The ALF... Villians or Heroes

There are 3basic questions in any conflict to find out who the good guy or bad guy is:

1. Are they using violence?
2. Are they promoting war and violence?
3. Do they promote ignorance and stand against knowledge?
4. Are they harming the environment and its inhabitants or are they doing nothing to protect it?

Any that fit these categories are the bad guy.
 
Anyone can "justify" anything if they set their minds to it.

The question should be, "Can they "justify" their actions to you?"

I think one of the major problems in the world is that there's too fuckin' many people trying to tell too many other people what to do and what not to do.

Perhaps it's time for us all to .....mind our own fuckin' business?

Baron Max
 
I think it was the ALF or some affiliate that broke into a mink farm in the UK back in the 80's and set the minks free into the wilds. The minks then proceeded to hunt down and eat as much of the local native fauna as they could. It was an ecological disaster that wound up with the minks being hunted, trapped, and caught in lethal traps and returned to the farm where they were skinned and made into coats. What few they couldn't catch were most likely eaten by dogs.

I guess their hearts were in the right place.
 
lixluke:
1. Are they using violence?
2. Are they promoting war and violence?
3. Do they promote ignorance and stand against knowledge?
4. Are they harming the environment and its inhabitants or are they doing nothing to protect it?
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1. No.
2. No.
3. No.
4. No.
 
I didn't bother accessing the video.

If the ALF the "Animal Liberation Front"?

Are the ALF justified in using what many deem to be 'non-violent terrorism' to stop what they believe to be mass murder? Are they heroes, or villians?
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Please give some specific examples, and we can look at them one by one.
 
The ALF are like an enforcement arm for PETA. They are involved in things like burning research laboratories and I suspect that they have also set a few animal care facilities on fire with the animals in them.

People must have a deep seated anger against some industries because I think that they are willfully blind to what ALF does, how much damage it does, and even the damage that it does to animals by setting animals free and working to get laws passed that cause many animals to be killed.
 
I am fine with protestors and other such things, but once they assault property they have crossed the line.
 
"I'm fine with people protesting our rounding up and gassing of the Jews, but when they damage the gas chambers, they have crossed the line!"

James:
If the ALF the "Animal Liberation Front"?
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Yes.

Please give some specific examples, and we can look at them one by one.
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I'll give some general examples, instead. In the fight for animal rights, are the ALF justified in...

1. Protesting?

2. Vandalizing property used to harm/kill animals?

3. Rescuing animals from fur farms/meat factories/vivisection labs? Assume that the animals are donated to a no-kill animal shelter.
 
In the fight for animal rights, are the ALF justified in...

1. Protesting?
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Yes. That's their legal right.

2. Vandalizing property used to harm/kill animals?
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Ethically, this may be justifiable in certain circumstances. It is, however, illegal.

3. Rescuing animals from fur farms/meat factories/vivisection labs?
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Again, ethically this may be permissible. It is also illegal.
 
But you haven't really answered the question, James. Do you think that the ALF are heroes, or villians? Since they carry out ethical and noble actions (often at risk to their own liberty), are they heroes? Or do their illegal activities make them villians?
 
I've never really understood what the basis is for "animal rights".

It does seem ironic, however, that the same people who say "If the Iraqi people want freedom they should step up and do it themselves", while at the same time "We have to fight for a bunch of weasles to be free from their human oppressors."
 
ethical and noble actions
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?

This calls to mind another news story about the ALF from the 80's. They had broken into a lab and rescued the rabbits that were being experimented on. (yay!) They took these rabbits and gave them to people as cuddly little pets to be loved and cared for. (yay!) Most of the rabbits had been intentionally infected with dangerous bacteria that might or might not have transferred to the people they gave the rabbits to. (oops!) Nobly intended maybe.

Ethics are a matter of debate as one person's ethics might not match those of another. We have some great life-saving medications due to animal experimentation. (Explain to the parents of a dying child that a rabbit's life is worth more than their daughter's. If they agree, I'll shut up.) But to spray cosmetics into an animal's eyes to see if it causes a reaction? Hel-LO-o! We pretty much know that just about everything sprayed into your eyes can be bad, and by now it should be common knowledge to flush with water and get to a doctor. I don't think we need any further experimentation in that direction. I was sickened by scientists who cut off a cat's balls to see if their conclusion was right that it produced a "pain-like reaction".

