The Broad Brush? Women and Men; Prejudice and Necessity

[Asguard]

Bells that is horrible and I hope you get the justice you deserve and it's sad your sister in law blames you. That happens far to often

As for why men get defensive I would just like to post 2 articles which have been in the news recently

http://m.smh.com.au/travel/travel-i...ves-virgin-to-think-again-20120810-23y7q.html

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-...fear-career-in-schools-sex-abu/5449396?pfm=ms

 

[Tiassa]

Mod Hat — Splinter Notice

Mod Hat — Splinter notice

This thread is a splinter drawn from "Misogyny, Guns, Rape and Culture" in response to member request with which the moderator concurs.

Thank you.

 

[Tiassa]

An Analysis

As for why men get defensive I would just like to post 2 articles which have been in the news recently

Where that falls apart, though, is in the psychoanalysis. That is to say, there is an element of reaping what we've sewn, here, and perhaps that isn't fair to the current or next generations who so desperately want to remind that it's Not All Men.

But look at the Meagher slaying. I can find you a jury in Florida that will acquit because of what a woman was wearing. And we've heard plenty about Ken Buck, the Colorado congressional candidate who wouldn't prosecute a confessed rape because the woman deserved it. And Dick Black, a Republican state-legislative carpetbagger in Virginia who thinks a man can't rape his wife; he was also a military prosecutor, and argues that rape in the military is just part of nature. And then there's the guy in West Virginia (electoral fate unclear until I look it up) who touts his domestic violence conviction as an asset.

Regardless of whatever Not-All Man reminds us, the functional reality for women is pretty much what you see in that Bors cartoon. And here's the thing about the woman in that four-framer: If he does rape her, or she gets jumped on the way to the pub, there will most assuredly be someone willing to wonder what she did to deserve it, or why she didn't take more precautions. And the local police department will put out a reminder to women that they're wearing the wrong hair, the wrong shoes, and really shouldn't be using their celphones in public because, well, they're women.

This is the world we've made. Not necessarily you and me specifically, but men in general. This is our ownership culture; our daughters who have been raised, for generations, that this is just the way it is. And I couldn't tell you what this or that man might have done wrong that resulted in a false claim of sexual abuse, but around here nature abhors a vacuum, and as a result we are reminded that women, too, are capable of abusing children.

And the airplane thing? Look, man, we only really innovate policy in the United States under the demands of crisis. On our side of the Big Water, a lot of those creepy policies were instituted in response to public demand.

And, frankly, one of the biggest disruptions keeping this part of our public discourse so volatile is the Leage of Not All Men. There comes a point where a person's fear of potentially being accused of sexual impropriety is their own damn problem. I've seen people generate a false accusation before; they had no idea what they were dealing with, though it was pretty freaking apparent, right off the bat, that we were dealing with a problematic accusation. The child had to be prompted to recite the story, and could not add any relevant details on her own. Her mother, of course, had neurotic investment in not getting too angry at her father for creating this circumstance around his granddaughter, but we are lucky; the sheriff's investigation and interviews turned up nothing, and the psychologist was able to affirmatively assert that there was no event. And, yes, this was obvious. But we went through the process anyway, because that is our duty. And the person who generated this false accusation? Well, it's not like they're going to throw an old man in jail for making a young girl tell people she has been sexually abused.

The process worked, of a sort. My daughter has zero memory of the process, at least that she's willing to acknowledge, and I don't see her ego defense screens on that issue, so ... yeah. But the old man and his ownership attitudes are what created both the need for his fears, and the accusation that made him think his fears were coming true. And for us that the analog is simply that this is the world we've made. Female humans are assessed according to sexually neurotic criteria; they have for generations grown and developed in that specifically assigned context. And often, that's the reason why some of the elements you bring to these discussions are brushed aside.

This is what we have taught our sons about how to see the world; this is what we have taught our daughters about how to see the sons.

And, yes, it does somewhat suck for the League of Not All Men in that context. But that really is a lower priority, not just politically but objectively in the context of a functional, healthy society.

 

[Bells]

I think one of the worst aspects of the 'not all men' debate is that it distracts from the issues that women face. Women report that they have or do suffer from sexual harassment, rape and the response is always, 'not all men'. We see it here on this site as well. If a person dares say male rapists, one will inevitably respond with 'not all men'. No shit Sherlock, we know not all men rape. It is overly defensive and unnecessary.

No one is saying 'all men rape' when women or society discusses male misogyny. We know 'not all men' do this. What we are talking about are the men who do act this way. Jumping in with "not all men!!" simply distracts and detracts from the experiences women face. Immediately, these women become the abusers for insinuating that 'all men' are rapists or abusers and the men immediately become the victim. Then, as sure as night is day, you'll get one or two who come out and say it's not about power, but about sex, or the 'well he just wants to have sex with a woman he would not normally get to sleep with', which further diminishes the experiences of the female victims.

