your declared intention:
By ‘fact’, I will mean an actual state of affairs.
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They are stated to be "the actual state of affairs" but cannot be shown to be so.
Therefore these fall under your heading of ‘statements about facts’.
For someone was careful to "note that there is a difference between ‘facts’, and ‘statements about facts’" you've missed the mark. Badly.
 
Have the God believers considered that they have only begged the question and not provided an answer, but just a further question enlarged beyond repair?

There was a need to explain the lessor thing, the cosmos, and so a much, much greater thing, God, was “just said” to be the cause and the answer. They then forgot that all the more this greater thing has to be explained, as that was their initial approach, but their initial train of reasoning switched off of the rails and halted prematurely at a word.


It’s not even that an initial Being could be a “maybe”, for a system of Mind planning and creating everything could not be the First, for it couldn’t be fundamental. Far from it. There is no way around this, for even if some ‘spirit’ form is invented out of thin air, the hierarchy of mind remains.

Complexity comes later on, much later. Science finds simpler and simpler entities beneath.


It is really that the God believers just want what they want, which is a specialness, being looked after, and having reward in an afterlife. The metronome God believers never even say ‘God is a just notion’, but ever produce a regulated aural pulse of a steady tempo, saying: ‘God Did It.’
 
ULTRA said:
I'm not saying God doesn't exist, it's just not a fact. There is no empirical evidence, there is no circumstancial evidence. There is some anecdotal evidence, but it's old and cannot be verified. So what do we have? We have a belief that God exists, we have natural wonders and phenomena that are hard to explain without a God. We have a belief system that gives us rules and laws, that if we follow, we should lead a long and happy life.

Reality is a matter of perception. I'm not a psychologist, and wouldn't like to attempt to describe it. It does exist though, for whatever reason and the universe would be a very odd place without it. We also know that there is more than one reality. There is physical reality and non-physical reality (thought, reason etc). Where did it come from? I don't know, why would it have to "come from" anywhere. Why couldn't it just simply exist?
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No- you do not understand me. If God does not exist, then where does reality come from? Nothingness? Eternal nothingness? If so, where'd the spark come from?

The fact that reality exists is all the proof I need that God exists.
 
jmpet said:
No- you do not understand me. If God does not exist, then where does reality come from? Nothingness? Eternal nothingness? If so, where'd the spark come from?

The fact that reality exists is all the proof I need that God exists.
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that is not proof. maybe for you but not really proof.. how come the universe couldnt have just be here forever.. ok so lets say the big bang created everything.. and there is a god.. where the fuck did this god get the octodecillion's of tons of matter
 
SciWriter said:
Have the God believers considered that they have only begged the question and not provided an answer, but just a further question enlarged beyond repair?

There was a need to explain the lessor thing, the cosmos, and so a much, much greater thing, God, was “just said” to be the cause and the answer. They then forgot that all the more this greater thing has to be explained, as that was their initial approach, but their initial train of reasoning switched off of the rails and halted prematurely at a word.


It’s not even that an initial Being could be a “maybe”, for a system of Mind planning and creating everything could not be the First, for it couldn’t be fundamental. Far from it. There is no way around this, for even if some ‘spirit’ form is invented out of thin air, the hierarchy of mind remains.

Complexity comes later on, much later. Science finds simpler and simpler entities beneath.


It is really that the God believers just want what they want, which is a specialness, being looked after, and having reward in an afterlife. The metronome God believers never even say ‘God is a just notion’, but ever produce a regulated aural pulse of a steady tempo, saying: ‘God Did It.’
Click to expand...
I am a Deist. no personal god, no divine revelations.

Some will say 'God did it.'
You would say, it seems, "It just did it itself."

How does your positin answer any questions, not beg the very same questions, that the god believers are left with?
I certainly do not see your position as a problem solving belief.
 
sifreak21 said:
that is not proof. maybe for you but not really proof.. how come the universe couldnt have just be here forever.. ok so lets say the big bang created everything.. and there is a god.. where the fuck did this god get the octodecillion's of tons of matter
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The only difference between you and 'jmpet', is that you disagree with him.

You need to show that God is NOT the original cause, in order to state a real case.

jan.
 
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