But I don't see the ALF as heroes nor necessarily as villains. They are from the same general cut of people who would not want me to own my dogs, cats, or fish because owning an animal puts them in an unnatural setting. They would bar spaying and neutering and let these creatures overpopulate, all the while complaining that people are overpopulating. They would enforce veganism on all of us until they came up with some reason not to eat plants, either. Such unethical treatment of human beings has to carry some weight, as people are only mammals in the animal kingdom and should be included in the "ethical treatment of animals". So I don't see the ALF as heroes or villains. I'm not sure how I see them. (If you saw the "Bullshit!" episode on PETA, you probably wouldn't like them much.)

When was the ALF formed? I'd like to think that the rabbit and mink incidents were mistakes of a fledgling and idealistic organization and that they've gotten smarter and more sophisticated.
 
Oxygen said:
They had broken into a lab and rescued the rabbits that were being experimented on. (yay!)
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Would you rather the lab preform the tests on humans?

We pretty much know that just about everything sprayed into your eyes can be bad, and by now it should be common knowledge to flush with water and get to a doctor.
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Tell this to the dumb ass teenager who sues Loreal because she gets Mascara in her eyes and makes her go blind. The fact is, there are certain things that you cannot know unless you check it.

Such unethical treatment of human beings has to carry some weight, as people are only mammals in the animal kingdom and should be included in the "ethical treatment of animals".
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I think I agree with you about this. Humans are naturally omnivores, and one can argue that the reason we have large brains is because our diets are so high in protein---in general, predators are more intelligent than prey in Nature, so bring on the steaks.
 
MetaKron said:
The ALF are like an enforcement arm for PETA. They are involved in things like burning research laboratories and I suspect that they have also set a few animal care facilities on fire with the animals in them.
.
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Really? Burning animal care facilities, such as?
 
mountainhare said:
But you haven't really answered the question, James. Do you think that the ALF are heroes, or villians? Since they carry out ethical and noble actions (often at risk to their own liberty), are they heroes? Or do their illegal activities make them villians?
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Neither, they are in their own words freedom fighters.
 
BenTheMan said:
I've never really understood what the basis is for "animal rights".

It does seem ironic, however, that the same people who say "If the Iraqi people want freedom they should step up and do it themselves", while at the same time "We have to fight for a bunch of weasles to be free from their human oppressors."
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There's no irony there. The fact is if weasels are being opressed by humans then they are not capable of fighting for themselves.
 
BenTheMan said:
Would you rather the lab preform the tests on humans?

Tell this to the dumb ass teenager who sues Loreal because she gets Mascara in her eyes and makes her go blind. The fact is, there are certain things that you cannot know unless you check it.

I think I agree with you about this. Humans are naturally omnivores, and one can argue that the reason we have large brains is because our diets are so high in protein---in general, predators are more intelligent than prey in Nature, so bring on the steaks.
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What would your objection be to testing on human volunteers? Now apply this to animals that did not volunteer.

LOL! Hunting live prey requires a high level of intelligence, purchasing a cheeseburger does not. ;)
 
There's no irony there. The fact is if weasels are being opressed by humans then they are not capable of fighting for themselves.
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And you think that Iraqis were capable of standing up to an oppressive regime?

What would your objection be to testing on human volunteers? Now apply this to animals that did not volunteer.
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The difference in our opinions, which will never be resolved, is that I think human life is inherintly more valuable than another animal's life. We can talk in circles if you like:)

LOL! Hunting live prey requires a high level of intelligence, purchasing a cheeseburger does not
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This is certainly true, and can say so after having killed and eaten many animals myself. Venison has less fat than chicken, and tastes better too. Nevertheless, it is beside the point: The fact is that humans natural diet includes other animals. Any attempt to deny this is to disregard the facts.
 
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