And it's a stupid cycle that men today should be adult enough to recognise that we aren't talking about them but about the men who harass, abuse, rape and launch misogynistic attacks and comments at women.

When you see the hash tag #YesAllWomen, or comments from women that they suffer or have suffered from misogyny, it does not automatically mean "YesAllMen" are rapists or abusers or misogynistic.

 

[Trooper]

Susannah Breslin, a Forbes contributor wrote "Feminism claims to be about empowerment. In fact, over the years, it has increasingly devoted itself to promoting the image of women as victims. Victims of men. Victims of pop culture. Victims of sexism. Victims of discrimination. Victims of other women."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/susannahbreslin/2011/08/11/how-feminism-became-a-joke/

 

[Asguard]

If there was no reason to get defensive then the offenders gender wouldn't even be mentioned any more than skin colour is. As both those articles show that ALL men ARE being affected by the assumption that all men are abusers. The stupidity of the plane incident is that a teacher (who had gone through all the child protection requirements to be a teacher) was treated as a potential sex offender and forced to move so that a women with NO child protection checks was sitting next to the child. Even the sex discrimation commissioner came out saying this policy breaches the sex discrimation laws

And if men are being forced away from teaching for the assumption that they are abusers then again there is a REASON why people are defensive

Even the whole anti domestic violence campaign was written in such a way as to be sexually discriminatory "violence against women". So what about violence committed by women? What about violence in same sex relationships? If you want to run an anti domestic violence campaign that's great, but the assumption that it's always men who are responsible or that that section of violence is the only violence which matters is what leads to the defensive attitude

The irony is that the single worst example of domestic violence in Australia was accuatually committed by a women, who stabbed her husband to death and then cooked him and tried to feed him to his children

 

[Bells]

If there was no reason to get defensive then the offenders gender wouldn't even be mentioned any more than skin colour is. As both those articles show that ALL men ARE being affected by the assumption that all men are abusers. The stupidity of the plane incident is that a teacher (who had gone through all the child protection requirements to be a teacher) was treated as a potential sex offender and forced to move so that a women with NO child protection checks was sitting next to the child. Even the sex discrimation commissioner came out saying this policy breaches the sex discrimation laws

And if men are being forced away from teaching for the assumption that they are abusers then again there is a REASON why people are defensive

Even the whole anti domestic violence campaign was written in such a way as to be sexually discriminatory "violence against women". So what about violence committed by women? What about violence in same sex relationships? If you want to run an anti domestic violence campaign that's great, but the assumption that it's always men who are responsible or that that section of violence is the only violence which matters is what leads to the defensive attitude

The irony is that the single worst example of domestic violence in Australia was accuatually committed by a women, who stabbed her husband to death and then cooked him and tried to feed him to his children

No one is saying that men are the only ones responsible. What I was saying and which somehow or other ended up in this thread, is that when a woman describes her experiences, the response should not be 'not all men'. We know not all men do this. I find that automatic defensive response to be overly distracting. It instantly puts the victim recounting her experiences into the aggressor category.. the victim who is picking on 'all men'. Your comment and this thread, to be honest, is a prime example.

And frankly, I find your using the 'single worst example of domestic violence' to be bizarre in the extreme. This is your defense to misogyny towards women? Finger pointing and declaring her crime to be the absolute worst? *Gasp* worst case was committed by a woman! *Gasp* What? Do you think a guy who stabs his kids and his father in law as a revenge attack against his ex wife did not commit a similarly heinous crime? What about the guy who drove his 3 sons into a dam and let them drown before he went to his ex wife's house to tell her he had an "accident" and then casually smoked a cigarette as her current husband desperately dove into the dam repeatedly trying to find them, is not as bad? What about the ones who stalk, harass, beat daily, threaten and then ultimately murder their spouses? Or is it the attempting to feed him to his children that makes this the absolute "worst"? Where would beating a little boy to death with a cricket bat in front of his horrified mother fall into the spectrum of "worst" here? What about Catherine Smith, whom police labeled as being the survivor of one of the worst and most horrific and prolific abuse for over 20 years?

Here are some statistics for New South Wales, which are probably a good representation of the National average:

In NSW in the 12 months to September 2012, around three-quarters of female homicide victims (27 out of 35) were killed by someone with whom they were in a domestic relationship. This compares to one-fifth of male homicide victims (11 out of 57).

---

Of females who were killed in a domestic violence context between 2000 and 2009, 79 percent were killed by their intimate partner and 21 percent were killed by a relative/kin. For males, comparative figures were 32 percent and 49 percent respectively.

---

During the period from October 2009 to September 2012, attempted murder of females was more likely to occur in a domestic violence context than for males. In this period, almost three-quarters of incidents of attempted murder of women occurred in a DV context (28 out of 38 incidents), compared to almost one-fifth for men (19 out of 108 incidents).
​

No one is saying that men are not and cannot be victims of abuse.

What I am saying is that using this as a response to all women facing some form (within the spectrum) of harassment to violence to rape is not going to help matters much. And that is the part you are missing out here. All women will face some form of harassment (at the very least) because of her sex. And that is at the very least. And the worst? Well, we all know what happens there.

According to the National Violence Against Women Survey, 1 in 6 U.S. women and 1 in 33 U.S. men has experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime.​

I get it, women are also abusers. But that should never be used as the defense for when women explain and list what they have experienced.

 

[Asguard]

Firstly reason I said it's the worst is because that's what the cops involved said when interviewed. On a more objective scale even if it's not THE worst it's certainly amongst the worst, after all how many cases get the offender "Never to be released"?

Secondly who's excusing the crime? What I'm saying is that it's no wonder that men act defensivily when society, specifically the media and our pollies act like all men are potential abusers. I think it's sad that instead of being able to empathise with a victim the first thought is "you don't think I'm like that do you?". It's a sad state of affairs but that's the society we have built

Lastly I find your use of the word "excuse" interesting. An excuse is something a responsible party used to mitigate responsibility. It maybe an irrelivent comment or an annoying statement but to label it an excuse is to say there is something to excuse, that all men are somehow responsible for the actions of 1 person and that makes no more sense than to say that all South Australians are responsible for Rodney Clavell or all Victorians are responsible for Jullian Knight.

 

[Bells]

Firstly reason I said it's the worst is because that's what the cops involved said when interviewed. On a more objective scale even if it's not THE worst it's certainly amongst the worst, after all how many cases get the offender "Never to be released"?

Secondly who's excusing the crime? What I'm saying is that it's no wonder that men act defensivily when society, specifically the media and our pollies act like all men are potential abusers. I think it's sad that instead of being able to empathise with a victim the first thought is "you don't think I'm like that do you?". It's a sad state of affairs but that's the society we have built

Lastly I find your use of the word "excuse" interesting. An excuse is something a responsible party used to mitigate responsibility. It maybe an irrelivent comment or an annoying statement but to label it an excuse is to say there is something to excuse, that all men are somehow responsible for the actions of 1 person and that makes no more sense than to say that all South Australians are responsible for Rodney Clavell or all Victorians are responsible for Jullian Knight.

You still don't get it, do you?

You are the #NotAllMen that I was talking about. Your first and initial response to hearing about rape and abuse is to complain about those you deem to be the true victims.. men.

And then, to make sure to drive that point home, you gleefully remind us that a woman committed a horrific crime.

In other words, you don't quite understand what the #AllWomen was about.

In the other thread, I pointed out something that you clearly missed. Men do not see misogyny. Look at the case of Rodger, who posted numerous videos and wrote posts about hating women and wanting to harm and kill them because the were sluts, whores, bitches and all the other names he called them. His mother saw the misogyny and the dangers and called the police. So did his father. The male police officers who interviewed him saw none of it. They saw a polite young man. It's not that men rarely see it. It's that they overlook it because it is normal. Or more to the point, it isn't abnormal. And the media is full of it. It is full of the normalcy of hating women who won't sleep with you. It is deemed to be normal. The Rodger killing spree was a perfect example. Instead of focusing on his misogyny, they focused on the girl who rejected him when she was 10 years of age.. They then posted the photos of the pretty young model as she is today, the reminder that she rejected the guy who then went on to want to murder every young woman he saw.. So much so that he tried to get into a sorority house to kill as many as he could..

When people like you keep complaining that #NotAllMen do this, it just reaffirms what you clearly cannot see. Women live their lives by constantly hoping #NotAllMen.

When we walk down the street, we have to believe that the man whose catcall we ignore will not be like the Indianapolis man who chased after three teenage girls in his car and shot out their windows after they “fled his unwanted attention” at a gas station, or else we’d simply never leave the house ever again. We need to believe that if we break up with our boyfriend, he will not track us down and kill us. We need to believe that if we call the police to get a threatening man out of our house, they will not arrest us instead, throw us in jail for the crime of self-defense.

We need to believe this so hard that we delude ourselves into blaming other women for what they face. Because of course “not all men” is not only said by men. It is said by women who say they aren’t feminists because they don’t hate men; it is said by women who consider themselves feminists but think of other women as “too strident.” It was said to me by commenters when I wrote a piece about the repeated encounters I had with angry, shouting, threatening men when I accepted public speaking engagements. It’s not the men, they say—it’s you.

I understand that response, of course. It is necessary to function, this ability to convince ourselves that we have nothing to fear. And yet that response too tells us to shrink ourselves, that we must be nicer, that we must not speak up too loudly, that we must not criticize men, because after all, it’s not all men.​

Remind me of the times where you walked down the street at night with your keys spread between your fingers in case the guy who just walked past you and leaned into your face and licked his lips is not going to turn around and come after you? Remind me of the time you went to a bar with your friends and some guy cornered you off from them on your way back from the bathroom and sexually harassed you, commented on your breasts, your mouth and your lips while asking for your number? No? Nothing?

These were my first experiences before I was 18. It only got worse after that.

You don't need to remind us that #NotAllMen, Asguard. Women tell themselves that 24/7 in the verdant hope that it is true.

 

[Balerion]

You still don't get it, do you?

He gets it, and that seems to be your main complaint.

Because he won't let you speak carelessly, demonizing all men in the process, he has you figured out. Your man-hating bullshit doesn't cut the mustard, so now you begin wiht the character assassinations. You're just another bigot who's mad they can't spread their hatespeech unchecked. Too bad for you, I guess.

 

[Asguard]

Bells the point is what do you want? Do you want to relate a horrific experience you had? Ok sorry that happened to you and hope the justice system gives you the justice you deserve. But that's as far as my responsibility goes, fact it was another man who did it and I happen to be a man is a coincidence. Fact that you and "all women" have to remind yourself that "not all men" do it shows that on some level you do think "all men" do and you have to congnativily over rule that. Put it this way. If he was a brunette do you have to remind yourself 24/7 and hope that "not all brunettes are like that"?

 

[Bells]

He gets it, and that seems to be your main complaint.

Because he won't let you speak carelessly, demonizing all men in the process, he has you figured out. Your man-hating bullshit doesn't cut the mustard, so now you begin wiht the character assassinations. You're just another bigot who's mad they can't spread their hatespeech unchecked. Too bad for you, I guess.

Ah look.. It's misogyny on legs..

What hate speech, Balerion?

Do you think it's hate speech when women describe their experiences?

Do you think it's hate speech for me to describe my rape? Was it "man hating bullshit"?

“Hi. Elliot Rodger here. Well, this is my last video. It all has to come to this.

Tomorrow is the day of retribution, the day in which I will have my retribution against humanity, against all of you.

For the last eight years of my life, ever since I hit puberty I have been forced to endure an existence of loneliness and unfulfilled desires all because girls have never been attracted to me. Girls gave their affection and sex and love to other men but never to me.

I am 22 years old and still a virgin. I have never even been kissed by a girl.

I have been through college for two and a half years, more than that, and I am still a virgin. It has been very torturous.

College is the time when everyone experiences those things such as sex and fun and pleasure, but in those years I have had to rot in loneliness. It’s not fair.

You girls have never been attracted to me. I don’t know why you girls aren’t attracted to me, but I will punish you all for it.

It is an injustice, a crime, because I don’t know what you don’t see in me.

I am the perfect guy, but yet, you throw yourselves at all these obnoxious men, instead of me the supreme gentleman.

I will punish all of you for it [points at the screen then laughs].

On the day of retribution, I am going to enter the hottest sorority house on UCSB [University of California, Santa Barbara] and I will slaughter every single spoiled, stuck-up blonde s*** I see inside there.

All those girls that I have desired so much, they would have all rejected me and looked at me as an inferior man if I ever made a sexual advance towards them.

While they throw themselves at these obnoxious brutes, I will take great pleasure in slaughtering all of you.

You will finally see that I am in truth the superior one, the true alpha male [laughs].

Yes, after I have annihilated every single girl in the sorority house, I will take to the streets of Isla Vista and slay every single person I see there.

All those popular kids who live such lives of hedonistic pleasure while I have had to rot in loneliness for all of these years, they have all looked down upon me every time I have tried to go out and join them.

They have all treated me like a mouse, but now, I will be a God compared to you.

We will all be animals, you are animals and I will slaughter you like animals.

I will be a God, exacting my retribution on all those who deserve it, and you do deserve it just for the crime of living better life than me. All you popular kids you have never accepted me and now you will pay for it.

Girls, all I have ever wanted was to love you and to be loved by you. I wanted a girlfriend, I’ve wanted sex, love, adoration, but you think I am unworthy of it. That’s a crime that can never be forgiven. If I can’t have you, girls, I will destroy you [laughs].

You’ve denied me a happy life and in turn I will deny all of you life. It is only fair.

I hate all of you, humanity is a disgusting retched, depraved species. If I had it in my power I would stop at nothing to reduce every single one of you to mountains of skulls and rivers of blood and rightfully so. You deserve to be annihilated, and I will give that to you. You never showed me any mercy, so I will show you none [laughs].

You forced me to suffer all my life and now I will make you all suffer. I have waited a long time for this, I will give you exactly what you deserve, all of you all you girls who rejected me and looked down on me, treated me like scum while you gave yourselves to other men. and all of you men for living a better life than me.

All of you sexually active men, I hate you, I hate all of you. I can’t wait to give you exactly what you deserve, utter annihilation [laughs].”​

Transcript of Elliot Rodger's video before he went on his killing spree..

Prior to that, he was posting other stuff on men's rights sites:

A survey of his subscribed channels reveals the 22-year-old was a Men’s Rights Activist, or MRA. This branch of the men’s liberation movement focuses on what it considers to be issues of male discrimination and oppression.

He regularly posted to online forums and late last year made a call to arms against women: “Start envisioning a world where WOMEN FEAR YOU.”​

And other videos posting the same messages..

And the police officers saw nothing wrong with it, thought he was polite and balanced. In other words, they could not see what was clear because this was normal and nothing that would have raised concern.

You are the very epitome of why women post #AllWomen, Balerion.

Because you see any woman who dares to voice her concern and her experience as being a man hater.

Let me guess, you're going to whine that discussing this is more "man hating bullshit"..? This is why I did not see the need for Tiassa to give Asguard this thread instead of leaving those posts in the other thread. Because this is the very issue and heart of what the OP in the other thread was trying to discuss. You should tank Tiassa. He gave you a platform to call a rape victim who wanted to discuss misogyny in society and how it is so often overlooked, the ability and safety to refer to my experiences and comments as "man hating bullshit". So good job.

No, really.. Great job. You just made my point for me. Thank you.

 

[Balerion]

Ah look.. It's misogyny on legs..

Case in point. The racist, man-hating troll is reduced to insubstantial attacks on my ccharacter, because there's nothing she can actually say to refute the argument at hand.

What hate speech, Balerion?

Should I quote your rants about evil white people? How about you putting every non-rapist male on their back foot when you condemn men as a whole for the actions of the few, or your framing of sexual and domestic assault as exclusively male?

Do you think it's hate speech for me to describe my rape? Was it "man hating bullshit"?

No, you simply leverage that to score points in conversation, like you have here. The fact is, I don't care about you. I have no opinion on your experiences. You've demonstrated zero human compassion on this forum, so I find it laughable that you expect any in return.

Prior to that, he was posting other stuff on men's rights sites:

Is there a point to posting that, Bells? Is this a not-so-subtle suggestion that all men who hate bigots like you are somehow akin to that psycho?

Irony. You don't even realize that you're proving my point. Or maybe you do, and just hope nobody notices.

You are the very epitome of why women post #AllWomen, Balerion.

No, I'm not. I'm simply a pain in your ass because I, among others, don't let you get away with your bigoted horseshit. We call you on it, which clearly makes you uncomfortable. Again, too bad for you.

Because you see any woman who dares to voice her concern and her experience as being a man hater.

No, I see you, specificially, as a man-hater, because you openly hate men. (Among other groups, including whites) And you resort to character assassination when you're called on it. Classic troll bullshit, but you're only making yourself look stupid.

Let me guess, you're going to whine that discussing this is more "man hating bullshit"..? This is why I did not see the need for Tiassa to give Asguard this thread instead of leaving those posts in the other thread. Because this is the very issue and heart of what the OP in the other thread was trying to discuss. You should tank Tiassa. He gave you a platform to call a rape victim who wanted to discuss misogyny in society and how it is so often overlooked, the ability and safety to refer to my experiences and comments as "man hating bullshit". So good job.

No, really.. Great job. You just made my point for me. Thank you.

Your point is "All men are evil rapists." Asguard checked you on that, and now you're throwing a tantrum, and attempting to use your rape as a hammer against anyone who disagrees with you. Shame on you.

 

[pjdude1219]

He gets it, and that seems to be your main complaint.

Because he won't let you speak carelessly, demonizing all men in the process, he has you figured out. Your man-hating bullshit doesn't cut the mustard, so now you begin wiht the character assassinations. You're just another bigot who's mad they can't spread their hatespeech unchecked. Too bad for you, I guess.

what is your defect? at no point was bells attacking all men. are you really so fucked in the head to actually try and tell a fucking rape victim that as male whose never been raped that your the real victim of rape. you need to see a therapist dude. seriously thanks for making all guys look bad.

 

[pjdude1219]

Bells the point is what do you want? Do you want to relate a horrific experience you had? Ok sorry that happened to you and hope the justice system gives you the justice you deserve. But that's as far as my responsibility goes, fact it was another man who did it and I happen to be a man is a coincidence. Fact that you and "all women" have to remind yourself that "not all men" do it shows that on some level you do think "all men" do and you have to congnativily over rule that. Put it this way. If he was a brunette do you have to remind yourself 24/7 and hope that "not all brunettes are like that"?

you've never been abused have you? do not attack the abused for trying to protect them selves.

 

[Bells]

Bells the point is what do you want? Do you want to relate a horrific experience you had? Ok sorry that happened to you and hope the justice system gives you the justice you deserve. But that's as far as my responsibility goes, fact it was another man who did it and I happen to be a man is a coincidence. Fact that you and "all women" have to remind yourself that "not all men" do it shows that on some level you do think "all men" do and you have to congnativily over rule that. Put it this way. If he was a brunette do you have to remind yourself 24/7 and hope that "not all brunettes are like that"?

Oh poor you. You are so victimised.

No, really. You are.

What you don't get and still don't get is that instead of talking to other men to say, 'hey, this isn't okay', you overlook it. When you see a guy catcall a woman about her boobs or her backside down the street, have you ever said 'hey, that's not okay!'? Or do you just ignore it and say nothing?

You don't need to tell us #NotAllMen Asguard. Because if we believed that, then we would never leave our homes, never have sex with you, never be in your company, never speak to you. Society would be segregated. Completely and entirely.

Do you know why women wonder or see a threat in guys they don't know?

Because for generation after generation, it has been ingrained into us. From when women were owned like chattels, to today, when women are taught by their father's to not trust men, to groups who have daughter's giving their virginity to their father's for safekeeping and taking weird and dodgy photos to commemorate the occasion, to various legal bodies, politicians, the media remind us of our place and reminding us that if we dress a certain way, then we ask for it - a few days a go a judge told a 14 year old rape victim that she was older than her years.. There is NOTHING being told to boys and men that this is not okay.

Instead, men who go on rants about hating women and wanting them all dead and who posts about how women must fear men and be dominated and owned by men, are seen as being normal and polite and nothing wrong with him..

We hope that the guy who leers into our breasts in a lift is not going to rape us because we know that no one had told this guy that what he was doing was not acceptable. That this is not how he should behave. Just as if a guy goes on a rant about a woman on an internet forum and calls her a bitch, a cunt, a whore and a slut because she dared to disagree with him, no one is going to point out the very misogyny of his words..

But before you let me off the hook, I have to confess: I was violent. I never physically hurt anyone, much less anyone female, but I emotionally abused every woman who rejected me. In high school, I called Cynthia a disgusting whore after seeing her snuggle with her boyfriend on a field trip. In college, I showed up drunk at another woman’s door the night after she ended our two-week relationship, pounding and screaming until she threatened to call the cops. After graduation, when an evening of drinking ended with my office crush going home with a random guy, I shouted, "My life would be better if that bitch were dead!" in front of my co-workers. Management was terrified; when they fired me the next day, they drove me 10 miles to a psychiatrist's office in fear of a potential office rampage.

Things are much better now. I live with a wonderful girlfriend, and work at a job I enjoy. Age and antidepressants have mellowed me, and a healthier diet and regular exercise have imbued me with greater self-confidence. But as Paul Schrader—who created Travis Bickle, the ultimate lonely psychopath—once said, “You never outrun your childhood.”

So while my anger and misogyny have subsided, they’ve never completely gone away. Over the past 15 years, I’ve gone through romantic breakups that included hideous words and actions, and I’ve argued with female co-workers in ways I never would with men. Just a few months ago, I got into a screaming match with my father’s wife in which I called her atrocious names.
​

Recognise the threat of violence, but not the misogyny that drives it.

I remember once, in the rape thread, how one guy was so shocked and surprised when I said that the best rape prevention is to teach our sons and daughters that rape is not acceptable, instead of placing the onus on the woman to not be raped. He thought it was a ridiculous idea.

You don't acknowledge the misogyny, Asguard. Because from where I am sitting, you see the misogyny as a defense to your victimisation.. A necessary defense against women who may wrong you. So when the police officers responded to the calls by Rodger's parents about his misogyny, they did not see it. All they saw was a polite young man.

And that's the problem.

 

[Bells]

Case in point. The racist, man-hating troll is reduced to insubstantial attacks on my ccharacter, because there's nothing she can actually say to refute the argument at hand.

I am not even going to bother pointing out the hypocritical irony of that line..

Should I quote your rants about evil white people? How about you putting every non-rapist male on their back foot when you condemn men as a whole for the actions of the few, or your framing of sexual and domestic assault as exclusively male?

You don't need to. As I have often tried to explain history to you, it's clear that you choose to remain ignorant of it. Are you still uncomfortable with white ownership and the deliberate denial of rights and a voice to anyone who was not white (and for the most part, not male) in history? Why are you so defensive when anyone ever brings it up?

I'd like you to show me exactly where I have condemned all men for the actions of the many. That's right Balerion, the many. Since over 65% of women are sexually harassed in the street, it's not the few who are doing it. But the many.

No, you simply leverage that to score points in conversation, like you have here. The fact is, I don't care about you. I have no opinion on your experiences. You've demonstrated zero human compassion on this forum, so I find it laughable that you expect any in return.

So my being raped is now leverage..

Aren't you a lovely human being..

Is there a point to posting that, Bells? Is this a not-so-subtle suggestion that all men who hate bigots like you are somehow akin to that psycho?

Irony. You don't even realize that you're proving my point. Or maybe you do, and just hope nobody notices.

Does it make you uncomfortable, Balerion? What? You don't like to see how some men view women?

Are you any different? Since you know, you're the guy who just accused me of using being brutally raped as leverage against men.. How can you even whine that you think I have leverage because I was raped, as though it's a good leverage to have?

No, I'm not. I'm simply a pain in your ass because I, among others, don't let you get away with your bigoted horseshit. We call you on it, which clearly makes you uncomfortable. Again, too bad for you.

So you enjoy abusing women who just told you they have been recently raped in a thread about misogyny, rape, and violence against women? So much so that you boast about it.

Interesting.

You're not a pain in my arse Balerion. You're just the guy who proved my point in this thread. The guy who is a pain in my arse is the guy who raped me.

No, I see you, specificially, as a man-hater, because you openly hate men. (Among other groups, including whites) And you resort to character assassination when you're called on it. Classic troll bullshit, but you're only making yourself look stupid.

Poor you.

You are the true victim here. And once again, you keep making my point for me. You don't see the misogyny in Rodger's words, because that is your level of normalcy.

Someone posted something in the other thread that sounds like it's just right up your alley, so much so that the arguments you have spouted in this thread would fit right in to what he linked.

Your point is "All men are evil rapists." Asguard checked you on that, and now you're throwing a tantrum, and attempting to use your rape as a hammer against anyone who disagrees with you. Shame on you.

Now show me where I said that "all men are evil rapists" as you are so quoting, as though they were my words. Go on, Balerion. I dare you to show me exactly where I declared that all men were evil rapists. The only one to use such words has been you so far.

 

[Balerion]

*double post*

 

[Balerion]

You don't need to. As I have often tried to explain history to you, it's clear that you choose to remain ignorant of it. Are you still uncomfortable with white ownership and the deliberate denial of rights and a voice to anyone who was not white (and for the most part, not male) in history? Why are you so defensive when anyone ever brings it up?

I'm certainly not defensive about history. What I am intolerant of are ideas that attempt to frame a problem as being one of gender, or race, or any other immutable quality. See, I'm not like you, I don't think people are evil because they are a certain race or gender. I don't think these problems can be made so superficially simple. But, then, I have a brain.

I'm open to having these discussions in a calm, intelligent manner. Unfortunately, that will never happen at sciforums, because you and Tiassa will always be there to attack and shame everyone who disagrees with you. You'll have conversations about them rather than with them, and resort to personal attacks and ad hominem simply because they don't share your fucked-up worldview.

I'd like you to show me exactly where I have condemned all men for the actions of the many. That's right Balerion, the many. Since over 65% of women are sexually harassed in the street, it's not the few who are doing it. But the many.

The study does not say 65% of women are sexually harassed in the street. It says 65% of women are harassed, and does not limit that to sexually-based aggression or violence. This also does not mean that 65% of men harass women. But as usual you'll ignore the facts and instead misrepresent them to suit your narrative.

So my being raped is now leverage..

You certainly seem to think so. Otherwise, why use it that way? You've tried to shame people with it, and later in this very post you accuse me of absuing you (as a rape victim) and as a shield against criticism.

Aren't you a lovely human being..

A damn sight lovelier than you, thank goodness. Yuck.

Does it make you uncomfortable, Balerion? What? You don't like to see how some men view women?

You think this psycho is representative of the male sex?

Are you any different? Since you know, you're the guy who just accused me of using being brutally raped as leverage against men.. How can you even whine that you think I have leverage because I was raped, as though it's a good leverage to have?

See? What, do you think being raped gives you special privilage to act like an idiot? I mean, I was molested as a child, but you don't see me using it as an excuse for my behavior.

So you enjoy abusing women who just told you they have been recently raped in a thread about misogyny, rape, and violence against women? So much so that you boast about it.

Let me make this crystal clear to you: My opinion of you as a disgusting, repugnant human being has nothing to do with your gender (unlike your opinion of me, which has everything to do with my gender...well, that and my race, of course) and everything to do with your behavior. You never cease to disgust me with how you act, and this latest bit about waving your rape around like a sword is just another instance of it, albeit a particuilarly loathsome one.

Comprende? I dislike Bells because she's given me reason to dislike her. I'd feel exactly the same way about you if you were a man.

You're not a pain in my arse Balerion. You're just the guy who proved my point in this thread. The guy who is a pain in my arse is the guy who raped me.

Again, wtf? What do you hope to gain from a comment like that if not the upper hand? Sympathy? I certainly hope you know you're barking up the wrong tree on that one.

Poor you.

You are the true victim here. And once again, you keep making my point for me. You don't see the misogyny in Rodger's words, because that is your level of normalcy.

I'm stunned that your takeaway from this is that Rodger was a misogynist. This is a guy who went on a murderous rampage, killing innocent people, and your main concern is how he felt about women? Christ, what's wrong with you?

Someone posted something in the other thread that sounds like it's just right up your alley, so much so that the arguments you have spouted in this thread would fit right in to what he linked.

No thanks. I already know it's got nothing to do with anything I've said, because it's coming from you and you don't tell the truth.

 

[Bells]

I'm certainly not defensive about history. What I am intolerant of are ideas that attempt to frame a problem as being one of gender, or race, or any other immutable quality. See, I'm not like you, I don't think people are evil because they are a certain race or gender. I don't think these problems can be made so superficially simple. But, then, I have a brain.

Again, show me where I claimed to hate men and white people?

I'm more than willing to have these discussions openly and honestly, but they'll never happen so long as you and Tiassa are here to take a giant shit on every effort, to call people names and attempt to shame them into bailing on the discussion or responding so rudely that you have an excuse to ban them.

What discussions?

You mean the ones where you are whining that I am a rape victim and it somehow gives me some kind of leverage? Wow, what a great thing to have happened to me! No, really, what kind of sick puppy are you Balerion? I described my experience for a very particular reason. A lot of women hide it in shame or are shamed into not speaking about it.. By men like you and it is exactly what you are doing. Trying to shame me into remaining silent because you are sick enough to believe that being a rape victim gives women leverage over men.

The link does not say 65% of women are sexually harassed in the street. It says 65% of women are harassed, and the harassment is not exclusively sexual in nature. Nor does that mean that most men harass women. But you'll ignore those inconvenient facts and misrepresent the study anyway. Keep on truckin, right?

You are absolutely correct.

46% were harassed by a sexual nature. Others were simply harassed for no other reason... And this makes it better? More acceptable?

You're the one using it that way. How many times have you brought it up now? How many times have you done so as a means of shaming the person you're arguing with?

What is wrong with you?

I have to ask because your current whine that I am a victim of rape, yes, I mentioned it again, has to be seen to be believed. So I need to ask, why are you digging this hole of yours that little bit deeper? Trying to strike water?

A damn sight lovelier than you, thank goodness Fucking yuck.

Because you think this will help you right now?

You think this psycho represents men?

Read it again and tell me where I said that?

Pay particular attention to the word "some". Then learn how to comprehend it and put it in context.

I don't know how much more clear I can be on this point: I think you are a repugnant, disgusting human being. My opinion of you has nothing to do with your race or gender (which is more than I can say about your view of me, or should we revist you accusing me of living in "white privilege?") and everything to do with your behavior. You have brought up the fact that you were raped only to use it as a weapon. You're not trying to enlighten anyone by sharing your experience, you're trying to shame dissenters. This is the latest reason I think you're awful.

The dissenter's here are those who believe that what Elliot Rodger did was good and acceptable. That it was something that could be defended.. You didn't click on the link I provided before, did you?

Whatever you may think of me, Balerion, my disgust in you has nothing to do with your gender (I assume you are male after you once tried to flirtatiously ask me to call you by your real name, which I refused) or your race (I don't even know what your race is). It has everything to do with your appalling behaviour. I can only be thankful that not all men on this site are like you, because if it was, then no woman or male with more than 3 active brain cells would want to post here. The latest disgusting behaviour is your whine that I apparently have leverage for being raped.. Umm.. Because this is a good thing? No, really, think about it for a few seconds. You are whining that a rape victim has leverage over men like you because she is a rape victim. I never used my rape to shame Asguard. You, on the other hand, have used my rape to try to shame me into silence because you find any discussion about misogyny in society to be "man hating".

Whom did I abuse? You?

Let's go there: How did I "abuse" you? And why do you think being recently raped means you are free to act the way you do? I was molested as a child; you don't see me pulling that card out to excuse my behavior.

I am very sorry for what was done to you as a child Balerion. You need to get some help. Because you are a very angry man and a very hateful one and perhaps, your horrific experiences as a child have and do affect your frankly appalling behaviour.

Again, wtf? Why even go there? Sympathy? You're barking up the wrong tree on that one, dude.

No Balerion. I would never expect sympathy from someone who is incapable of understanding the word.

No, poor you. Right? Isn't that what you want to hear?

*Raises eyebrows*

I think it's stunning that you think Roger's greatest crime is being a misogynist. This is a man that went on a murderous rampage, and you're worried about how he felt about women? Seriously?

I think it is just sad that you still don't understand what I said. His greatest crime was what he did. What led him to do it, however? What led those police officers to believe that he was normal and polite and balanced?

I'm not going to bother, since I'm sure it's just more of your lies and misrepresentations. And, honestly, I couldn't care less what you think about anything.

Sadly, I couldn't make what you have said any worse even if I wanted to.

Get some help Balerion. Speak to someone.